Dalinar's Honorblade?

[Moogle]

I have to say that the most likely thing to me seems to be that he is indeed Taln, that Honorblades don't affect the eye color of immortal Heralds the same way they do normal humans, and that the blade he initially has is an honorblade, but not that which Dalinar eventually bonds in the Shattered Plains. I know that Brandon plays a lot of games in his writing, but this one doesn't seem all that complicated. 

 

But why would it not affect the eye color of immortal Heralds? It's an easy explanation that fits the evidence, but I don't see any reason why it should be true. Theories don't become more likely just because they're convenient. Eye color being changed seems to be the result of some Spiritual influences - you bond a Shardblade, it adds something onto your spiritweb which changes your eye color. Heralds should not be immune to this for the same reason that Returned still die when they are stabbed with a sword.

 

Isnt Talns eye color normally brown, or something close to brown? So maybe there isn't anything going on there.

 

Sure, but if he had an Honorblade out he was bonded to, his eye color should be tan.

[kaellok he/him]

Perhaps whatever methods he used to travel to or from Braize broke the bond? His death apparently teleported him back to Braize, which might have broken the bond in the process. Or perhaps it happened on the way back. I don't think that he swam, though. If he came from the Origin (or any of the seas, really) surely he would have dried off by the time he reached Kholinar.  We know that inhaling Stormlight creates frost, so perhaps the water was melted frost. That would fit with a more direct and magical method of travel.

When Szeth "died", it broke his bond with his Honorblade.  It's not a large leap to think that when a Herald dies, the bond is also broken.  I tend to think that he materialized in much the same way as Shardblade do, and the damp on him is from similar reasons.  It honestly makes much more sense than "he sure has been swimming a long ways!"  After all, I don't recall the passage saying that his clothes were completely soaked the entire way through, which would be the case if he'd gone for a bit of a swim.

[rhandric]

 

That WoB was a mistake, apparently. Here's the answer to a clarifying question:

 

Source:

 

Well that's interesting. I wonder whether the first one was a mistake, or implied something deeper - perhaps that the bond that a human makes with a blade is different from the bond a Herald makes with the same blade.

 

When Szeth "died", it broke his bond with his Honorblade.  It's not a large leap to think that when a Herald dies, the bond is also broken.  I tend to think that he materialized in much the same way as Shardblade do, and the damp on him is from similar reasons.  It honestly makes much more sense than "he sure has been swimming a long ways!"  After all, I don't recall the passage saying that his clothes were completely soaked the entire way through, which would be the case if he'd gone for a bit of a swim.

Except in the Prelude it specifically states that if a Herald dies, their Honorblade disappears - which didn't happen to Jezrien's Honorblade when Szeth died while wielding it. This tells me that the bond of a Herald and Blade is...I don't know, stronger perhaps...compared to that of a human and Blade. Of course, the difference might not be in the bond between user and Blade, and instead is a difference in the user themselves -- since the Herald returns to Braize when they die, they're not truly dead, and perhaps the Blade recognizes that.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

But why would it not affect the eye color of immortal Heralds? It's an easy explanation that fits the evidence, but I don't see any reason why it should be true. Theories don't become more likely just because they're convenient. Eye color being changed seems to be the result of some Spiritual influences - you bond a Shardblade, it adds something onto your spiritweb which changes your eye color. Heralds should not be immune to this for the same reason that Returned still die when they are stabbed with a sword.

 

 

Sure, but if he had an Honorblade out he was bonded to, his eye color should be tan.

 

I'm just trying to take the Occam's Razor view on this one, theories also don't become more likely because they're complicated. 

 

We only have 1 fairly confirmed instance of an Honorblade wielder and that person is a mortal (I guess 2 if you count while Kaladin is holding Szeth's blade at the end of WoR). Maybe Nalan is wielding his honorblade, but we don't get any special mentions of eye color in the Lift chapters, and given the level of darkness descriptors that Lift uses to describe him, if his eyes were glowing or light in opposition to the rest of his demeanor I would expect it to be mentioned. So, either he is not wielding his own honorblade, OR they don't affect Heralds in the same way. It may be that only mortal surgebinders eyes change. If Nalan's eyes are changed when drawing his blade, I suppose it would actually be the only color change that isn't to lighteyes since Smokestone is a glassy black stone

 

The Heralds are immortal apart from their honorblades. Who knows how else they are different from mortals and how the bonds affect them? it could be that they already possess the right sDNA to access the surges and the Honorblades guide that somehow or magnify it, like the Mists snapping people who otherwise wouldn't. For Heralds, they may already have the right sDNA so ti does't need to overlay anything and therefore no eye color change. For mortals, it does.

 

Brandon loves consistency, but there is still consistency in: "it affects mortals one way and heralds another", just 2 different consistencies.

 

I'm not sure what Returned being stabbed by a sword has to do with consistency in the magic systems, Returned on Nalthis are different from Heralds and surgebinding on Roshar. Roshar and the magics are must more heavily invested than Awakening. A mortal on Roshar who is a surgebinder could survive a stab wound, but not a Returned on Nalthis (side note, I wonder about Vasher and his use of Stormlight related to Stormlight healing...), that has no bearing on whether a bonded Honorblade affects Heralds and mortals in the same way. 

 

You like your theory on this, I like mine, it's ok!

[Localconfusi0n]

Maybe that, since each surge is linked to an essence, gem, etc., the ability to use the surge, not the blade, is when an ey color change occurs. So if the Heralds always have the ability to surgebind their eye color is consistant regardless of whether or not they have their Honorblade. Since a mortal must gain/earn the power of surgebinding they have an eye color change when they do. Don't Szeths eyes change both when hes wielding his blade and when hes surgebinding? It would explain a lot.

[Sweetheart]

I'm not sure where the honorblade went but I noticed in the illustration "Shallan's Sketcbook: Shardplate" (Kindle) (I think it would be at the end of chapter 44) that Adolin is fighting someone with a blade that looks like a cleaver. Has anyone mentioned that or thought it could be a clue for the one Dalinar ends up with.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Sweetheart

[Darkness he/him]

Heralds can't Surgebind without their Honorblades. They do have other abilities though (i.e. super-reflexes).

Personally I like the theory that there are two levels of bonding to an Honorblades, a prime bond to the Herald, and (a) secondary bond(s) to mortals.

I'm just throwing this out there, but it's entirely possible that the Honorblades bind the Heralds, rather than the other way around. Taln's eye colour might not change because the Blade could actually be summoning him in a way, which could also explain why his muscles are wet; he came from the same place as dead Shardblades (note that Syl and Pattern don't appear wet when summoned into Shardblade form).

Theory: Dead Shardblades come from the same dead place Kelsier hung out in Mistborn after he died. Kelsier was able to stick around because he had a reason to, and because he had a tie to the physical realm. He was able to reach back into the realms to talk to Scoot because he held part of Preservations power for a time (investiture).

Dead radiantspren are able to stick around because they still have their husks, Shardblades, tying them to the Physical realm. Note that 10 heartbeats is the time necessary to 'revive' a dead Shardblade. I propose that means drawing them into the Physical from 'behind' the 3 realms (but not 'beyond' as in 'God beyond'... that refers to the place after moving on from being dead, like Tindwyl). Another similarity is that Shardblades require investiture (the gemstone fabrial) to move between the space 'behind' and the Physical realm, using that physical connection they have.

Similarly, I propose that when Heralds die, they go to that limbo space 'behind' the 3 realms until their physical connection (Honorblade) allows them to be pulled them back. I don't know if dead radiantspren choose to come back every time, or if they are just summoned, but I'd think that Radiants choose to come back once the torture is too much, and they use the tie to their Honorblades (which are tied to Honor --> Roshar) to do it. I don't think power is expended to do it, but I do think enough investiture needs to be present (gemstone fabrial, Preservation, Honorblade).

Long story short, I think Taln came from limbo, same as dead Shardblades do, and not through Shadesmar, like what Jasnah does. I don't think there is water in limbo, but rather that - as a function of energy conservation - moving matter/energy/investiture into the Physical realm requires that energy/matter also moves into the limbo space. Hence, when Taln/Shardblades/Stormlight is brought into/actualized in the Physical realm, thermal energy leaves, causing water vapour to condense around the summoned object/source of investiture.

 

That theory just kind of spewed forth, sorry about any unclarity. I've been thinking about it for awhile, but never tried actually formulating it.

[laxrulz777 he/him]

Could the honorblades simply change the eye color to match their owner Herald? Do we have anything that contradicts that theory?

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Could the honorblades simply change the eye color to match their owner Herald? Do we have anything that contradicts that theory?

 

Here's a thread where I brought this up: link. Read the next few posts (as well as the thread Moogle links to).

 

Edit: The thread Moogle links to doesn't bring up the eye-color issue until around page 4, it would seem. Just a heads up.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Blaze1616

[laxrulz777 he/him]

 

Here's a thread where I brought this up: link. Read the next few posts (as well as the thread Moogle links to).

 

I was thinking that the Heralds aren't simply 10 random Rosharians (My personal theory is that they're Returned from Nalthis but they could be any off-world origin). And they have a variety of eye colors just like you or I. Their Honorblades simply change the eye color of their wielder to the eye color of the Herald.

 

Becoming a KR lightens your eyes (and so does bonding a shard blade right?) for reasons that, right now, consist of "magic" and not much more. Until we get on-screen appearances of more of the Heralds, this is one that will continue to stump us, I suspect.

[Moogle]

I was thinking that the Heralds aren't simply 10 random Rosharians (My personal theory is that they're Returned from Nalthis but they could be any off-world origin). And they have a variety of eye colors just like you or I. Their Honorblades simply change the eye color of their wielder to the eye color of the Herald.

 

The Honorblades were crafted by Honor. Why would the Honorblades be intrinsically linked to the eye color of his Heralds? Why would Honor add that feature? Or if he didn't, why would people not born on Roshar become intrinsically linked to its magic system such that artifacts of it are linked to their physical features? I don't know, I'm just not feeling this theory. It feels to me like the casual link should be (Magic system) -> (Physical attribute changes in humans) rather than the opposite way.

 

I think it makes more sense for the ten Honorblades to be linked to the gem types associated with the ten Essences and ten Radiant Orders. We've already got those fundamentals. Kaladin's eyes turn sapphire, Syl glows blue, Pattern glows garnet and Lightweavers are associated with garnet, Stonewards (associated with topaz) have tan eyes, etc.

 

As to the reasons behind eye color changes: I suspect it's operating under the same mechanics as Hemalurgy. Spiritual changes result in Physical changes. Mess with your sDNA and it shows in the Physical. Radiants/Shardblade wielders get a bond to a Splinter, which seems pretty serious. It would make sense that eyes (which are supposedly the window to the soul) would be the first things to display this change.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle

[laxrulz777 he/him]

I think it makes more sense for the ten Honorblades to be linked to the gem types associated with the ten Essences and ten Radiant Orders. We've already got those fundamentals. Kaladin's eyes turn blue, Syl glows blue, Pattern glows garnet and Lightweavers are associated with garnet, Stonewards (associated with topaz) have tan eyes, etc.

Isn't Shallan a light eyed (blue?) though? There's no evidence that Shallan's eyes are Garnet (red or brown even).

 

I think the Honorblade rules COULD be very different from everything else. For all we know, the Honorblades inherited properties from their wielder (I mean, these guys did wield these things for hundreds of thousands of years... and the bond had to be strong enough to survive 1000s of years between desolations). I think you're right... there are definitely holes with this theory but I don't see anything that outright disproves it.

[Moogle]

Isn't Shallan a light eyed (blue?) though? There's no evidence that Shallan's eyes are Garnet (red or brown even).

 

WoB is that this is because she's already lighteyed. It's heavily implied that if she were darkeyed, she'd have garnet eyes right now. So, as speculation, she already has the sDNA for light eyes, and Pattern has yet to override this. I imagine she'll get garnet eyes when she's said her fourth truth. Or it might be that Pattern never does override her.

 

Questioner: My question has to do with the color of Shallan’s eyes currently, because we’ve noticed over the books that Kaladin’s eyes, as he’s continued to use his Surge, changed to lighter and lighter blue.  Whereas one could argue that Shallan is farther in her Ideals than Kaladin is, yet her eyes have not changed at all.

Brandon: Right, ‘cause they were already light.

Questioner: ‘Cause they were already light?  So it only affects lightness or darkness in the eyes, not necessarily any other color?

Brandon: It’s not like it is-- It’s not like it’s saying “Light minus 50%”.

Questioner: It’s not like Honor is blue and--

Brandon: No.  It is not.  It is just kind of the way that the changed the Stormlight is making the body and certain people are already descended from people who had repeated, over time, changes by the body which stopped physically… That’s not to say that all lighteyes that’s where they came from.  There are some that are natural mutations.

(source)

 

Shallash's eyes are currently violet, so if we see someone wielding the Lightweaver Honorblade get violet eyes in book 3, we'll have strong evidence for your theory. Until then, I'm pretty content in the Radiant orders - gem -  eye color correlation. The only tricky thing is Herald + Honorblade eye colors, and I'm still 80% sure that the ten Honorblades cause their wielders to have eye colors matching the Radiant Order the Herald was associated with even if we haven't had proof.

 

In case you haven't seen me rave about it, I consider "Taln" not having tan eyes like the Stonewards to be major evidence against the theory that he had an Honorblade at the end of WoK. Szeth and Kaladin ended up the exact same color eyes - this is super coincidental if Jezrien's eye color determines the color of the Honorblade, and Jezrien had blue eyes independent of the Blade. It just makes so much more sense to me that (Windrunner powers) -> (blue eyes).

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle

[laxrulz777 he/him]

WoB is that this is because she's already lighteyed. It's heavily implied that if she were darkeyed, she'd have garnet eyes right now. So, as speculation, she already has the sDNA for light eyes, and Pattern has yet to override this. I imagine she'll get garnet eyes when she's said her fourth truth. Or it might be that Pattern never does override her.

 

 

Shallash's eyes are currently violet, so if we see someone wielding the Lightweaver Honorblade get violet eyes in book 3, we'll have strong evidence for your theory. Until then, I'm pretty content in the Radiant orders - gem -  eye color correlation. The only tricky thing is Herald + Honorblade eye colors, and I'm still 80% sure that the ten Honorblades cause their wielders to have eye colors matching the Radiant Order the Herald was associated with even if we haven't had proof.

 

In case you haven't seen me rave about it, I consider "Taln" not having tan eyes like the Stonewards to be major evidence against the theory that he had an Honorblade at the end of WoK. Szeth and Kaladin ended up the exact same color eyes - this is super coincidental if Jezrien's eye color determines the color of the Honorblade, and Jezrien had blue eyes independent of the Blade. It just makes so much more sense to me that (Windrunner powers) -> (blue eyes).

 

Hadn't seen that WoB... thanks.

 

"Taln" is a really weird case. He might have the Honorblade but, because he hasn't surged in thousands of years they've returned to normal (don't Szeth's eyes go back and forth?). I think we can only judge so much from "Taln" anyways (a big part of the mystery for me is why Odium would even allow the Honorblades on Braize... ) and the fact that we keep having to put "" around "Taln" is another limiting factor

[Moogle]

"Taln" is a really weird case. He might have the Honorblade but, because he hasn't surged in thousands of years they've returned to normal (don't Szeth's eyes go back and forth?). I think we can only judge so much from "Taln" anyways (a big part of the mystery for me is why Odium would even allow the Honorblades on Braize... ) and the fact that we keep having to put "" around "Taln" is another limiting factor

 

It doesn't matter if he Surges or not. Holding the Blade is the only thing that causes Szeth's eyes to change color. Holding Stormlight doesn't do it, Surgebinding doesn't do it, holding the Blade is what does it. Proof here. (Unless I messed up on the proof, in which case let me know.)

 

"Taln" holding an Honorblade should cause his eyes to change color in my mind. It's possible this is not the case, and Heralds' innate Investiture is enough to resist this effect from an Honorblade, but I have never found that argument very compelling.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle

[laxrulz777 he/him]

It doesn't matter if he Surges or not. Holding the Blade is the only thing that causes Szeth's eyes to change color. Holding Stormlight doesn't do it, Surgebinding doesn't do it, holding the Blade is what does it. Proof here. (Unless I messed up on the proof, in which case let me know.)

 

"Taln" holding an Honorblade should cause his eyes to change color in my mind. It's possible this is not the case, and Heralds' innate Investiture is enough to resist this effect from an Honorblade, but I have never found that argument very compelling.

Nope... no proof messed up... he makes it pretty clear. Unless he's always holding stormlight, this is solid...

[WeiryWriter he/him]

WoB is that this is because she's already lighteyed. It's heavily implied that if she were darkeyed, she'd have garnet eyes right now. So, as speculation, she already has the sDNA for light eyes, and Pattern has yet to override this. I imagine she'll get garnet eyes when she's said her fourth truth. Or it might be that Pattern never does override her.

 

Did you mean fifth oath? Because she's already said her fourth truth as of the end of WoR (since Kaladin is at stage 3 and Shallan is a stage beyond him).

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Did you mean fifth oath? Because she's already said her fourth truth as of the end of WoR (since Kaladin is at stage 3 and Shallan is a stage beyond him).

 

Being at stage 4 would mean she spoke the first oath, and three truths.

[Moogle]

Did you mean fifth oath? Because she's already said her fourth truth as of the end of WoR (since Kaladin is at stage 3 and Shallan is a stage beyond him).

 

As Blaze said, I meant First Ideal + 4 truths. I really should have been more clear and said something like 'when she's said all the truths she can'. The First Ideal thing is a little awkward.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Ah okay, I get you now.

[laxrulz777 he/him]

As Blaze said, I meant First Ideal + 4 truths. I really should have been more clear and said something like 'when she's said all the truths she can'. The First Ideal thing is a little awkward.

Correct me if I'm wrong but we've only actually SEEN her say two truths. Is there an assumed truth she might have said when she summoned her first shardblade? If so, I wonder if we'll ever find out what it is.

[Moogle]

Correct me if I'm wrong but we've only actually SEEN her say two truths. Is there an assumed truth she might have said when she summoned her first shardblade? If so, I wonder if we'll ever find out what it is.

 

She was apparently quite advanced as a child, and by WoB she's now one step ahead of Kaladin (which would put her at First Ideal + 3 truths). So there would have to be at least one off-screen truth she's said. (I'm not entirely sure if the scene at the end of WoR counts as her saying another truth, but I would guess it does.)

[laxrulz777 he/him]

She was apparently quite advanced as a child, and by WoB she's now one step ahead of Kaladin (which would put her at First Ideal + 3 truths). So there would have to be at least one off-screen truth she's said. (I'm not entirely sure if the scene at the end of WoR counts as her saying another truth, but I would guess it does.)

this thread has a discussion on it... at least some people believe her "I am afraid" declaration is one... I think I agree with them given Pattern's echo back of "This is true"...