The Cause of Shallan's Personalities

[Letryx13]

I don't know if anyone has posted something to this effect before, but I think there's a concrete explanation for Shallan's dissociative identity disorder.  I might just be dense for posting something that seems obvious to everyone, but here goes.

I think the real reason for Shallan's mental problems is because of what happened to Testament.  Up to finding out about the Cryptic, we're led to believe that Shallan's mental issues stem from the trauma she experienced when she killed her mother.  To be fair, this likely contributed to the problem, but I don't think it's the root cause.  I think that when a radiant breaks the mind of their spren, the spren isn't the only one to be damaged by the process.  

This leads me to wonder what happened to the ancient radiants of the recreance.  I've always assumed that the ancient radiants spread stories about a betrayal to make people think they'd been tricked in order to make them hate the radiants so no one would pursue surge binding powers again.  But maybe there's more to it. If the minds of the ancient radiants were broken similarly to Shallan, then maybe not all the tales of radiant's being traitors are false.

[Duxredux]

Let me see if I get the jist of the concept that you're presenting, by rewording it to see if I understand.

In essence, the idea is that when a Radiant breaks their oaths and their spren becomes a Deadeye, it's not just the spren that is damaged, it's also the mind, memory, or some other cognitive aspect of the former Radiant? In extension does this explain the Recreance? That seems possible. Here's some WoBs that could support that. My initial response was that I wasn't sure if Brandon would introduce magic symptoms for a real world disorder, but apparently he did just that.

Spoiler

Dr Bonko 360

Is there a difference between the way that Shallan 'broke' her bond with Testament and the way that the rest of the Radiants broke their bonds in the Recreance that allowed Shallan to use Surgebinding between her bonds with Testament and Pattern?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of and kind of not. I mean the thing about it is, some of the things that are happening with Shallan could've happened in the past and probably did, but it's been so long ago that it's not really relevant. So it's less like she's done something super unique and more like things that are happening with Shallan also probably happened—not with everybody but with some—but there's just not record of it and it's not as relevant to the conversation. So, less that she's special and more that this is a possibility. Not giving any confirmations to any specific items, just saying what is happening with Shallan could theoretically have happened in the past and probably did.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

So, a couple of things here. First off, I'll take any knocks I get--and try to do better. I'm not an expert on mental health, and though I do my best, I'm going to get things wrong. I'm going to risk defending myself here--and hopefully not dig myself deeper--as I at least explain my thought process, and why I built Shallan the way I did.

However, one of the rules of thumb I go by is this: individual experience can defy the standard, if I understand that is what I'm doing. Like how Stephen Leeds is not trying to accurately portray schizophrenia, Shallan is not trying to accurately portray dissociative identity disorder (if a scholarly consensus on such a thing even exists. I haven't glanced through the DSM5 to see what it says.)

In Legion, I have an easy out. I say, point blank, "He doesn't fit the diagnosis--he's not a schizophrenic, or if he is, he's a very weird one." I don't have the benefit of a modern psychology voice in the Stormlight books to hang a lantern on this, but my intention is the same. What Shallan has is related to her individual interaction with the world, her past, and the magic.

Is this Hollywood MPD? I'm not convinced. Hollywood MPD (with DSM4 backing it up, I believe) tends to involve things like a person feeling like they're possessed, and completely out of control. The different identities don't remember what others did. It's a very werewolf type thing. You wake up, and learn that another version of you took over your body and went out and committed crimes or whatever.

Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes. But she has magical abilities that nobody in this world has, including the ability to put on masks that change the way everyone perceives her. She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face.

She's losing control of what is real and what isn't--partially because she can't decide who she wants to be, who she should be, and what the world wants her to be. But it's not like other personalities are creeping in from a fractured psyche. She's hiding behind masks, and creates each role for herself to act in an attempt to solve a perceived shortcoming in herself. She literally sketched out Veil and thought, "Yup, I'm going to become that person now." Because Veil would have never been tricked into caring about her father; she would have been too wise for that.

I feel it's as close as I can get to realism, while the same time acknowledging that as a fantasy author, one of my primary goals is to explore the human interaction with the supernatural. The "What ifs" of magic. What if a person who had suffered a great deal of abuse as a child COULD create a mask for themselves, changing themselves into someone stronger (or more street-smart who wouldn't have been betrayed that way. Would they do it, and hide behind that mask? What would that do to them and the world around them?

DID is indeed controversial, but I really like this portrayal. Not of a disease, but of who this character is. And I've had had enough positive responses from people who feel their own psychology is similar that I'm confident a non-insignificant number of people out there identify with what she's doing in the same way people with depression identify with Kaladin.

General Reddit 2018 (Jan. 12, 2018)

I'm not well read at all on disassociate identity disorder (I've only read an article or two online, definitely haven't looked it up in the DSM-5 or talked to a professional), so, I can't say much on there being a definitive event or identifiable cause for her D.I.D.. The first WoB makes me lean towards some of the Radiants at the Recreance may have developed similar problems, but not all of them. It's possible that those who tried to retain a bond with a Deadeye (and may have suffered a lot of screaming) may have had similar issues to Shallan. Brandon is working really hard to deal with D.I.D. respectfully by talking to experts and listening to feedback from readers with D.I.D., so Shallan's D.I.D. becomes relevant to the plot, I'm just not sure how I can discuss it well without - in part because Shallan's life simply has to follow a "personal experience" and doesn't have follow a standard even if such exists, but discussing D.I.D. in a generalized sense would be necessary since we wouldn't be able to predict how Brandon will portray how this disorder will manifest in Shallan's life.

It seems... unlikely to me that the entirety of the Radiants who forsook their oaths at the Recreance would suffer the same mental disorder, though it's quite likely that many of them had major trauma from the event. Unless there is a specific magical component that breaks the mind of the Radiant in a way more likely to cause D.I.D.. I find it more likely that the Radiants (you know, people who often had cracked souls) when they gave up their oaths and learned of the state of their closest friend, that many of them had serious and long lasting psychological consequences, but not necessarily D.I.D. specifically. All the articles in the quick search I made noted that D.I.D. is a often a lifelong condition, so I doubt Brandon will make Shallan's D.I.D curable because there looks to be plenty of realistic trauma and not just magical trauma. So... despite Adolin asking Kaladin to research and help Shallan, I doubt that Shallan's D.I.D. will ever fully be cured even if all Deadeyes were to be restored.

[Letryx13]

21 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Let me see if I get the jist of the concept that you're presenting, by rewording it to see if I understand.

In essence, the idea is that when a Radiant breaks their oaths and their spren becomes a Deadeye, it's not just the spren that is damaged, it's also the mind, memory, or some other cognitive aspect of the former Radiant? In extension does this explain the Recreance? That seems possible. Here's some WoBs that could support that. My initial response was that I wasn't sure if Brandon would introduce magic symptoms for a real world disorder, but apparently he did just that.

  Reveal hidden contents

Dr Bonko 360

Is there a difference between the way that Shallan 'broke' her bond with Testament and the way that the rest of the Radiants broke their bonds in the Recreance that allowed Shallan to use Surgebinding between her bonds with Testament and Pattern?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of and kind of not. I mean the thing about it is, some of the things that are happening with Shallan could've happened in the past and probably did, but it's been so long ago that it's not really relevant. So it's less like she's done something super unique and more like things that are happening with Shallan also probably happened—not with everybody but with some—but there's just not record of it and it's not as relevant to the conversation. So, less that she's special and more that this is a possibility. Not giving any confirmations to any specific items, just saying what is happening with Shallan could theoretically have happened in the past and probably did.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

So, a couple of things here. First off, I'll take any knocks I get--and try to do better. I'm not an expert on mental health, and though I do my best, I'm going to get things wrong. I'm going to risk defending myself here--and hopefully not dig myself deeper--as I at least explain my thought process, and why I built Shallan the way I did.

However, one of the rules of thumb I go by is this: individual experience can defy the standard, if I understand that is what I'm doing. Like how Stephen Leeds is not trying to accurately portray schizophrenia, Shallan is not trying to accurately portray dissociative identity disorder (if a scholarly consensus on such a thing even exists. I haven't glanced through the DSM5 to see what it says.)

In Legion, I have an easy out. I say, point blank, "He doesn't fit the diagnosis--he's not a schizophrenic, or if he is, he's a very weird one." I don't have the benefit of a modern psychology voice in the Stormlight books to hang a lantern on this, but my intention is the same. What Shallan has is related to her individual interaction with the world, her past, and the magic.

Is this Hollywood MPD? I'm not convinced. Hollywood MPD (with DSM4 backing it up, I believe) tends to involve things like a person feeling like they're possessed, and completely out of control. The different identities don't remember what others did. It's a very werewolf type thing. You wake up, and learn that another version of you took over your body and went out and committed crimes or whatever.

Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes. But she has magical abilities that nobody in this world has, including the ability to put on masks that change the way everyone perceives her. She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face.

She's losing control of what is real and what isn't--partially because she can't decide who she wants to be, who she should be, and what the world wants her to be. But it's not like other personalities are creeping in from a fractured psyche. She's hiding behind masks, and creates each role for herself to act in an attempt to solve a perceived shortcoming in herself. She literally sketched out Veil and thought, "Yup, I'm going to become that person now." Because Veil would have never been tricked into caring about her father; she would have been too wise for that.

I feel it's as close as I can get to realism, while the same time acknowledging that as a fantasy author, one of my primary goals is to explore the human interaction with the supernatural. The "What ifs" of magic. What if a person who had suffered a great deal of abuse as a child COULD create a mask for themselves, changing themselves into someone stronger (or more street-smart who wouldn't have been betrayed that way. Would they do it, and hide behind that mask? What would that do to them and the world around them?

DID is indeed controversial, but I really like this portrayal. Not of a disease, but of who this character is. And I've had had enough positive responses from people who feel their own psychology is similar that I'm confident a non-insignificant number of people out there identify with what she's doing in the same way people with depression identify with Kaladin.

General Reddit 2018 (Jan. 12, 2018)

I'm not well read at all on disassociate identity disorder (I've only read an article or two online, definitely haven't looked it up in the DSM-5 or talked to a professional), so, I can't say much on there being a definitive event or identifiable cause for her D.I.D.. The first WoB makes me lean towards some of the Radiants at the Recreance may have developed similar problems, but not all of them. It's possible that those who tried to retain a bond with a Deadeye (and may have suffered a lot of screaming) may have had similar issues to Shallan. Brandon is working really hard to deal with D.I.D. respectfully by talking to experts and listening to feedback from readers with D.I.D., so Shallan's D.I.D. becomes relevant to the plot, I'm just not sure how I can discuss it well without - in part because Shallan's life simply has to follow a "personal experience" and doesn't have follow a standard even if such exists, but discussing D.I.D. in a generalized sense would be necessary since we wouldn't be able to predict how Brandon will portray how this disorder will manifest in Shallan's life.

It seems... unlikely to me that the entirety of the Radiants who forsook their oaths at the Recreance would suffer the same mental disorder, though it's quite likely that many of them had major trauma from the event. Unless there is a specific magical component that breaks the mind of the Radiant in a way more likely to cause D.I.D.. I find it more likely that the Radiants (you know, people who often had cracked souls) when they gave up their oaths and learned of the state of their closest friend, that many of them had serious and long lasting psychological consequences, but not necessarily D.I.D. specifically. All the articles in the quick search I made noted that D.I.D. is a often a lifelong condition, so I doubt Brandon will make Shallan's D.I.D curable because there looks to be plenty of realistic trauma and not just magical trauma. So... despite Adolin asking Kaladin to research and help Shallan, I doubt that Shallan's D.I.D. will ever fully be cured even if all Deadeyes were to be restored.

Well, I think that restoring the other dead eyes isn't what's needed to help Shallan.  I remember a WoB talking about how she's recovering the same level ideals that she had with testament.  I think progressing as a radiant will help her.  It could be a coincidence, but I think that realizing what she did to Testament was her third ideal, which is what allowed her to assimilate Veil. I think it's likely that whatever her next truth is, it will allow her to absorb Radiant too, and earn her armor.  Which feels fitting, considering that Radiant is the warrior personality.  Essentially, re-swearing the ideals will help her repair the bond that she broke with Testament, healing them both.

However, you probably do have a point that not all of the ancient radiants experienced the same kind of mental issues as Shallan.  I'd be willing to wager a lot of them did suffer issues of some sort, but probably a variety of such problems.

[Marabout]

Theory:  Radiant isn’t a split personality but rather Chanarach hiding in Shallan’s gemheart

[Duxredux]

@Letryx13, Brandon has actually addressed the possibility of Shallan assimilating Radiant, and it's not a given. Not an impossibilty, but incorporating alters isn't always healthy. WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

But now since Veil has been incorporated, so Veil is Shallan now, again. Which is one of those things that as I was doing it, I recognized could be controversial in the D.I.D. community, because there are various different opinions about whether incorporating alters is good for the individual, or not. The decision I made on this is, it was good for Shallan in that circumstance. Using my best understanding of the psychology, and the treatment recommendations, and knowing both sides of that argument. It was the right thing for Shallan right then. That doesn't mean necessarily that she has to incorporate Radiant in order to be healthy. I will just point that out.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

It could go the way it you said, and that would be pretty cool, I'm just not sure if "rule of cool" will surpass Brandon's desire to not have mental health to have too tidy a progression.

As for:

10 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Theory:  Radiant isn’t a split personality but rather Chanarach hiding in Shallan’s gemheart

Why would Shallan have a gemheart? Even if she did have an internal gemstone, Jezrien trapped in a gem was enough to disrupt the Oathpact that Jezrien's soul degraded and passed to the Beyond. There are theories that Chanarach is Shallan's mother, so there may be Spiritual Realm Connection shenanigans to make Radiant abnormally similar to Chana, particularly since Shallan's drawings already are supernatural, but that would be the extent that I could see.

[Letryx13]

25 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Theory:  Radiant isn’t a split personality but rather Chanarach hiding in Shallan’s gemheart

Now that would be an interesting plot twist.

6 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

@Letryx13, Brandon has actually addressed the possibility of Shallan assimilating Radiant, and it's not a given. Not an impossibilty, but incorporating alters isn't always healthy. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

But now since Veil has been incorporated, so Veil is Shallan now, again. Which is one of those things that as I was doing it, I recognized could be controversial in the D.I.D. community, because there are various different opinions about whether incorporating alters is good for the individual, or not. The decision I made on this is, it was good for Shallan in that circumstance. Using my best understanding of the psychology, and the treatment recommendations, and knowing both sides of that argument. It was the right thing for Shallan right then. That doesn't mean necessarily that she has to incorporate Radiant in order to be healthy. I will just point that out.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

It could go the way it you said, and that would be pretty cool, I'm just not sure if "rule of cool" will surpass Brandon's desire to not have mental health to have too tidy a progression.

I hadn't seen that WoB, I was just going off of what was mentioned in RoW, and so I assumed Radiant's incorporation as inevitable.  Thank you for that one.  Having said that, I think a compromise would be for Shallan to have the option of assimilating Radiant when achieving her next truth, but not necessarily taking it.

[Marabout]

First assuming that Chana is Shallan’s mother (wild theory number one), Shallan has a gemheart because of the unique process needed for Heralds to have children.  Again this is all wild theory but I’m guessing a Herald would have to split off part of their Investiture and grow it … hence the best way would be with a chrysalis which would mean whatever pops out of it has a gemheart.  

As for degradation, I’d guess that their is a difference between forceable confinement and willing residency,  There is also likely a big difference between a living gemheart and any other vessel (come to think of it, this may be the answer / twist to the GBs trying to move things from planet to planet).