Squad fights

[therunner he/him]

9 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Machine gun won't hurt a Seer unless it has aluminum bullets or the air is so full of bullets that there's no clear path. A big explosion would work better - if a second or two of warning isn't enough to get out of the lethal blast zone, they're dead.

Yeah that is roughly what I am thinking as well.
Though I would say that mounted machine gun that can fire 100 rounds per second would be too much for Seer.

10 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

The only ways to hurt someone with Atium (before they run out) are future knowledge of your own (Atium, Electrum, maybe F-Chromium, or what Vin did), aluminum projectiles, or 'checkmating' them so that they physically can't escape even with flawlessly perfect reactions a second or two in advance.

I broadly agree with this, though I would also add powers that are not visible in PR would also work (e.g. stun through A-duralumin Rioting and Soothing combo, Reverse Lashing them into a weapon, etc.).

Also, Vin proves that you don't need future knowledge of your own, if you can train yourself to only react to Seer. Then you will start splitting your Atium shadows. How replicable that feat is, is open question though.

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Theoretically you could checkmate Seers with Full Lashings and trap them, yeah. I think it'd be incredibly hard to do with equal numbers, though. Maybe possible with Gravitation flight and enough Stormlight to take a lot of hits while applying Lashings, though. Not sure that average Squires would have the skill/precision, though.

I think equal numbers would work in favor of Windrunners here, simply because you need less people to encircle someone. N people standing on boundary of a circle can keep watch over basically 1/4*N^2 people (for low N there would be corrections on order of N though), roughly speaking.

50 Windrunners could then comfortably encircle about ~600 people, even when those people stand relatively freely (1 m^2 per person).
And since all Windrunners have to do is establish perimeter once, that is relatively easy task, as I have discussed previously.

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Yeah that is roughly what I am thinking as well.
Though I would say that mounted machine gun that can fire 100 rounds per second would be too much for Seer.

I broadly agree with this, though I would also add powers that are not visible in PR would also work (e.g. stun through A-duralumin Rioting and Soothing combo, Reverse Lashing them into a weapon, etc.).

Also, Vin proves that you don't need future knowledge of your own, if you can train yourself to only react to Seer. Then you will start splitting your Atium shadows. How replicable that feat is, is open question though.

I think equal numbers would work in favor of Windrunners here, simply because you need less people to encircle someone. N people standing on boundary of a circle can keep watch over basically 1/4*N^2 people (for low N there would be corrections on order of N though), roughly speaking.

50 Windrunners could then comfortably encircle about ~600 people, even when those people stand relatively freely (1 m^2 per person).
And since all Windrunners have to do is establish perimeter once, that is relatively easy task, as I have discussed previously.

I don't think the rate of fire is really the key thing here, it's more how easily it can be slewed side to side, up and down etc. If it is physically possible to be out of the line of fire - given perfect knowledge and precisely accurate movements - a Seer will be.

I am unconvinced that powers that aren't visible in the Physical would work. They might, but I don't think we can be confident of that given that Kelsier says in the SH version of the Elend and Seers vs koloss battle that the Seers are "transcending the Physical Realm". It looks like just seeing future shadows of objects/people, but it's really more than that - atium burners can react even if they don't consciously see the shadow.

I think Reverse Lashing would show something. It's easier to see them missing the duralumin Soothing thing, because that's really totally non-Physical - and we know it could possibly work against atium by WoB - but it could also work because the atium burner couldn't do anything to avoid it.

Vin was using future knowledge though... just not through a power of her own. She saw a cue from Zane and was able to benefit from his future knowledge. It's possible but I think that's kind of one in a million (Vin's intuition for Allomancy stuff is truly exceptional - maybe unique due to her special Connection to Preservation - and also Zane was kind of grandstanding there. If he'd gone to kill Vin quickly and efficiently I don't think she'd have had time to work it out. Maybe it could be a learnable technique, but it'd hardly be fair to assume our Squires had atium burning sparring partners to practice it on - by its nature it could only be tried against someone with atium or equivalent.)

Ok, I'm lost on the last part. Doesn't that circle math imply that the Seers are standing very close together? I think that's exactly the wrong thing for them to do, especially against more-mobile opponents. Seers don't need formations to defend one another like historical close-combat warriors on Earth, since they have "eyes in the back of their head" and perfect dodging.

I don't think herding people with Atium-inspired dodging is practical (it's not necessarily impossible with Windrunners' superior mobility, but I think it'd take more skill than squires are likely to have, especially since Gravitation flight isn't very optimal for herding people on the ground. 50 Steel Compounders with the ability to use Full Lashings could do it, sure.)

Edited May 18, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Duxredux he/him]

I'll pitch in that Zane was able to counter a Duralumin-enhanced Push from Vin using Atium. The timing and strength of his counter Push was so accurate that he barely moved. Whatever processing abilities Atium bestows, it allowed responding to even that kind of cue (which is what, Vin jerking slightly as she pushes against her anchors on one side and whatever Zane was Pushing against?) It doesn't anticipate someone else about to burn Atium, so presumably as long as there are any visual cues whatsoever, it can help the burner react.

As for Vin's reaction to Zane's Atium, I'd argue that Vin is world class in no way less than Kaladin. By herself she took on a squad that consisted of two fully trained Mistborn, Mistings, and killed one of the Mistborn with less than a year of training at age 16. She walked away with a cut to her arm and her cheek. That kind of pure skill is theoretically trainable, but expecting any significant percentage of 51 people to do the same is pretty unrealistic, especially when there isn't any athletic prerequisite to become a squire. Even then, Zane had a 50/50 chance to respond to her attack and guessed wrong (and pulling off the react-to-the-reaction multiple times consecutively seems incredibly difficult). 50/50 odds if you happen to have insanely good reflexes are better than no odds, but that's still terrible.

If we're allowing this high of a level of Cosmere knowledge to the combatants of their own system and their opponents, then the Seers can start doing Fortune guided strikes to Hemalurgically spike out chunks of the Windrunner's Spiritwebs. I'm betting that even if the spike is the wrong metal to hold and retain the charge, any Allomantically viable metal could punch out an ability or a Connection from a Spiritweb (unless we think that each metal can only interact with a specific aspect of the Spiritweb, which seems unlikely to me). Spike out the Squire's Connection to their Radiant through their heart, and they're dead with no Progression to save them.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, I'd agree Vin is equally world-class with Kaladin (though at a different skill set).

I don't think that trick would work for the vast majority of people, and as you say it's still a 50/50 shot even if everything goes perfectly. It's probably significant that Elend, who presumably knew of the trick (surely Vin told him at some point), doesn't even consider fighting Yomen when he realizes he's an Atium Misting - despite Elend's Lerasium Mistborn abilities.

Given what we've seen about Connection things in Stormlight even when there's no overt "magic system" happening, I wouldn't be surprised if Vin had an extra edge somehow - being shaped from birth by both Shards might have given her more Connection or Fortune or something.

[therunner he/him]

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think the rate of fire is really the key thing here, it's more how easily it can be slewed side to side, up and down etc. If it is physically possible to be out of the line of fire - given perfect knowledge and precisely accurate movements - a Seer will be.

Yeah, and 100 bullets passing near you would make it impossible to dodge in vast majority of cases.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I am unconvinced that powers that aren't visible in the Physical would work. They might, but I don't think we can be confident of that given that Kelsier says in the SH version of the Elend and Seers vs koloss battle that the Seers are "transcending the Physical Realm". It looks like just seeing future shadows of objects/people, but it's really more than that - atium burners can react even if they don't consciously see the shadow.

No. Per WoB these kinds of tactics (relying on things atium does not show you) is viable (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e9038).
Remember that Kelsier is still someone who know basically nothing about realmatics, and Seers fight only Koloss who have no abilities.
And the 'transcending the Physical Realm' can be also explained just by the very nature of how Atium works (Fortune).

Atium is only ever shown to provide user with information on physical stimuli, the sole exception (possibly) being Duralumin Atium, which is not achievable for Seers.
And even then, some things you cannot avoid, like Emotional Allomancy or being Soulcast, or being affected by Reverse Lashing (which has aoe in tens of meters, beyond how far you could move in a second).

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think Reverse Lashing would show something. It's easier to see them missing the duralumin Soothing thing, because that's really totally non-Physical - and we know it could possibly work against atium by WoB - but it could also work because the atium burner couldn't do anything to avoid it.

Why? Atium shows shadows of physical objects, nothing else. Seers don't see atium shadows of gravity or Steellines of opponent or areas under effect of copper, why would they see field of effect of reverse lashing?
Hell, they don't even see atium shadow of gases, purely physical thing.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Vin was using future knowledge though... just not through a power of her own. She saw a cue from Zane and was able to benefit from his future knowledge. It's possible but I think that's kind of one in a million (Vin's intuition for Allomancy stuff is truly exceptional - maybe unique due to her special Connection to Preservation - and also Zane was kind of grandstanding there. If he'd gone to kill Vin quickly and efficiently I don't think she'd have had time to work it out. Maybe it could be a learnable technique, but it'd hardly be fair to assume our Squires had atium burning sparring partners to practice it on - by its nature it could only be tried against someone with atium or equivalent.)

Exactly, she was using future knowledge of the Seer against them. Something anyone can do, so anyone can do it, not just someone with future knowledge of their own. All you need is knowledge how atium works (showing you future shadows of others and letting you react to that), nothing else.
Sure, most would not be able to pull it off, but in principle it is possible, and requires no Invested art.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Ok, I'm lost on the last part. Doesn't that circle math imply that the Seers are standing very close together? I think that's exactly the wrong thing for them to do, especially against more-mobile opponents. Seers don't need formations to defend one another like historical close-combat warriors on Earth, since they have "eyes in the back of their head" and perfect dodging.

If they don't stand close together, then Squires can pick them off one by one. Seers see 1 second into the future, so if they are far enough apart, they cannot react in time to protect others. But if they are too close, they can be encircled.
And since 50 squires can encircle ~800 square meters easily, I doubt Seers can be far enough to not be encircled and at the same time close enough to assist one another.
Simply put, it is a trade off, either they are close enough to help each other, or they are far enough to not be encircled.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think herding people with Atium-inspired dodging is practical (it's not necessarily impossible with Windrunners' superior mobility, but I think it'd take more skill than squires are likely to have, especially since Gravitation flight isn't very optimal for herding people on the ground. 50 Steel Compounders with the ability to use Full Lashings could do it, sure.)

Herding is relatively easy I would say, especially since you don't really require much skill with Gravitation (no fancy maneuvering or anything).
Create a large group around the Seers, and coat the ground in Full Lashing , with some head start in the direction Seers are moving in. It is possible it would require multiple maneuvers, but you could restrict their movements, and there is nothing Seers can do about it.

They run in one direction, Squires coat it in Full Lashing. Seers change direction, another group coats ground in front of them in Full lashing and so on.

Edit: @Duxredux

Quote

If we're allowing this high of a level of Cosmere knowledge to the combatants of their own system and their opponents, then the Seers can start doing Fortune guided strikes to Hemalurgically spike out chunks of the Windrunner's Spiritwebs. I'm betting that even if the spike is the wrong metal to hold and retain the charge, any Allomantically viable metal could punch out an ability or a Connection from a Spiritweb (unless we think that each metal can only interact with a specific aspect of the Spiritweb, which seems unlikely to me). Spike out the Squire's Connection to their Radiant through their heart, and they're dead with no Progression to save them.

If we are allowing such high levels of knowledge, no Radiant will let Seer get close to them. If they start apart, Radiant can keep their distance always, since thanks to Stormlight they have better physical abilities.

And some Orders would be able to stop Seers from touching them (Division, Adhesion, Abrasion, Transportation at least).

Edited May 19, 2023 by therunner
spelling after I woke up

[cometaryorbit]

20 hours ago, therunner said:

Why? Atium shows shadows of physical objects, nothing else. Seers don't see atium shadows of gravity or Steellines of opponent or areas under effect of copper, why would they see field of effect of reverse lashing?
Hell, they don't even see atium shadow of gases, purely physical thing.

Exactly, she was using future knowledge of the Seer against them. Something anyone can do, so anyone can do it, not just someone with future knowledge of their own. All you need is knowledge how atium works (showing you future shadows of others and letting you react to that), nothing else.
Sure, most would not be able to pull it off, but in principle it is possible, and requires no Invested art.

If they don't stand close together, then Squires can pick them off one by one. Seers see 1 second into the future, so if they are far enough apart, they cannot react in time to protect others.

Because the Reverse Lashing would affect other objects - pebbles/dirt on the ground or whatever- even if the Stormlight of the Lashing itself didn't have an atium shadow (I don't know whether it would or not). With the expanded mind/intuitive reactions of Atium, seeing the pebbles/soil move would probably be enough.

Yeah, what Vin did isn't power based, sure.

How could they pick off Seers one at a time? Without the encircling & sticking, they can't hit them. Seers don't need to protect each other - they have "eyes in the back of their heads" and perfect reactions as well as future sight.

Edited May 19, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[therunner he/him]

On 19/05/2023 at 9:20 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Because the Reverse Lashing would affect other objects - pebbles/dirt on the ground or whatever- even if the Stormlight of the Lashing itself didn't have an atium shadow (I don't know whether it would or not). With the expanded mind/intuitive reactions of Atium, seeing the pebbles/soil move would probably be enough.

Reverse Lashing effect only what Windrunners Intends it to, e.g. in this case Seer themselves. Pebbles, dirt on ground, that will behave as if Reverse Lashing was not there, since it is not intended to effect it. We see it in RoW.
The Seer would have nothing to react to, since Seer does not see their own shadow. (wonder how that works with their clothing and weapons, are they considered part of Seer for this purpose?)

On 19/05/2023 at 9:20 PM, cometaryorbit said:

How could they pick off Seers one at a time? Without the encircling & sticking, they can't hit them. Seers don't need to protect each other - they have "eyes in the back of their heads" and perfect reactions as well as future sight.

If the Seers are spread apart far enough they cannot encircle them, then also Seers cannot help each other.

If Seers are too far to help each other, 4 (or few more) Windrunners can encircle individual Seers (same tactics as when encircling larger group, drop around them in some distance, spread Full Lashing from you to deny escape). 
This is a slow work, but even if you need 10 Windrunners for encircling single Seer, it could be done. And once encircled, Seers legs will soon be glued via Full Lashing to ground, and then they can be killed via variety of methods I have already detailed earlier in thread (since they can no longer dodge attacks to their legs, and they physically cannot block more than 2 attacks at once (they lack weapons and shield, as those would be ripped from them via Reverse Lashing).

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by therunner