Hoid's Flute a Dawnshard?

[Kelsier_I_Barely_Know_Her]

Hey All! Long time lurker, first time poster, so I apologize if the formatting isn't quite right. There will be plenty of spoilers regarding the later Stormlight books and the Dawnshard novella, so please tread lightly if you haven't read those yet. 

After my most recent reread of RoW I noticed how much discussion there is on Hoid’s flute and it got me thinking that it must be more significant than just a simple musical instrument. Perhaps the flute is actually the Dawnshard that Hoid has had since the shattering? Before people jump down my throat, I am aware of the theorized connection between Hoid’s Dawnshard and the First Gem. However, as we saw in the Dawnshard novella, the receptacle of the Dawnshard can obviously change from items to people.  So I went back and started tracing where we have previously seen or head mention of the flute. We know that Hoid has had the flute for an extremely long time when he tells Kaladin that he has carried it longer than Kaladin would believe. The way Hoid explains the flute always seemed odd to me

Spoiler

'It is meant to be used by a storyteller. Being played by someone else while he speaks.'

 ‘You mean to accompany a storyteller. Being played by someone else while he speaks.’

‘Actually, I meant what I said’

To me, Kaladin’s confusion about this is reasonable. He probably hasn’t seen many people play the flute while simultaneously storytelling. What bugs me about the wording is that Hoid claims he “uses” it instead of simply saying that he plays it. A little later in the passage Brandon describes Kaladin’s reaction to the music

Spoiler

“Kaladin found himself transfixed. The tune was powerful, almost demanding. As if each note were a hook, flung out to spear Kaladin’s flesh and hold him near.”

The emphasis on demanding here is what catches my attention. Sure, people describe music as demanding occasionally, but perhaps there is a bit more here. After Hoid finishes the story he gives Kaladin the flute and tells him that

Spoiler

'When you can make the music sing back to you, then you’ve mastered it'

Which I will admit, on its own, doesn’t seem all that consequential at first glance. But when I start thinking about the little that is known of Dawnshards that passage starts to take on a different meaning. We know from the Dawnshard novella that to properly use a Dawnshard, it requires both Intent and Command. So perhaps “mastering” the flute in this context Hoid is hinting to Kaladin being able to use the Dawnshard.

Further, we also know that holding Dawnshards for a long-time changes people (from Oathbringer epilogue) which has obviously happened to Hoid due to his inability to hurt others. Now Kaladin loses the flute relatively quickly after receiving it from Hoid, so he wouldn’t have developed those same effects, but maybe his time with the flute in his possession did  have an effect. Kaladin is only one of two known surgebinders who was able to remain awake during the occupation in RoW. I know there are completely logical explanations made in the book as to why he was able to remain conscious, but I think it is possible that this explanation is incomplete and that Kaladin’s time with a Dawnshard in his possession assisted in his consciousness. As I mentioned, there was only one other surgebinder who remained awake, Lyft, who we find out at the end of the book has had the flute in her possession from some time after the move from the Shattered Plains!

We all know that Hoid rarely appears or takes action that aren’t absolutely necessary to meet his own goals (whatever they may be). He tells Dalinar himself near the end of  WoR that

Spoiler

'I have discovered a place that I must be, though to be honest I’m not exactly sure why I need to be there. This doesn’t always work as well as I’d like it to.'

So maybe Hoid felt it was time to pass on the Flute (which I suspect to be the Dawnshard) because he felt Kaladin and eventually Lyft would have greater need of it in the near future.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Kelsier_I_Barely_Know_Her

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Kelsier_I_Barely_Know_Her said:

Which I will admit, on its own, doesn’t seem all that consequential at first glance. But when I start thinking about the little that is known of Dawnshards that passage starts to take on a different meaning. We know from the Dawnshard novella that to properly use a Dawnshard, it requires both Intent and Command. So perhaps “mastering” the flute in this context Hoid is hinting to Kaladin being able to use the Dawnshard.

Further, we also know that holding Dawnshards for a long-time changes people (from Oathbringer epilogue) which has obviously happened to Hoid due to his inability to hurt others. Now Kaladin loses the flute relatively quickly after receiving it from Hoid, so he wouldn’t have developed those same effects, but maybe his time with the flute in his possession did  have an effect. Kaladin is only one of two known surgebinders who was able to remain awake during the occupation in RoW. I know there are completely logical explanations made in the book as to why he was able to remain conscious, but I think it is possible that this explanation is incomplete and that Kaladin’s time with a Dawnshard in his possession assisted in his consciousness. As I mentioned, there was only one other surgebinder who remained awake, Lyft, who we find out at the end of the book has had the flute in her possession from some time after the move from the Shattered Plains!

Nice theory BUT - you don't hold the Dawnshard, you ARE the Dawnshard. The Dawnshard merges with your soul and you become one with it. This means that Kaladin was never any Dawnshard just by holding a flute. I find it plausible that Hoid hid the Dawnshard in his flute, but Kaladin holding it and playing would never make him the Dawnshard, and he would have no effects of being one. Those are two very unrelated events. 

Like I said, it's nice a theory - Hoid could hide the Dawnshard in his flute. But as seen in Dawnshard novella, Dawnshards are very visible to a person fitting their Command. Which would make a very bad disguise if there would be a person for whom the flute would be glowing with light and speaking into his mind. But it's also likely that Hoid found the way to suppress Dawnshard's effects.

We fully know the reasons why Kaladin was awake during Tower's occupation in RoW: 

Spoiler

Nouf

What does it mean that Kaladin is close to Honor, and how did that factor into him staying conscious while every other Windrunner in the tower didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

The nuts and bolts answer is, Kaladin basically was in a place where he could say the next oath, and should have said the next oath, and indeed knew the next oath, and it was on his tongue, and he refused to. So basically he was as close to being the next level of Knights Radiant as a person could humanly get, because everyone considered him ready except himself. He even knew that he was ready, but by saying it, it would require him to give up something that was precious to him, which is his feeling guilty. A precious part of his identity as he saw it. And he would have to relinquish that. That's the bulk of it.

The other bulk of it is, the level to which Kaladin tries to protect, the level to which Kaladin exemplifies the Ideals of the Windrunners, and indeed of the way that Honor would have all Knights Radiant act, is so over the top, in alignment with the way Honor would like it to be, that it could even be considered unhealthy. Remember, Honor didn't always encourage healthy relationships with things like the power, particularly later in his existence. So either way, Kaladin is just kind of extra aligned with that intent, if that makes any sense.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[Argenti he/him]

On 4/23/2023 at 0:53 PM, alder24 said:

Nice theory BUT - you don't hold the Dawnshard, you ARE the Dawnshard. 

Sp4

Spoiler

You know Sigzil (however you spell it, the worldsinger)  was stated by Brandon to have held a dawnshard not become on. I'm on my phone so I don't have the WOB on hand but rest assured it exists. He also said he choose that language very specifically. Nonetheless he still exhibits Dawnshard effects with a torment and other stuff, despite never having the Dawnshard. We aren't told what the difference is between the two but this theory lines up the gaps nicely.

Tldr: you can hold a Dawnshard 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Sp4

  Hide contents

You know Sigzil (however you spell it, the worldsinger)  was stated by Brandon to have held a dawnshard not become on. I'm on my phone so I don't have the WOB on hand but rest assured it exists. He also said he choose that language very specifically. Nonetheless he still exhibits Dawnshard effects with a torment and other stuff, despite never having the Dawnshard. We aren't told what the difference is between the two but this theory lines up the gaps nicely.

Tldr: you can hold a Dawnshard 

SP4 spoilers:

Spoiler

That's not that simple. Yes, we often call it "holding a Dawnshard", Brandon too, but Dawnshards aren't objects, they're  Commands and pure investiture, not a physical object, that will warp your soul if you hold it. Holding it means becoming one. People that hold Dawnshard are Dawnshards themself. Sizgil's Torment and Hoid's one are the same, their spirit was wrapped in the same way. But Hoid WAS a Dawnshard (sometimes Brandon said he held a Dawnshard, but he's talking about the same Dawnshard so it means he was a Dawnshard). Here is the WoB you're talking about:

Spoiler

AdelRD

Should we assume that Sigzil’s Dawnshard is the same that Hoid used to have?

Brandon Sanderson

Sigzil, at one point, held the same Dawnshard that Hoid used to have. I phrased that very intentionally.

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

And comparison of different WoB's:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Let's talk about the Torment for a second. Hoid would not call what has happened to him a Torment. Hoid, by holding a Dawnshard, was made permanently unable to cause physical harm to other beings. Eating meat makes him nauseous (if he is somehow able to eat it, and a lot of the times he just can't). That is because of the nature of the Dawnshard that he held actively warping and changing his spirit. He would not name it this. Nomad has named what has happened to him, a Torment. This is not a term that you can universally apply as a magical aspect of something. This is Sigzil saying "this terrible thing happened to me". And indeed what is happening to Sigzil is on a level beyond what happened to Hoid. So therefore perhaps other arcanists would say, "Yes, these are an aspect of holding a Dawnshard and Torment is the right way", but that word is loaded. That word has meaning, and someone is naming it this. You are not gonna run into a large set of people- there are only four Dawnshards- and you're not gonna run into a large set of people that have held one, so there may be no consensus even in-world to what these are called, and if they are Torment or blessings or what they are. Holding a Dawnshard will warp your soul. It's so much Investiture, it is so powerful, that you cannot hold one even briefly without it having a permanent effect upon you. 

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

 

Spoiler

LMJJ

Are Hoid and Sigzil Connected now because they both held the same Dawnshard? Is this why Sigzil is worried about them tracing Hoid if Sigzil is caught?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

LMJJ

Is it possible to trace someone's Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

 

Spoiler

College_advice12

Who is more invested, Susebron or Nomad?

Brandon Sanderson

Nomad- uhhhh. Oh oh, that's a hard one. Nomad was, but is no longer. So Susebron. I was gonna say Nomad, but he doesn't have the Dawnshard anymore. So not anymore, Susebron would be more invested than he would be at this point. But Nomad can feed upon Investiture, so he could overtake that threshold in the right circumstances. But not currently. Currently he can't even get himself Connected to the planet to speak the language, so.

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid was a Dawnshard at some point in the deep past, and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people, or even eat meat, is related to the changes this made to his spirit. (Consider this the same fundamental principle as savanthood.) The few of you who have read Dragonsteel know that him being a Dawnshard was also the source of his immortality in that book, though the terms were different back then. (The word Dawnshard was never mentioned, for example--though the primary story of Dragonsteel (which is no longer canon) was about several people who unwittingly become Dawnshards.)

And a preemptive RAFO to all questions on this point.

Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

The last WoB is crucial, it means that every time Brandon said "Hoid held a Dawnshard" it actually means "Hoid was a Dawnshard". The same can be applied to Sizgil. Therefore yes, in the context of SP4, holding a Dawnshard means becoming one. The wording of this first WoB is specific, and might leave some wiggle room (like Sizgil was a different Dawnshard, but for some time held in hands Hoid's Dawnshard - unlikely because of later WoB telling they both held the same Dawnshard).