Did Nale Intentionally Make Szeth a Cognitive Shadow

[Duxredux he/him]

I was listening to RoW, in particular Kaladin's spar with Zahel. When Zahel was talking about Type 2 Invested entities, when a departing soul is drenched in power and stapled back onto a body. I'm paraphrasing from the audio, but Zahel says "It's what happened to me. Happen to your friend in the tower too. The one with the sword." That's gotta be referring to Szeth right?

There's also this WoB, particularly the bolded section:

Quote

celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain Cognitive Shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a Cognitive Shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are Cognitive Shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a Cognitive Shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Sept. 8, 2020)

So... did Nale just cut the timing really, really close, or did he deliberately wait until Szeth was dead before sloppily stapling his/a soul back to his body? If so, why? What about Gawx? With Szeth in particular, I started wondering if he would end up being in some measure Kaladin's guinea pig for the project Dalinar gave him - namely healing the Heralds' minds.

As a slight tangent, I wonder if Moelach was deployed by Rayse specifically to accelerate the mental degradation of the Heralds. It seems unlikely that the Death Rattles were meant to benefit humanity, particularly the Diagram. Maybe it was meant to give insight for the Fused and attack the Heralds? Perhaps Moelach will have to be bound before the Heralds regain any of their sanity.

Spoiler

"Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself."

WoR Epigraph 82

Spoiler

Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls. —Jezrien on Moelach[11]

Any ideas as to why it might be important that Szeth is potentially a Cognitive Shadow?  Thoughts?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

I was listening to RoW, in particular Kaladin's spar with Zahel. When Zahel was talking about Type 2 Invested entities, when a departing soul is drenched in power and stapled back onto a body. I'm paraphrasing from the audio, but Zahel says "It's what happened to me. Happen to your friend in the tower too. The one with the sword." That's gotta be referring to Szeth right?

There's also this WoB, particularly the bolded section:

So... did Nale just cut the timing really, really close, or did he deliberately wait until Szeth was dead before sloppily stapling his/a soul back to his body? If so, why? What about Gawx? With Szeth in particular, I started wondering if he would end up being in some measure Kaladin's guinea pig for the project Dalinar gave him - namely healing the Heralds' minds.

Szeth isn't a CS:

Spoiler

Questioner

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah the Divine Breath is a gift of Investiture directly to the...basically they are being given a large Splinter of Endowment.

Questioner

But is it the size?

Brandon Sanderson

The size is important, to make that happen, yeah.

Questioner

To make it happen?

Brandon Sanderson

To make it happen, yeah. To make them come back and to do the things but...there is obviously some leakage there when they basically taking a Cognitive Sh...they have to create a Cognitive Shadow of the spirit, right. Which requires some work, and then to push that back into the body and get it to stick requires some work as well. You'll see that with Szeth it isn't sticking very well.

Questioner

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah Szeth is not a Cognitive Shadow, he actually got stuck back in but the soul is not sticking very well to the body

Questioner

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

That's what she's saying.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

Spoiler

The__Good__Doctor

Hi Brandon! I wanted to talk about the revised ending of Words of Radiance.

So, it looks like Kaladin won't be actually delivering the killing blow to Szeth any more. I think that Kaladin was entirely justified in doing this, since it was a fight to the death, and Kaladin was protecting not only Dalinar but his entire squad below. Kaladin even seems surprised when he lands the blow, expecting Szeth to block it like he had been doing the entire fight. The killing was not done in vengeance or with malice, unlike what Adolin does later. Having the storm kill Szeth seems like an anti-climatic way to end the scene, since it takes away Szeth's decision to die by the sword, and means we no longer have an example of why the spren Shardblades don't immediately kill people.

Brandon Sanderson

I woud be fine having him do it, though I think killing a foe who has given up was against this thematic plot. But what pushed me over the edge to change was the sense that I was pulling too many fast ones on the reader with people coming back to life. I wanted it clear to readers that Szeth was not dead, so this scene wasn't a fake out, which would weaken Jasnah's arrival later.

Dancingedge

Um, Mr. Sanderson, I don't mean to be disrespectful as you probably have the scene better in your head than I do but how is a man without Stormlight falling from a very large hight, while in the middle of two Highstorms coliding and throwing entire platoos in the air expected to survive? Maybe I don't have the right persective on this given that I saw both Jasnah (the body disapearing is just as much a give away as it never being shown in my book) and Syl (Pattern outright said Sprens can be revived) coming but unless you severly change the fight scene I don't see how being stabbed actually matters for Szeth survival chances.

Brandon Sanderson

The idea is that the reader didn't see him die, so there's a psychological trigger--one that says "Ah, I didn't see a body. He's probably not dead."

Yes, Szeth totally died from that fall--just as the young man that Lift revived had died from what he suffered. We know that Stormlight can fix the body and bring back the dead, so long as very little time has passed.

The import of the tweak to me is allowing some question in the reader's mind, so that the return is not a betrayal.

The__Good__Doctor

That is a lot more understandable. Having too many reveals at the end could be problematic. I agree that Jasnah coming back felt like pulling a fast one right at the end. However, I think the suprise of Szeth coming back was really well done, especially with the reveal of Nin (Nale, Nalan? This dude is so old he has three names!) at the very end with his special sword friend. I feel like that was the real zinger that should have closed the book.

I was a little underwhelmed with Jasnah coming back, not because I dislike her, but because I thought she was well and truly dead. She died so early in the book that I was completely accepting of her death by the end, and her coming back in a 'gotcha' moment felt a little hollow. Perhaps this could have happened about a hundred pages into the next book? I don't know the entire story like you do, of course, but as a reader it felt like Szeth and his rebirth should have been the final closing image.

Brandon Sanderson

This all came about, if you're curious, during the detailed plotting of the second book. Originally, the outline did not call for Jasnah to leave, but I was having real trouble getting Shallan into a place--emotionally and experience-wise--where she could do the things she needed to do while Jasnah was around. I determined that Jasnah needed to pull a Gandalf, and let her ward alone for a while, and I'm glad I did it--the book is much, much stronger for it. However, the side effects of the last-minute change in the plot required Jasnah's reappearance, which sent a few waves through the book. (Szeth's death and survival being the main one.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 8, 2015)

But the thing that happened to Szeth is very similar to what has happened to other CS - his soul got stampled back to the body after his death, which brought him back to life.

I don't think Nale had enough investiture to create CS with that fabrial - we know it requires massive amounts of investiture and a simple fabiral wouldn't work.

Whole quote from RoW ch 15:

Quote

“My soul,” Zahel said, “is like that fossil. Every part of my soul has been replaced with something new, though it happened in a flash for me. The soul I have now resembles the one I was born with, but it’s something else entirely.”

“I don’t understand.”

“I’m not surprised.” Zahel thought for a moment. “Imagine it this way. You know how you can make an imprint in crem, then let it dry, and fill the imprint with wax to create a copy of your original object? Well, that happened to my soul. When I died, I was drenched in power. So when my soul escaped, it left a duplicate. A kind of ... fossil of a soul.”

Kaladin hesitated. “You ... died?”

Zahel nodded. “Happened to your friend too. Up in the prison? The one with ... that sword.”

“Szeth. Not my friend.”

“The Heralds too,” Zahel said. “When they died, they left an imprint behind. Power that remembered being them. You see, the power wants to be alive.” He gestured with his chin toward Syl, flying down beneath them as a ribbon of light. “She’s what I now call a Type One Invested entity. I decided that had to be the proper way to refer to them. Power that came alive on its own.”

“You can see her!” Kaladin said.

“See? No. Sense?” Zahel shrugged. “Cut off a bit of divinity and leave it alone. Eventually it comes alive. And if you let a man die with too Invested a soul—or Invest him right as he’s dying—he’ll leave behind a shadow you can nail back onto a body. His own, if you’re feeling charitable. Once done, you have this.” Zahel waved to himself. “Type Two Invested entity. Dead man walking.”

Either Vasher is saying that Szeth died too, or Szeth soul was drenched in power too. Your interpretation of this is valid based on that quote. But we have WoB claiming Szeth isn't a CS.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

As a slight tangent, I wonder if Moelach was deployed by Rayse specifically to accelerate the mental degradation of the Heralds. It seems unlikely that the Death Rattles were meant to benefit humanity, particularly the Diagram. Maybe it was meant to give insight for the Fused and attack the Heralds? Perhaps Moelach will have to be bound before the Heralds regain any of their sanity.

  Reveal hidden contents

"Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself."

WoR Epigraph 82

  Reveal hidden contents

Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls. —Jezrien on Moelach[11]

 

Interesting. I remember in OB in the ch 88 Jez said to Dalinar when talking about Unmades that they  "ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched.", which might suggest that Unmades were made out of Herald's broken mind (at least partially - there was a theory about it based on that quote), or Unmades presence is worsening Heralds madness.

I'm pretty sure Moelach's real purpose wasn't revealed yet. Just granting future visions in the moment of death is too little for an Unmade (that's a lot but that isn't helping Odium that much). He must be able to do something more than that, something actually aiding Odium’s war effort. Him being able to get into Herald's mind might be his real purpose.

[Duxredux he/him]

@alder24, I didn't know about those WoBs. Thanks! I see three interpretations from this disparity. Not sure how much further discussion can be had though, but I thought I would lay them out.

1. Brandon messed up with Vasher's statement. This is by far the least likely considering how intentionally Szeth was referenced.

2. Both of the WoBs declaring that Szeth was not a Cognitive Shadow came in 2015-2016, whereas RoW and the WoB on the revival of the deceased came in 2020. It's possible that for some reason Brandon changed his mind on Cosmere resuscitation and forgot he made the other statements.

3. For some reason it is important that Vasher has misdiagnosed Szeth's condition despite clearly keeping a close eye on both Nightblood and and his current wielder. This seems odd and slightly out of character for Vasher, considering he knows that Szeth died and was revived, a detail that would probably not be common knowledge. All within the realm of possiblility though.

Am I missing something? Anything stick out to anyone or is this just a unimportant detail?

[cometaryorbit]

The fourth possibility is what @alder24 said, that "Happened to your friend too" means just the dying part. It is a direct response to Kaladin being shocked that Zahel's saying he died.

The fifth possibility is that it isn't a clear distinction. Brandon has said that "Cognitive Shadow" is an in-cosmere theory. There may be a blurry line between Cognitive Shadow and just healed, and Szeth's right on that line.

Edited June 1, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

@alder24, I didn't know about those WoBs. Thanks! I see three interpretations from this disparity. Not sure how much further discussion can be had though, but I thought I would lay them out.

1. Brandon messed up with Vasher's statement. This is by far the least likely considering how intentionally Szeth was referenced.

2. Both of the WoBs declaring that Szeth was not a Cognitive Shadow came in 2015-2016, whereas RoW and the WoB on the revival of the deceased came in 2020. It's possible that for some reason Brandon changed his mind on Cosmere resuscitation and forgot he made the other statements.

3. For some reason it is important that Vasher has misdiagnosed Szeth's condition despite clearly keeping a close eye on both Nightblood and and his current wielder. This seems odd and slightly out of character for Vasher, considering he knows that Szeth died and was revived, a detail that would probably not be common knowledge. All within the realm of possiblility though.

Am I missing something? Anything stick out to anyone or is this just a unimportant detail?

Yeah, like cometaryorbit said, that was Vasher's response only to Kaladin's "you died" question. He just listed a set of characters that died, not all of them needed to be CS. Vasher likely just saw Szeth one day, saw his soul being dragged behind, maybe heard Nightblood's voice in his head calling him, and he freaked out that his best mistake he had ever made came to haunt him back, but drew the correct conclusions that Szeth died. For Vasher dying and coming back is a "completely normal phenomenon" while for Kaladin this is unheard of and deeply disturbing. Vasher just said "it's not weird at all, your friend Szeth died too". That's for me the most likely scenario (with 99.9% probability that this is the truth).

Spoiler

Questioner

What would a Cognitive Shadow see if they saw Szeth?

Brandon Sanderson

If they saw Szeth? They're going to see his soul kinda trailing along behind him. It's gonna be really freaky to them.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

 

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by alder24