Marmota he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) Hello! Please help me out with this doubt of mine... It is based on this WoB: Q: How many oaths can a Radiant swear?A: There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin. Kaladin had said the second specific oath at the end of WoR. I though that Shallan had said 2 truths as well ( That she is the murderer of her father, at the end of WoK. And that she is the murderer of her mother, at the end of WoR) Otherwise, wouldnt they both be at "level 3" of the KR? With 3 oaths made? Thanks for anyone who helps EDIT: Adding a question. I didnt actually get the question. I though that the number of oaths was explicity 5. Right? Edited August 18, 2014 by Marmota
hoser he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 Hello! Please help me out with this doubt of mine... It is based on this WoB: Q: How many oaths can a Radiant swear? A: There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin. Kaladin had said the second specific oath at the end of WoR. I though that Shallan had said 2 truths as well ( That she is the murderer of her father, at the end of WoK. And that she is the murderer of her mother, at the end of WoR) Otherwise, wouldnt they both be at "level 3" of the KR? With 3 oaths made? Thanks for anyone who helps EDIT: Adding a question. I didnt actually get the question. I though that the number of oaths was explicity 5. Right? Shallan apparently said the first Oath and enough truths to be able to use Pattern as a Shardblade to kill her mom. It seems like that must be the shared oath and two truths, because at the end of WoR she is one level more advanced than Kaladin. After her mom died, she regressed and "I killed my father" must have gotten her back to third level. This is based on her only leveling up once in WoR and being ahead of Kaladin, who is at third level at the end of WoR. Is this responsive to your question?
Marmota he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Author Posted August 18, 2014 Shallan apparently said the first Oath and enough truths to be able to use Pattern as a Shardblade to kill her mom. It seems like that must be the shared oath and two truths, because at the end of WoR she is one level more advanced than Kaladin. After her mom died, she regressed and "I killed my father" must have gotten her back to third level. This is based on her only leveling up once in WoR and being ahead of Kaladin, who is at third level at the end of WoR. Is this responsive to your question? Yes, it does. I wasnt considering that she could have made Oaths before the start of the told part of the history. But yeh, since she could summon Pattern into become a Shardblade, she must have said the Oaths.... So after all there is still a lot of things we dont know about Shallan
el_warko he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) I always took Shallan's levelling as her becoming more self aware. As such, she just needs to realise her truth which she could either do piecemeal or all at once. Or, if I am wrong (not the first or last time for that) does she need a number of truths as such, and if so, at what point does it degenerate into sillyness (which I'm all for by the by). "Pattern" "Hmmm" "I killed my dad on a Jesel, not a Chachel" *full disclaimer: the date is probably known implicitly to most people, I am too lazy to work it out* "Hmmm" Shallan earns half a level and loses the need for a focus with her illusions. Edited August 18, 2014 by el_warko 1
kaellok he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 The first truth we see her say is "I'm afraid." Can't source now, as I'm at work. 1
Left he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 Kaladin is on number three of the five oaths. 1st is the one that all radiants share, journey before destination and all that. Second is the one at the end of tWoK's while rescuing Dalinar and everyone. 3rd is the one that he learns when reviving Syl. I don't have quotes on those so if someone with too much time on their hands wanted to..... Anyway, I'm guessing Shallan's on 4th right now, which means that she'll probably be the first person to reach level 5. Pretty cool stuff.
Marmota he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Author Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) Kaladin is on number three of the five oaths. 1st is the one that all radiants share, journey before destination and all that. Second is the one at the end of tWoK's while rescuing Dalinar and everyone. 3rd is the one that he learns when reviving Syl. I don't have quotes on those so if someone with too much time on their hands wanted to..... Anyway, I'm guessing Shallan's on 4th right now, which means that she'll probably be the first person to reach level 5. Pretty cool stuff. Yeh, that seems correct. The WoB makes an undertanding that Shallan is at the 4th level. The question really was which wore the exact 3 truths. It could be what Defender of Jezrien said: she told 2 truths in her childhood, what would allow her to summon the blade, then the "i killed papa" thing would awaken her, and "i killed mama" would put her at level 4. The only problem with this theory is that i dont know if it makes much sense for a truth to only wake her... i think that way she would have said 4 truths in total and would be a level 5 (2 steps above Kaladin, which is not what WoB claims). But at least it would explain why she could summon patter in her childhood, which is indeed a mistery so far. Another option may lay in what Kaellok said in the quote below: The first truth we see her say is "I'm afraid." Can't source now, as I'm at work. I personally dont remember what you are talking about. Waiting for any enlightment hehe Edit: Adjusting cohesion/grammar Edited August 18, 2014 by Marmota
kaellok he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 Another option may lay in what Kaellok said in the quote below: I personally dont remember what you are talking about. Waiting for any enlightment hehe Edit: Adjusting cohesion/grammar If you've got the books handy, as I recall, it's around the time in WoK where she's drawing Mr. T's portrait; shortly after that, when she keeps seeing the Cryptic spren following her.
nimvin Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) I can't remember where I read (maybe an excerpt from in world WoR) but different KR orders have different number of oaths. Do we know which orders have 5 and which orders don't. Do the lightweaver and windrunners have the same number? If its 5 WR and 4LW he could referencing that Shallan has 1 togo while Kal still has 2 togo. Edited August 18, 2014 by nimvin 1
Marmota he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Author Posted August 18, 2014 If you've got the books handy, as I recall, it's around the time in WoK where she's drawing Mr. T's portrait; shortly after that, when she keeps seeing the Cryptic spren following her. Oh, i remeber now , thx! But i could e sure if that one counts.... I can't remember where I read (maybe an excerpt from in world WoR) but different KR orders have different number of oaths. Do we know which orders have 5 and which orders don't. Do the lightweaver and windrunners have the same number? If its 5 WR and 4LW he could referencing that Shallan has 1 togo while Kal still has 2 togo. Hum...i realy though that all Orders had 5. I dont have the book here, but i think Syl said that the KR have 5 Oaths, and didnt specify any order in that speech
Localconfusi0n Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 Im pretty sure that all Orders have 5 Oaths, my personal feeling on Brandons "upper limit/threshold" comment is that, since he has also said a KR can have more than one Spren bond at a time, they can only swear so many Oaths no matter how many Spren they are Bonded to. For example Dalinar also gains a Dustbringer Spren (not necessarily saying this will happen) but can only swear 3 of their Oaths (assuming he has already sworn all of his Bondsmith Oaths) or he "caps out" at 10 total Oaths, something along those lines, but it is possible to be part of atleast 2 Orders at once.
Vaspin Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 Anything Shallan did from her childhood days is irrelevant. She lost it all after the trauma of her mom's death and she started living in denial. So any truths, or personal growth, she shows towards becoming a true Lightweaver starts at the beginning of the plot. That being said, her first one is most likely when she confessed she was afraid, the next is her admittance to murdering her father. And the last would be when Pattern confronts her on how her mother died.
nimvin Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) Looked up "oaths" in my kindle version. The word is a lot less common than I thought. And a third of the results were "Oaths"tone lol. After reviewing them all,I may have misconstrued Shallan and Patterns conversation. Short version LW only speak one oath. From there they admit truths. I am still not sold on 5 levels though. Speculation here but I imagine Nalen would have required oaths from all orders but additional,more binding, oaths from the more destructive orders. Hence lightweavers only have one oath. Edited August 18, 2014 by nimvin
nimvin Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) I am still not sold on 5 levels though. Speculation here but I imagine Nalen would have required oaths from all orders but additional,more binding, oaths from the more destructive orders. Hence lightweavers only have one oath. Upon further thought its not even up to the KR or Heralds. It would be dependant upon the spren of the order. What do they "need" from the KR to fully actualize the bond to maximize what it is they get from the bond. I understand it allows them to think and maybe experience (?) the physical realm but is that the only benefit? They are simply intellectual hedonists? I imagine there is more to it we have yet to discover. Edited August 18, 2014 by nimvin
Vaspin Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 Upon further thought its not even up to the KR or Heralds. It would be dependant upon the spren of the order. What do they "need" from the KR to fully actualize the bond to maximize what it is they get from the bond. I understand it allows them to think and maybe experience (?) the physical realm but is that the only benefit? They are simply intellectual hedonists? I imagine there is more to it we have yet to discover. One of the Heralds did setup all of the Orders, it was Ishar. But to as to why there are 5 for each, it was said each Order had the same the same first Ideal and 4 following Ideals which varied amongst the individual Orders. They were called the Immortal Words.
Patrick Star Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 She's said 3 truths (out of 4), so she's 1 step ahead of Kaladin and 2 ahead of Dalinar. 1
nimvin Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 Where have we confirmed there are 5steps? WoB or on text?
Guest Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 There are five oaths or truths, in the case of Lightweavers. Kal has said 3, Dalinar 2, Renarin most likely 2 and Shallan has said 4. The first one was the general one. The second was : "I am afraid". The third one was : "I killed my father". The fourth one was : "I killed my mother". I suspect the last one will have to deal with either Helaran or her love life Radiants can access to their shardblade at various stage. For some, they get immediately, for others, it takes longer, like Kal.
Patrick Star Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 I suspect the last one will have to deal with either Helaran or her love life Or maybe it's more along the lines of "Eye color doesn't matter" or "I'm an eyecolorist bigot" Though it'll probably be "Kaladin did nothing wrong when he killed my brother"
Guest Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 Or maybe it's more along the lines of "Eye color doesn't matter" or "I'm an eyecolorist bigot" Though it'll probably be "Kaladin did nothing wrong when he killed my brother" I am feeling very sentimentalist right now, I was more hoping for something along the line of : "I am in love with Adolin Kohlin (and not Kaladin)"
kaellok he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 It's in The Way of Kings. Ch. 59 "An Honor" In that very same conversation, Kaladin tells Teft that a lot of what they know about Radiants seems to be conflicting or contradictions. From the outside, we see how his specific complaints aren't true (each Order has two Surges, not all of them, which explains why some fly and some run on walls and others can teleport) -- but those may not be the only contradictions. I've searched the WoB Compiled thread and been utterly unable to find any WoB that indicate how many Ideals there are in total, so it might be four + the First Ideal of the Immortal Words like Teft says, but his information may also be a bit wrong. I guess what I'm saying is that that's a good guideline, but not something we should treat as absolute truth because the information is from an unreliable source. Another option may lay in what Kaellok said in the quote below: I personally dont remember what you are talking about. Waiting for any enlightment hehe Edit: Adjusting cohesion/grammar [Text clue that Shallan has a Shardblade, and is terrified to summon it] What are you? She clutched her hand to her chest, losing her balance on the soft bed, falling to her knees on the rumpled blanket. She put one hand to the side, steadying herself on the nightstand, fingers brushing the large glass goblet that sat there. "What am I?" she whispered. "I'm terrified." This is true. The bedroom transformed around her. Taken from WoK, p.643 hard-cover, Chapter 45 Shadesmar. No possible way, in my mind, that that doesn't count. The Windrunners, or at least Kaladin, have their spoken Ideals result in incredibly showy effects that everyone can see. Lightweavers and Bondsmiths don't have this. Whether this is an artifact of Windrunners needing to be able to immediately see the result of their Oaths to believe that they are real, or they just are so arrogant to visibly shove it in the faces of literally everyone around them at the time is unknown (and a joke!) I suspect the last one will have to deal with either Helaran or her love life Can't agree with you here, actually. If we look at the nature of Shallan's truths, so far they are all directly related to her Bond with Pattern. She is terrified to summon him as a Shardblade, because that is what destroyed her family--causing her to kill both of her parents (eventually). Now that I think about it a bit more, though, maybe I do agree with you a little. I'd imagine her last Truth to be something like "It's okay for me to be loved." The only strong attachments she has with anyone are her family, and all of those pre-date her Bond with Pattern--and even then she doesn't seem truly close to her brothers (nothing like Kaladin and Tien or Adolin and Renarin). Everything we know about her suggests that all relationships since then have been fairly shallow and on the surface, perhaps even when she wants them to be a bit more (aka, with Adolin). 1
Marmota he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Author Posted August 18, 2014 Radiants can access to their shardblade at various stage. For some, they get immediately, for others, it takes longer, like Kal. Yeh, there is no place explicitly saying that Radiants an only summon Shardblade after level 3 right?
Marmota he/him Posted August 18, 2014 Author Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) I agree with Maxal, the last truth will probably be abou her admiting her love. But Kaladin has better chances than Adolin hehe edit: didnt see the this answer before: Taken from WoK, p.643 hard-cover, Chapter 45 Shadesmar. No possible way, in my mind, that that doesn't count. The Windrunners, or at least Kaladin, have their spoken Ideals result in incredibly showy effects that everyone can see. Lightweavers and Bondsmiths don't have this. Whether this is an artifact of Windrunners needing to be able to immediately see the result of their Oaths to believe that they are real, or they just are so arrogant to visibly shove it in the faces of literally everyone around them at the time is unknown (and a joke!) Yep, thats true, it sure does count. I just didnt have the book to chec it up. Thx ! Edited August 18, 2014 by Marmota
Guest Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 Can't agree with you here, actually. If we look at the nature of Shallan's truths, so far they are all directly related to her Bond with Pattern. She is terrified to summon him as a Shardblade, because that is what destroyed her family--causing her to kill both of her parents (eventually). Now that I think about it a bit more, though, maybe I do agree with you a little. I'd imagine her last Truth to be something like "It's okay for me to be loved." The only strong attachments she has with anyone are her family, and all of those pre-date her Bond with Pattern--and even then she doesn't seem truly close to her brothers (nothing like Kaladin and Tien or Adolin and Renarin). Everything we know about her suggests that all relationships since then have been fairly shallow and on the surface, perhaps even when she wants them to be a bit more (aka, with Adolin). I think it would round up things quite neatly for Shallan to have our last truth be about her future instead of her past. So far, she has acknowledged the grim past she has spent 6 years running away from, but she has not acknowledge what she wants to do with her future. The betrothal with Adolin was not her decision, but Jasnah attempt to tie her to her family and thus saving Shallan's. The apprenticeship she has been through have not really been her decision as well: she went to be Jasnah's ward in order to save her brothers, she apprenticed herself to Tyn in order to survive and she decided to become a Ghostblood to avenge/protect her family. Once her family finally gets to be safe, I bet we are going to see Shallan lose her main purpose. All her life decisions have been made with the objective of protecting them. What is she going to do with herself now? What does she want? I believe the last truth will have to do with these things and I secretly hope it will be about her love life. I would love if after making the relationship crash, after rejecting it because she does not need it anymore, if she would just come to realize she does want it. Maybe it won't, but I am quite sure it will deal with her future self. Yeh, there is no place explicitly saying that Radiants an only summon Shardblade after level 3 right? Actually, we have a WoB saying the shardblade is acquired at different stage for Radiants. I think it mentioned order, but it could also be specific to each Radiant.
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