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Dalinar's Honorblade?


leester1478

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So, at the end of WoR, when Dalinar bonds the Stormfather, the Stormfather refers to Dalinar's blade as an "abomination". Is not Dalinar's blade Talen'elat's Honorblade? Why would the Stormfather refer to it as an abomination, when it is not a spren corpse?

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It is not an Honorblade, you can tell by the fact it screams momentarily before Dalinar breaks the bond.  It is not the same blade that "Taln" shows up with at the end of tWoK, that one is described as a spike, while Dalinar's is more cleaver like. Brandon talks about it here:
 

Question

At the very end of Words of Radiance, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him. Should that particular Blade have been safe?

Brandon Sanderson

No it should not have. It's a clue that something has happened. There are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is.

Question

Because Option 2 is that it's unsafe to touch an honorblade, but there's no evidence of that.

Brandon Sanderson

There is no evidence of that. There's much stronger evidence that something else is going on.

Question

Did Hoid switch out the blades?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

 
(source)
 
Also, I'm moving this to the WoR spoiler forum.

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Of note, we don't even know if the Taln that appears at the end of TWoK is the actual Taln-the-Herald.

 

Also, the Blade that "Taln" had in TWoK didn't cause "Taln" to have different colored eyes, so either it was not an Honorblade or else "Taln" was not bonded to it. (Or else Honorblades don't, in general, change your eye color, but they do for Szeth so they should for Taln).

 

There's a lot of mystery in regards to that Blade.

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Do we know that it's the Honorblade that causes the eye color change for Szeth, or the use of the abilities gifted to him by the Blade?

Plus, in WoK, 'Taln' has brown eyes, which might be the color associated with Talus (the stone is Topaz, but that isn't enough to determine the associated color).

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Of note, we don't even know if the Taln that appears at the end of TWoK is the actual Taln-the-Herald.

 

Also, the Blade that "Taln" had in TWoK didn't cause "Taln" to have different colored eyes, so either it was not an Honorblade or else "Taln" was not bonded to it. (Or else Honorblades don't, in general, change your eye color, but they do for Szeth so they should for Taln).

 

There's a lot of mystery in regards to that Blade.

 

I just had a thought about that after the SA3 reading. (SA3 Spoilers)

 

 

 

He crested a hill, inspecting the landscape, as he did Syl zipped down in front of him, a ribbon of light, “Your eyes are brown again,” she noted.  It took a few years without touching stormlight or summoning hisa Shardblade, once he did either thing his eyes would bleed to a glassy light blue, almost glowing.  A few hours later they’d fade again.  Syl found the variation fascinating.

 

There are two possibilities I see in regards to Taln's eyes being not being light:

Possibility 1: Honorblades don't make your eyes light.

 

Reading through the prologue again, I noticed that Szeth infuses himself with Stormlight before he summons his blade, so that could be a misdirection due to character perception, but I see this as the less likely of the two.

 

Possibility 2: Taln's eyes had already faded back.

 

I know this is an extremely rough copy, but here it says if he summoned his shardblade, but it doesn't say anything about keeping it out. So if Taln had his Honorblade summoned for hours beforehand (and Kaladin to for that matter,) their eyes would fade back to regular. It's only summoning that's specified, so this seems to me like a plausible solution to that problem.

 

 

Edit: Ninja'd somewhat

Edited by EMTrevor
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Do we know that it's the Honorblade that causes the eye color change for Szeth, or the use of the abilities gifted to him by the Blade?

Plus, in WoK, 'Taln' has brown eyes, which might be the color associated with Talus (the stone is Topaz, but that isn't enough to determine the associated color).

 

Szeth's eyes change specifically when he has his Honorblade out, and they immediately fade when he unsummons it. His usage of Stormlight does not change his eye color. From WoR:

“Did I Lash you?” the assassin asked in accented Alethi. His eyes had darkened, losing their sapphire blue quality. “To the ground? But why did you not die falling? No. I must have Lashed you upward. Impossible.” He stepped back.

 

He was still Infused with Stormlight at the time, as he half-Lashes himself a few seconds later. Also, he mentions that it's only summoning the Blade that changes his eye color in WoK.

 

In regards to Taln: Szeth has blue eyes described exactly like Kaladin's. Taln's order, the Stonewards, have tan eyes (as we see in WoK). Taln's eyes should be tan, as apparently that is the color associated with Talus.

 

I just had a thought about that after the SA3 reading. (SA3 Spoilers)

 

 

There are two possibilities I see in regards to Taln's eyes being not being light:

Possibility 1: Honorblades don't make your eyes light.

 

Reading through the prologue again, I noticed that Szeth infuses himself with Stormlight before he summons his blade, so that could be a misdirection due to character perception, but I see this as the less likely of the two.

 

Possibility 2: Taln's eyes had already faded back.

 

I know this is an extremely rough copy, but here it says if he summoned his shardblade, but it doesn't say anything about keeping it out. So if Taln had his Honorblade summoned for hours beforehand (and Kaladin to for that matter,) their eyes would fade back to regular. It's only summoning that's specified, so this seems to me like a plausible solution to that problem.

 

 

Edit: Ninja'd somewhat

 

"Taln", when he arrives at the gates of Kholinar, is described thusly:

His muscles glistened, wet as if he’d just swum a great distance. To his side, he carried a massive Shardblade, point down, sticking about a finger’s width into the stone, his hand on the hilt. The Blade reflected torchlight; it was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike.

 

If he's had his Blade out for hours, his muscles should have dried. (Presumably, he swam from the Origin or else traveled the same way that Shardblades do, which would have left condensation on him.)

 

Because of what I explained above, I think both of your possibilities are unlikely. To use Sherlock's methodology, we've removed all the likely candidates, and now we've only got one explanation: "Taln" was not bonded to an Honorblade. It does raise the question of why the Blades were swapped, though.

Edited by Moogle
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Good catch on the eye color change in WoR. 

 

 

 

If he's had his Blade out for hours, his muscles should have dried. (Presumably, he swam from the Origin or else traveled the same way that Shardblades do, which would have left condensation on him.)

 

 

I'm kind of confused on this. If he wasn't bonded to the blade, he would have to had carried it for hours if he had swam, as he couldn't summon it later. If he came in the same way that Shardblades do, then it's still very possible he still had his Blade out prior to that travelling. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, if it's impossible for him to carry it as you suggest, than it's also impossible for him not be bonded to the Blade, as that would also require him to carry it.

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I'm kind of confused on this. If he wasn't bonded to the blade, he would have to had carried it for hours if he had swam, as he couldn't summon it later. If he came in the same way that Shardblades do, then it's still very possible he still had his Blade out prior to that travelling. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, if it's impossible for him to carry it as you suggest, than it's also impossible for him not be bonded to the Blade, as that would also require him to carry it.

 

I don't think it's possible to swim while carrying a six-foot long sword, which is something I should have added. My bad.

 

I have no idea where Taln came from, but I do doubt that, if he swam, he had his Blade out at that time. Carrying a six-foot long object through water seems like it would be very difficult to me. If it was bonded to him, he wouldn't need it out. That's why I said his muscles should have been dry if he had his Blade out for hours.

 

I also don't think that the eye color change is temporary. While you have your Honorblade out, your eye color should remain "permanently" changed, going by Szeth. I grant we don't know if he's had it out for hours, but it would make more sense if it were permanent anyways.

Edited by Moogle
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Good catch on those details. However...

 

Unfortunately, we don't get a description of the color of Jez or Kalak's eyes in the Prelude -- since the Honorblades were made (specifically?) for them, it's possible their eyes aren't affected in the same way.

 

To expand on this - we know (WoB) that you can't bond an Honorblade (source). We also know that when the one who owns the Honorblade dies, the blade disappears. From there, and knowing that Szeth's (Jezrien's, more accurately) blade did not disappear, the "bond" between the bearer of the Blade and the Blade is different from that of the Owner of the Blade and the same. It's possible that this extends to the effects on the eyes.

Edited by rhandric
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To expand on this - we know (WoB) that you can't bond an Honorblade (source). We also know that when the one who owns the Honorblade dies, the blade disappears. From there, and knowing that Szeth's (Jezrien's, more accurately) blade did not disappear, the "bond" between the bearer of the Blade and the Blade is different from that of the Owner of the Blade and the same. It's possible that this extends to the effects on the eyes.

 

That WoB was a mistake, apparently. Here's the answer to a clarifying question:

 

Source:

Q:  You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?

A:  Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped.
Edited by Kurkistan
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That WoB was a mistake, apparently. Here's the answer to a clarifying question:

 

Source:

 

So the blade that Taln drops at the end of WoK (or the beginning of WoR, I do not remember) was indeed the honorblade as it did not disappeared.... So it was indeed swapped.

Edited by maxal
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So the blade that Taln drops at the end of WoK (or the beginning of WoR, I do not remember) was indeed the honorblade as it did not disappeared.... So it was indeed swapped.

 

Regular un-bonded Shardblades also don't disappear when dropped, so that doesn't tell us too much unfortunately.

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Regular un-bonded Shardblades also don't disappear when dropped, so that doesn't tell us too much unfortunately.

 

True, but it is more likely it was a honorblade... I mean, who walks around with an unbounded shardblade? The only ones we have seen were Renarin and Moash and, in both case, the blade was firmly tied to their back for bounding.

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I mean, who walks around with an unbounded shardblade?

 

An insane guy who thinks he's a Herald? I don't know, the whole situation is weird.

 

Taln's eyes were dark, so he would have been walking around with an unbonded Honorblade (else his eyes would be a different color), which is just as crazy as an unbonded Shardblade.

Edited by Moogle
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An insane guy who thinks he's a Herald? I don't know, the whole situation is weird.

 

Taln's eyes were dark, so he would have been walking around with an unbonded Honorblade (else his eyes would be a different color), which is just as crazy as an unbonded Shardblade.

 

Actually, psychologically speaking, it might have been a sort of focus for him, much in the way that Renarin's box is for his Autism. Dementia patients sometimes display similar types of focus on certain objects, especially if they had meaning to them in life. It's not entirely crazy for him to just carry it, but mostly because he is crazy in some way or other. 

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Actually, psychologically speaking, it might have been a sort of focus for him, much in the way that Renarin's box is for his Autism. Dementia patients sometimes display similar types of focus on certain objects, especially if they had meaning to them in life. It's not entirely crazy for him to just carry it, but mostly because he is crazy in some way or other. 

 

This makes sense, but why was he not bonded to it in that case?

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Perhaps whatever methods he used to travel to or from Braize broke the bond? His death apparently teleported him back to Braize, which might have broken the bond in the process. Or perhaps it happened on the way back. I don't think that he swam, though. If he came from the Origin (or any of the seas, really) surely he would have dried off by the time he reached Kholinar.  We know that inhaling Stormlight creates frost, so perhaps the water was melted frost. That would fit with a more direct and magical method of travel.

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We know that inhaling Stormlight creates frost, so perhaps the water was melted frost. That would fit with a more direct and magical method of travel.

 

This is a good thought, but Jasnah is not covered in water when she does her teleporting trick, so I'm not sure on this. There's quite a few rivers around Kholinar, so it would make more sense if "Taln" swam through those.

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This is a good thought, but Jasnah is not covered in water when she does her teleporting trick, so I'm not sure on this. There's quite a few rivers around Kholinar, so it would make more sense if "Taln" swam through those.

Yeah, but... swimming all the way to Kholinar... it just seems like it would be so much easier to walk. And it all depends on how Heralds move from world to world. Shadesmar does seem the most likely, but it's possible that there's some sort of other teleportation thing. Jasnah's teleportation is basically just walking through Shadesmar. The Heralds probably do it differently, since they disappear and go back to Braize when they die. Maybe there's someone with a Regrowth fabrial who takes them into Shadesmar and heals them or something, but that seems kind of unlikely. Surely there would be some mention of that sort of thing.

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If a hearld is killed during a desolation he goes somewhere to be tortured, maybe when he returns for the next desolation he reappears where he was killed.

Taln was killed defending a pass near a northern waterway, so what if he was killed in the water and reappeared in the water? or waterway shifted from where it had been and he landed in it?

Would explain why was wet, also would explain why arrived at kholinar, an not any other location,

Also is there a WoB that all the hearlds were lighteyes? or is that an assumption?

Finally as per the blade, WoB is that Hoid did not switch the blade, so is it possible that Bordin was the one who switched it?

Or was it one of the blades that Adolin won in his duels that Dalinar bonded?

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The two swords are described differently, end of WoK is a "six foot..." "spike", while the one Dalinar has bonded is "wider than most, almost cleaverlike..." The cleaverlike one both feels wrong to Dalinar, even in that chapter, and also screams when he does finally more fully bond with the Stormfather and summon it. While Kaladin has no problems holding/touching the Honorblade that Szeth dropped.

 

I have to say that the most likely thing to me seems to be that he is indeed Taln, that Honorblades don't affect the eye color of immortal Heralds the same way they do normal humans, and that the blade he initially has is an honorblade, but not that which Dalinar eventually bonds in the Shattered Plains. I know that Brandon plays a lot of games in his writing, but this one doesn't seem all that complicated. 

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If a hearld is killed during a desolation he goes somewhere to be tortured, maybe when he returns for the next desolation he reappears where he was killed.

Taln was killed defending a pass near a northern waterway, so what if he was killed in the water and reappeared in the water? or waterway shifted from where it had been and he landed in it?

Would explain why was wet, also would explain why arrived at kholinar, an not any other location,

Also is there a WoB that all the hearlds were lighteyes? or is that an assumption?

Finally as per the blade, WoB is that Hoid did not switch the blade, so is it possible that Bordin was the one who switched it?

Or was it one of the blades that Adolin won in his duels that Dalinar bonded?

The Heralds were not all lighteyes. However, the Honorblade makes Szeth's eyes change color, which is why Taln's eye color matters.

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Isnt Talns eye color normally brown, or something close to brown? So maybe there isn't anything going on there. Also, if his blade was Bonded to him, he would be able to dismiss it at will, or atleast Szeth was so it makes sense, plus we have some suggestive WoB that "Taln" isn't really "Taln" so maybe the real Herald was captured by some insane surviving member of the Envisagers maybe? Then that Envisager took his place?

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Well we know, at the very least, that the "Taln" we saw at the end of WoK is the same one as we see in WoR.
 
Source:

Q:  The person who arrived at the gates of Kholinar, the one you refuse to acknowledge as Talenel - is that person the same as the one delivered to the warcamps?
A:  Yes.

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