Another, Better Way to Use Hemalurgy?

[Trusk'our he/him]

I got to wondering (again) about my favorite Cosmere magic system and how to creatively improve its usage.

What if you took an un-Invested spike and then charged it by piercing a Metalborn with it- but then left it in them with the Intent to have the spike grant them its power?

Could you use this as a way to effectively charge a spike while the person was alive, but while doing minimal damage to them? Most of their Investiture is still there in the spike and could stay there until the person passed away from natural causes.

Then you wouldn't have to worry about not getting the chance to charge a spike after someone passed away; the spike would already be Hemalurgically charged, thus preserving the power. Plus, you wouldn't feel the need to cut someone's life short by having them sacrifice themselves for "the greater good".

If you want to add some Identity blanking to the mix, you might be able to make an even better deal for the donor.

You could have the donor Blank their Identity whilst donating, then give the charged spike to another donor down the line; that way, the second donor gets to keep most of their original Investiture plus whatever is left from the original donor. The process could continue to stack up, increasing the total Investiture in the spike, thus increasing the benefit for the donors and making the process more appealing, which would make more people willing to donate.

Assuming the process to program Hemalurgic spikes made from non-Metalborn becomes a reality in Scadrial's future, this process could be extended to all Scadriens, and could allow for every single human being on Scadrial to someday have access to the Metallic Arts due to the ability build up the power in the spikes, contrary to Allomancy's decreasing power.

Depending on the effectiveness of Malwish Medallion tech, which TLM suggests is far more limited than previously assumed, this may be the way to comedize the Metallic Arts in Scadrial's future and make all of its people truly equal.

[therunner he/him]

I don't think spiking out a power, and spiking in a power can be done as one action.

First you have to spike someone with Intent to spike the power out, and the spike someone in correct bind point with Intent to put power in.
Not to mention that bind points to take power away might not be the same as the ones to put power in.

Also, spiking out is invariably at the very least excruciatingly painful, further complicating things.

Edit: And also Shard's Intent controls how their Invested art is accessed, i.e. Honor requires Bonds, Dor requires some combination of location (Dominion) and dedication to something (Devotion), Preservation takes nothing from the user (in Allomancy).
In Hemalurgy, you must Ruin someone to get power. So I think trying to get around it and trying to not hurt someone (Preserve them so to speak) would just result in failure.

Edited April 17, 2023 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think spiking out a power, and spiking in a power can be done as one action.

Well, I suppose even if that isn't possible (which it still might) then you could use the Set's method of non-lethally removing the donor's power, then immediately give the spike back to them so that they'd have it until they die.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Also, spiking out is invariably at the very least excruciatingly painful, further complicating things.

I don't know that it's that necessary. The Set scientists said that trauma on the part of the donor is helpful, not that it was strictly necessary, so you likely could work around that with a skilled enough Hemalurgist.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Edit: And also Shard's Intent controls how their Invested art is accessed, i.e. Honor requires Bonds, Dor requires some combination of location (Dominion) and dedication to something (Devotion), Preservation takes nothing from the user (in Allomancy).
In Hemalurgy, you must Ruin someone to get power. So I think trying to get around it and trying to not hurt someone (Preserve them so to speak) would just result in failure.

That's a fair point. Ruin's Intent will always cause some collateral damage when dealing with Hemalurgy.

As a counterpoint, I feel it's worth mention that bearing a single Hemalurgic spike hasn't seemed to cause much of a problem unless direct Shardic intervention from Ruin comes into play; neither Spook, Wax, nor Wayne ever mentions their spikes as being terribly painful or cumbersome after the initial spiking. That's not denying that there would be some damage, it's just that from what examples we have it seems that it wouldn't be a big deal.

[therunner he/him]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Well, I suppose even if that isn't possible (which it still might) then you could use the Set's method of non-lethally removing the donor's power, then immediately give the spike back to them so that they'd have it until they die.

Sure that would be possible. Though we don't know if you can non-lethally extract full powers, not just 'spark of Preservation'.

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I don't know that it's that necessary. The Set scientists said that trauma on the part of the donor is helpful, not that it was strictly necessary, so you likely could work around that with a skilled enough Hemalurgist.

I doubt that. If they could simply sedate the people, or give them painkillers and the process would still work, there is no reason for the Set scientist not to do so.
Subjects would be more cooperative that way even.

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That's a fair point. Ruin's Intent will always cause some collateral damage when dealing with Hemalurgy.

As a counterpoint, I feel it's worth mention that bearing a single Hemalurgic spike hasn't seemed to cause much of a problem unless direct Shardic intervention from Ruin comes into play; neither Spook, Wax, nor Wayne ever mentions their spikes as being terribly painful or cumbersome after the initial spiking. That's not denying that there would be some damage, it's just that from what examples we have it seems that it wouldn't be a big deal.

Yeah, the Ruin part comes when spiking something out.
Using Hemalurgic spike does not cause that many issues, as the body adjusts to spike.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Sure that would be possible. Though we don't know if you can non-lethally extract full powers, not just 'spark of Preservation'.

Have you read TLM yet? I don't mean to say that in an offensive manner, I just don't want to be spoiling the experience for you if you haven't yet.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I doubt that. If they could simply sedate the people, or give them painkillers and the process would still work, there is no reason for the Set scientist not to do so.
Subjects would be more cooperative that way even.

I doubt the Set cared all that much about the donor's health or happiness. Still, you may be right that non-lethal Hemalurgy requires the donor to feel pian in order to satisfy Ruin's Intent (lethal Hemalurgy has already been confirmed not to require the donor to feel pain- Marsh spiked a Smoker in HoA who was in a drunken stupor).

If trauma is necessary and not simply a "helpful" action, it would definitely be harder to get willing donors, that's for sure (though I doubt it would be impossible to get wiling donors, just that you'd get a lot fewer, at least until the benefits of having extra Metalborn power start to show themselves).

However... Warbreaker spoilers.

Spoiler

I think that trauma may be helpful similar to an Awakener using their own hair to aid in Awakening, or like them using a cloth cut into the shape of a human being; it is helpful to the Awakening process, but it isn't strictly necessary if someone has enough Breaths or if someone has honed their skills.

 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Yeah, the Ruin part comes when spiking something out.
Using Hemalurgic spike does not cause that many issues, as the body adjusts to spike.

I think that spikes have to cause some damage to the recipient as well, as piercing holes in the Spiritweb seems to be a necessary aspect of Hemalurgy; otherwise, I doubt the Spirtweb fragments in the spike and the recipient of the spike would interact enough despite Identity differences to allow for powers to be gained. You could minimize the damage perhaps, but not erase it.

[therunner he/him]

33 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Have you read TLM yet? I don't mean to say that in an offensive manner, I just don't want to be spoiling the experience for you if you haven't yet.

I did
That is why I specifically mentioned that Set don't demonstrate extraction of complete power, only of 'spark'.

33 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I doubt the Set cared all that much about the donor's health or happiness. Still, you may be right that non-lethal Hemalurgy requires the donor to feel pian in order to satisfy Ruin's Intent (lethal Hemalurgy has already been confirmed not to require the donor to feel pain- Marsh spiked a Smoker in HoA who was in a drunken stupor).

If trauma is necessary and not simply a "helpful" action, it would definitely be harder to get willing donors, that's for sure (though I doubt it would be impossible to get wiling donors, just that you'd get a lot fewer, at least until the benefits of having extra Metalborn power start to show themselves).

Maybe you can trade death for pain, or the more suffering you bring worth the more potent the charge (i.e. less decayed power).
Almost literally "No pain, no gain"

33 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

However... Warbreaker spoilers.

  Reveal hidden contents

I think that trauma may be helpful similar to an Awakener using their own hair to aid in Awakening, or like them using a cloth cut into the shape of a human being; it is helpful to the Awakening process, but it isn't strictly necessary if someone has enough Breaths or if someone has honed their skills.

 

Problem is that in Awakening Awakener provides the power to do Invested effect.
But in Hemalurgy, all the power needed to rip of piece of soul and put in spike comes from Ruin. All the user bring in is Intent (and spike+victim). And that Intent must be in line with Ruin, at least to some extent I expect. There is no way to power Hemalurgy, like there is in Awakening.

33 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that spikes have to cause some damage to the recipient as well, as piercing holes in the Spiritweb seems to be a necessary aspect of Hemalurgy; otherwise, I doubt the Spirtweb fragments in the spike and the recipient of the spike would interact enough despite Identity differences to allow for powers to be gained. You could minimize the damage perhaps, but not erase it.

Oh, they do cause some damage and warping of form on all three realms. But the damage is comparatively slight.
Vin had spike her entire life, and she was pretty ok.

Edited April 18, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

What if you took an un-Invested spike and then charged it by piercing a Metalborn with it- but then left it in them with the Intent to have the spike grant them its power?

Could you use this as a way to effectively charge a spike while the person was alive, but while doing minimal damage to them? Most of their Investiture is still there in the spike and could stay there until the person passed away from natural causes.

Unlikely to work. You take away the power by spiking a specific binding point in the heart, and you give that power by spiking different binding points. Spike placed in the wrong point won't work.

Spoiler

[...]

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Well, I suppose even if that isn't possible (which it still might) then you could use the Set's method of non-lethally removing the donor's power, then immediately give the spike back to them so that they'd have it until they die.

This would cause the donor to have two holes in his soul. While he would regain most of his investiture, 2 tears might cause further mental damage to him

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

As a counterpoint, I feel it's worth mention that bearing a single Hemalurgic spike hasn't seemed to cause much of a problem unless direct Shardic intervention from Ruin comes into play; neither Spook, Wax, nor Wayne ever mentions their spikes as being terribly painful or cumbersome after the initial spiking. That's not denying that there would be some damage, it's just that from what examples we have it seems that it wouldn't be a big deal.

In modern times yes, but before Catacendre Ruin was influencing people to the point when they just forgot about huge pieces of metal in their body.

 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I did
That is why I specifically mentioned that Set don't demonstrate extraction of complete power, only of 'spark'.

Oh okay, good. I was somewhat worried that I had accidentally ruined the experience for you 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Maybe you can trade death for pain, or the more suffering you bring worth the more potent the charge (i.e. less decayed power).
Almost literally "No pain, no gain"

Yes, that would make sense, I suppose. So pain would probably be unavoidable to the donor at least, but at least it isn't death!

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Problem is that in Awakening Awakener provides the power to do Invested effect.
But in Hemalurgy, all the power needed to rip of piece of soul and put in spike comes from Ruin. All the user bring in is Intent (and spike+victim). And that Intent must be in line with Ruin, at least to some extent I expect. There is no way to power Hemalurgy, like there is in Awakening.

Hmmm, true. I still think that there could be ways to increase the efficiency of Hemalurgy through practice though; a Hemalurgist with a better understanding and better Connection to the art of Hemalurgy would probably be better able to determine what to take off the donor's Spiritweb, and could take more or less if they desired.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Oh, they do cause some damage and warping of form on all three realms. But the damage is comparatively slight.
Vin had spike her entire life, and she was pretty ok.

Ah, I had forgotten about Vin.

That's definitely true; one spike doesn't cause serious problems for the one bearing it, it would seem.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

This would cause the donor to have two holes in his soul. While he would regain most of his investiture, 2 tears might cause further mental damage to him

Hmmm. Yes, that would possibly be a problem.

I wonder how bad it would be though. Would it be serious enough to cause noticeable problems, or would it be manageable enough to use this practice in good conscience?

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

In modern times yes, but before Catacendre Ruin was influencing people to the point when they just forgot about huge pieces of metal in their body.

Yeah, that's true. From Wax and Wayne though, it doesn't seem to be a big deal as far as we seen in TLM.

[therunner he/him]

12 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Oh okay, good. I was somewhat worried that I had accidentally ruined the experience for you 

It is better to be careful

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Yes, that would make sense, I suppose. So pain would probably be unavoidable to the donor at least, but at least it isn't death!

For Donor it is definitely an upgrade

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Hmmm, true. I still think that there could be ways to increase the efficiency of Hemalurgy through practice though; a Hemalurgist with a better understanding and better Connection to the art of Hemalurgy would probably be better able to determine what to take off the donor's Spiritweb, and could take more or less if they desired.

Certainly, we see that in Awakening, that with better Intent and Command you can do more with less.
Similarly, the Set scientist do mention that speaking out Command helps with Investing of the spike, so there will be similarities there.

Skilled Hemalurgist could probably gain more then 5% from single person, or they could more precisely take what they want.
Ultimately, skill in Hemalurgy is truly about skill and knowledge, you need to know what to do to do it.

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That's definitely true; one spike doesn't cause serious problems for the one bearing it, it would seem.

Well, one spike with allomancy/feruchemy.
The chimera from SoS did have one spike only (seemingly) and I would call looking like that serious problem

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Oh okay, good. I was somewhat worried that I had accidentally ruined the experience for you 

In topics that are about TLM put "TLM" in tags  

35 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

That's definitely true; one spike doesn't cause serious problems for the one bearing it, it would seem.

Problems, not that much. but they do "feel" them: TLM epilogue 7:

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Wax felt at his abdomen, where he bore his spike.

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

20 minutes ago, therunner said:

Certainly, we see that in Awakening, that with better Intent and Command you can do more with less.
Similarly, the Set scientist do mention that speaking out Command helps with Investing of the spike, so there will be similarities there.

Skilled Hemalurgist could probably gain more then 5% from single person, or they could more precisely take what they want.
Ultimately, skill in Hemalurgy is truly about skill and knowledge, you need to know what to do to do it.

Yeah, a better Hemalurgist (the one charging and placing the spikes) would be the one with more skill and knowledge rather than having more raw power (which, funnily enough, does add some skill and inherent understanding) as in Awakening.

25 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well, one spike with allomancy/feruchemy.
The chimera from SoS did have one spike only (seemingly) and I would call looking like that serious problem

Oooof. Yeah, human attributes in Hemalurgy will mess you up pretty quickly 

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Problems, not that much. but they do "feel" them: TLM epilogue 7:

Yup, he can feel it, but doesn't seem to mind it too much (he does mention to Marsh that he's considered removing it, but hasn't seemed to have put a lot of effort into it, suggesting it isn't a big burden)