Mistchemist16 Posted April 15, 2023 Posted April 15, 2023 (edited) Since the topic of Reverse Compounding has come up in a few recent threads, I wanted to do some speculation. See what we know and what we can assume. Here are my motes First, a quick summary via the relevant WoB Quote Open The Fridge Interview (Nov. 16, 2011) <snip> Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful. Through some method, it is possible to do this in reverse. Use Feruchemy to enhance Allomancy Quote Chaos (paraphrased) I continued to ask about the Lord Ruler and his Allomantic strength. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There's an upper bound to the amount of power you can get from being a savant. Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin. He implied that there was a way to Compound to enhance Allomancy. Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011) Here are a few possibilites 1. Some metal combinations enable reverse Compounding simply by having similar powers. Tin is compatible with other sensory Allomancy and F-Pewter stores the strength from A-Pewter. In the latter example, a Pewter Compunder could store the strength from A-Pewter instead of muscles, then Compound to gain strength without muscles. In addition, a Feruchemist can tap way more from their metalminds than an Allomancer. For example, a Twinborn with A-Bronze and F-Tin could store bronze sense for a day. They could then compress it to gain Duralumin level bronze, which wouldn’t be possible even via flaring. 2. Depending on how F-Nicrosil works, it may provide a boost to abilities stored in nicrosilminds. In this regard, it would be similar to A-Duralumin. Both are useless on their own but boost other powers. Though it is worth noting that abilites are more like coppermind memories rather than speed from steel. Make of that what you will. Quote Pagerunner When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned? Brandon Sanderson Good question! Like a coppermind. 3. The reason Compounding only provides the Feruchemical ability is because a metalmind naturally filters the Investiture to do that instead of Allomancy. If you could get the power in the metalmind to think it’s Allomancy, you should theoretically get that extra Investiture on top of what you get from burning normally. This may be as simple as having proper Intent. After all, Compounders get the Allomantic effects by default if they haven’t practiced. This method simply extends that Intention towards changing the contents of the metalmind. But if it is more difficult, it would likely require some unknown method of Spirtual Realm hacking. Naturally, this method requires one to have the Allomantic and Feruchemical powers of the metal one wishes to reverse Compound. Quote Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015) Moogle Compounding requires practice, according to The Hero of Age's annotations. And yet, it's apparently as easy as burning a metalmind. What was going on that meant the Inquisitors couldn't figure out how to do it (despite Ruin likely knowing how and undoubtedly wanting them to learn) for over a year? What skill did they need to practice doing, exactly? And what happened while they were practicing burning metalminds without successfully Compounding? Did they get an Allomantic effect? Brandon Sanderson What I think I was getting at in the annotations was a cosmere magic rule that, perhaps, I hadn't completely refined yet. This is the idea that INTENTION is vitally important to the workings of most cosmere magics. You can learn to burn metals instinctively over time, but it does take time--time for your body to figure out what it's doing. If you have instruction and guidance, you can pick it up in an evening, like Vin did. Same goes for most of the magics. This ties into Awakening, with the idea that you have to form a command. During Warbreaker was where I really refined this aspect of the magic. Logically, since the beginning of the cosmere, I've wanted all three Realms to be important to the way the magics worked. The "Practice" therefore for compounding is mental practice--a barrier to overcome in understanding what is happening, and what it will do to you. If you already know all of these things by having it explained to you, that barrier is far less high. I think that was what I was talking about in the Annotations, without really having the idea specified yet--though I'd have to look back at the annotation and re-read it to say for certain 4. This last one is somewhat unique, so bear with me on the steps. Suppose you were a Compounder with this method. First, you need a regular piece of metal and ingest it. Once you have the reserve, focus on it and act as if you were tapping from a metalmind. The metal will start disintegrating as if it had been burned normally and provide the Allomantic effect. However, your Intent is tapping, so the Allomantic power acts like a Feruchemical attribute. You can then store this altered power into a new metal of the same type, just like regular Compounders do. The result is a metalmind that stores an Allomantic power. For example, you could make a zinc mind that stores Rioting. You can tap it as a normal Feruchemist does, which includes compressing it for more power than flaring or even Duralumin. Alternatively, you could Compound it. Either way, you’d have access to that on top of your normal Compounding. Which means every Compounder would effectively have Duralumin or worse on demand. It would also explain why the Lord Ruler’s Allomancy is so insane: he could’ve easily cracked this trick. It’d also apply to the Bands of Mourning. If method 3 or 4 is true, that also helps solve the mystery of why some Inquistors had F-Atium spikes. Ruin would’ve intended the Inquistors to not only function as immortal Cosmere agents, but agents who could Compound Atium sight. They hadn’t yet learned this technique in HoA, but would’ve had time to practice had Ruin won. But why was Marsh not given that spike? It could be because he had too many other spikes, but this is unlikely. Ruin probably would’ve switched one out if he needed. Instead, I believe that it was about loyalty. One of the perks of empowered Atium is seeing the Spiritual Realm. I suspect that Ruin didn’t want Marsh to achieve such power, leaving it to more loyal and bloodthirsty Inquisitors. I would like to give credit to @alder24 for inspiring my thought proccess. Their words on my F-Atium threads inspired both this post and theory #4 (my favorite of the bunch). If you want to give me a reputation, I would reccomend giving them one too. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Good night. Edit: Forgot to put the WoB about storing strength from A-Pewter in F-Pewter. Here it is Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound. Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011) Edited April 16, 2023 by Mistchemist16 Typos 3
Trusk'our he/him Posted April 16, 2023 Posted April 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Mistchemist16 said: Since the topic of Reverse Compounding has come up in a few recent threads, I wanted to do some speculation. See what we know and what we can assume. Here are my motes First, a quick summary via the relevant WoB Through some method, it is possible to do this in reverse. Use Feruchemy to enhance Allomancy Here are a few possibilites 1. Some metal combinations enable reverse Compounding simply by having similar powers. Tin is compatible with other sensory Allomancy and F-Pewter stores the strength from A-Pewter. In the latter example, a Pewter Compunder could store the strength from A-Pewter instead of muscles, then Compound to gain strength without muscles. In addition, a Feruchemist can tap way more from their metalminds than an Allomancer. For example, a Twinborn with A-Bronze and F-Tin could store bronze sense for a day. They could then compress it to gain Duralumin level bronze, which wouldn’t be possible even via flaring. I think that this is an interesting idea. We know that it is possible to store Bronzesense inside a Tinmind, so it's likely that you could store excess healing and possibly strength from pewter (though it may just make it easier to store at a higher percentage than normal). Quote https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e9199 NewbSombrero Can Feruchemical tin store Allomantically granted senses like bronze sense? Brandon Sanderson Possible. It would be really cool to see if you could store A-pewter's muscle enhancement without F-pewter's bulk, but we'd need to see this in books or get a good WoB for me to put my money on it. 1 hour ago, Mistchemist16 said: 2. Depending on how F-Nicrosil works, it may provide a boost to abilities stored in nicrosilminds. In this regard, it would be similar to A-Duralumin. Both are useless on their own but boost other powers. Though it is worth noting that abilites are more like coppermind memories rather than speed from steel. Make of that what you will. The quote was talking specifically about the Malwish Medallion tech, so it's possible that it is different than a normal Nicrosilmind. If a normal Nicrosilmind still acts "like a Coppermind" however, I would venture to say that Compounding would only copy the power, not increase the power you get from it (and tapping it faster wouldn't help either). 1 hour ago, Mistchemist16 said: 3. The reason Compounding only provides the Feruchemical ability is because a metalmind naturally filters the Investiture to do that instead of Allomancy. If you could get the power in the metalmind to think it’s Allomancy, you should theoretically get that extra Investiture on top of what you get from burning normally. This may be as simple as having proper Intent. After all, Compounders get the Allomantic effects by default if they haven’t practiced. This method simply extends that Intention towards changing the contents of the metalmind. But if it is more difficult, it would likely require some unknown method of Spirtual Realm hacking. Naturally, this method requires one to have the Allomantic and Feruchemical powers of the metal one wishes to reverse Compound. Ah, so basically, you fill a Metalmind normally, but you convince the Investiture inside to act as it's Allomantic counterpart when tapped? I think that would be really neat, but you may require more than Intent, since when you store the metal it's Keyed to a specific use; you wouldn't be able to Feruchemicaly store in pewter and get Allomantic pewter than you could store strength and get health from it even if you had the proper Intent. More action would be required to reprogram it, though it might be possible with some work. I wonder if you were to Blank your Identity whilst storing you could leave the stored Investiture susceptible to manipulation. Then, you use a special method discovered in RoW... Spoiler Use Navani's method of changing an Investiture's Tone. Use Allomantic bronze and possibly Feruchemical duralumin (Connection) to learn the Rhythm of the Allomantic power you want the Metalmind to take after. Then, convince the Investiture inside the Metalmind to change to that Rhythm. Perhaps then you could tap the new Investiture and convince it to act as it's Allomantic counterpart and possibly even Compound it. It's an educated guess, but I think that it may be possible to pull off. 1 hour ago, Mistchemist16 said: 4. This last one is somewhat unique, so bear with me on the steps. Suppose you were a Compounder with this method. First, you need a regular piece of metal and ingest it. Once you have the reserve, focus on it and act as if you were tapping from a metalmind. The metal will start disintegrating as if it had been burned normally and provide the Allomantic effect. However, your Intent is tapping, so the Allomantic power acts like a Feruchemical attribute. You can then store this altered power into a new metal of the same type, just like regular Compounders do. The result is a metalmind that stores an Allomantic power. For example, you could make a zinc mind that stores Rioting. You can tap it as a normal Feruchemist does, which includes compressing it for more power than flaring or even Duralumin. Alternatively, you could Compound it. Either way, you’d have access to that on top of your normal Compounding. Which means every Compounder would effectively have Duralumin or worse on demand. It would also explain why the Lord Ruler’s Allomancy is so insane: he could’ve easily cracked this trick. It’d also apply to the Bands of Mourning. Interesting. So, if I have what you're saying correct, you mean to say that with the proper Intent you could burn a metal Allomantically and then store its Investiture Feruchemically? It's an interesting idea, but it may be a bit of a stretch; I think that more than Intent would be required to make such a power work, though using the method of tweaking I came up with in #3, maybe? 1 hour ago, Mistchemist16 said: If method 3 or 4 is true, that also helps solve the mystery of why some Inquistors had F-Atium spikes. Ruin would’ve intended the Inquistors to not only function as immortal Cosmere agents, but agents who could Compound Atium sight. They hadn’t yet learned this technique in HoA, but would’ve had time to practice had Ruin won. But why was Marsh not given that spike? It could be because he had too many other spikes, but this is unlikely. Ruin probably would’ve switched one out if he needed. Instead, I believe that it was about loyalty. One of the perks of empowered Atium is seeing the Spiritual Realm. I suspect that Ruin didn’t want Marsh to achieve such power, leaving it to more loyal and bloodthirsty Inquisitors. I agree completely on the loyalty part; I don't think that Ruin would have wanted to bother keeping around Marsh longer than necessary since he resisted so much. Too much hassel. I think that the Inquisitors who had F-Atium spikes likely had them either because they were experimenting between the death of Rashek and the release of Ruin on Keeper powers (Rashek likely didn't want them to have too much Feruchemy for fear of them learning to Compound, so likely didn't tell them all of the Feruchemical powers), or than Ruin wanted a few of his more loyal Inquisitors to survive long enough to continue acting as his agents in the Cosmere after the fall of Scadrial. Could be that Ruin wanted them to be able to Reverse Compound Atium, but if #4 is true wouldn't they still use Atium up in the process? Overall, good post @Mistchemist16, nice work, nice discussion
Mistchemist16 Posted April 16, 2023 Author Posted April 16, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: I think that this is an interesting idea. We know that it is possible to store Bronzesense inside a Tinmind, so it's likely that you could store excess healing and possibly strength from pewter (though it may just make it easier to store at a higher percentage than normal). It would be really cool to see if you could store A-pewter's muscle enhancement without F-pewter's bulk, but we'd need to see this in books or get a good WoB for me to put my money on it. I do actually have a WoB that I neglected to post the first time. I’ve edited the OG post but I’ll put it here too Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound. Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011) 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: The quote was talking specifically about the Malwish Medallion tech, so it's possible that it is different than a normal Nicrosilmind. If a normal Nicrosilmind still acts "like a Coppermind" however, I would venture to say that Compounding would only copy the power, not increase the power you get from it (and tapping it faster wouldn't help either). Good point. I do actually have my own seperate line of theories about the medallions, but I don’t think they contradict the idea that nicrosilminds are like most metalminds (not distinct). 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: Ah, so basically, you fill a Metalmind normally, but you convince the Investiture inside to act as it's Allomantic counterpart when tapped? I think that would be really neat, but you may require more than Intent, since when you store the metal it's Keyed to a specific use; you wouldn't be able to Feruchemicaly store in pewter and get Allomantic pewter than you could store strength and get health from it even if you had the proper Intent. More action would be required to reprogram it, though it might be possible with some work. I wonder if you were to Blank your Identity whilst storing you could leave the stored Investiture susceptible to manipulation. Then, you use a special method discovered in RoW... Reveal hidden contents Use Navani's method of changing an Investiture's Tone. Use Allomantic bronze and possibly Feruchemical duralumin (Connection) to learn the Rhythm of the Allomantic power you want the Metalmind to take after. Then, convince the Investiture inside the Metalmind to change to that Rhythm. Perhaps then you could tap the new Investiture and convince it to act as it's Allomantic counterpart and possibly even Compound it. It's an educated guess, but I think that it may be possible to pull off. Yeah. This is the method I feel like you’d need Spiritual Realm hacking. The impression I get is that a normal metal’s molecular structure aligns with its Cognitive and Spiritual aspects. If all three work together, you get Allomancy. Making it into a metalmind alters all but the physical, so you’d have a really hard time convincing it. Especially since you’d have to alter not just the Cognitive Realm, but the Spiritual. 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: Interesting. So, if I have what you're saying correct, you mean to say that with the proper Intent you could burn a metal Allomantically and then store its Investiture Feruchemically? It's an interesting idea, but it may be a bit of a stretch; I think that more than Intent would be required to make such a power work, though using the method of tweaking I came up with in #3, maybe? Yep. It’s basically a hybrid hack of burning and tapping. When you first activate the reserve, it functions like Allomantic burning. For example, zinc would give you Rioting. But once the power enters your body, your Intent makes it behave like Feruchemy. It still has the Allomantic effect, just like a metalmind using for Compounding burns while providing Feruchemy. But since your hacked power thinks it’s Feruchemy, it can be stored. It’s also something that I don’t think needs Spiritual hacking. It’s a trick no one would ever think to try without inherent Shardic knowledge. Which makes sense, since our two main suspects for this use are Rashek and Kelsier, both of whom qualify from their time with Preservation. I also imagine that if you activate the reserve with this Intent, the metal will still be under the limits of normal flaring, but everything provided while it burns functions with Feruchemical properties. So you can leave hacked bronze burning and store at any time in a bronzemind: immediate transfer isn’t required. But most interesting of all, it makes Compounders even more crazy. Their Allomancy gains most of the benefits of Feruchemy, bypassing all known power limits and maybe even becoming undetectable to bronze. Their Feruchemy is fueled at no cost by regular Compounding, as we’ve already seen. It’s the perfect marriage of both systems and combines their best qualities 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: I agree completely on the loyalty part; I don't think that Ruin would have wanted to bother keeping around Marsh longer than necessary since he resisted so much. Too much hassel. I think that the Inquisitors who had F-Atium spikes likely had them either because they were experimenting between the death of Rashek and the release of Ruin on Keeper powers (Rashek likely didn't want them to have too much Feruchemy for fear of them learning to Compound, so likely didn't tell them all of the Feruchemical powers), or than Ruin wanted a few of his more loyal Inquisitors to survive long enough to continue acting as his agents in the Cosmere after the fall of Scadrial. Could be that Ruin wanted them to be able to Reverse Compound Atium, but if #4 is true wouldn't they still use Atium up in the process? Overall, good post @Mistchemist16, nice work, nice discussion Thank you for the compliment! I do think loyalty is the only reason to explain the F-Atium puzzle. Ruin clearly spent lots of effort making Marsh into a perfect battle pawn. He gave Marsh Duralumin fresh from a Mistborn, even though it was a waste. So if Ruin did value F-Atium in any way, then logically Marsh should’ve received it too. Unless Ruin wanted to save those powers for pawns who wouldn’t struggle. And any plausible use of F-Atium would be in the long term, when Marsh’s struggles would become a greater liability. Given what we know about F-Atium, we have to assume Ruin still intended to use Inquistors after destroying Scadrial. Either immortality or reverse Compounding are great reasons to get F-Atium. For approach #4, the main benefit of reverse Compounding is seeing the Spiritual Realm, though longer future sight doesn’t hurt either. Approach #3 could do the same but also be better or worse at it, depending on how efficient the conversion is. But if anything, I do think atium’s ability to see the Spiritual Realm would be far more valuable than the combat power. After all, any Atium spent reverse Compounding could just be burned for its regular effect, instead of being compressed to achieve the same goal. Edited April 16, 2023 by Mistchemist16 1
alder24 Posted April 16, 2023 Posted April 16, 2023 12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said: 1. Some metal combinations enable reverse Compounding simply by having similar powers. Tin is compatible with other sensory Allomancy and F-Pewter stores the strength from A-Pewter. In the latter example, a Pewter Compunder could store the strength from A-Pewter instead of muscles, then Compound to gain strength without muscles. In addition, a Feruchemist can tap way more from their metalminds than an Allomancer. For example, a Twinborn with A-Bronze and F-Tin could store bronze sense for a day. They could then compress it to gain Duralumin level bronze, which wouldn’t be possible even via flaring. This is an option, but I wouldn't call it reverse compounding. 12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said: 2. Depending on how F-Nicrosil works, it may provide a boost to abilities stored in nicrosilminds. In this regard, it would be similar to A-Duralumin. Both are useless on their own but boost other powers. Though it is worth noting that abilites are more like coppermind memories rather than speed from steel. Make of that what you will. This very likely can be related to reverse compounding, but likely normal compounding would be required first. The WoB you quoted is about nicrosil in medallions but we know from Wax that nicrosil in the Bands is running out of attribute, and compounding was required to fill it up again. That's how normal Feruchemical nicrosil might work. And storing Allomantic attributes in nicrosilmind, and compounding it might make it stronger for certain period of time. Spoiler Calderis Does the nicrosil portion of the medallions function identitically to how a Soulbearer Ferring would use Nicrosil? Brandon Sanderson Not exactly. The medallion is a little more restrictive, for one thing. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018) 12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said: 3. The reason Compounding only provides the Feruchemical ability is because a metalmind naturally filters the Investiture to do that instead of Allomancy. If you could get the power in the metalmind to think it’s Allomancy, you should theoretically get that extra Investiture on top of what you get from burning normally. This may be as simple as having proper Intent. After all, Compounders get the Allomantic effects by default if they haven’t practiced. This method simply extends that Intention towards changing the contents of the metalmind. But if it is more difficult, it would likely require some unknown method of Spirtual Realm hacking. Naturally, this method requires one to have the Allomantic and Feruchemical powers of the metal one wishes to reverse Compound. I highly doubt you could just wish for the attribute in metalmind to become something else. There are too many restrictions in Feruchemy, and every attribute in metalmind has its own tone, changing it just like that is not possible. SA spoilers Spoiler You would need to do something like Navani did in RoW, blank the tone of investiture and reprogram it to another If you manage to change it, you would end up with investiture that normally should be in nicrosilmind, but is in steelmind instead. I don't think you need to change the investiture in metalmind. Maybe with proper intent you can overwrite normal compounding and use investiture in metalminds as a different type of filter, that's strengthen your Allomancy instead. I do think that this option might be close to the truth, you need to somehow use investiture in metalmind to provide more Allomantic power, but how, that’s too hard to tell. 12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said: 4. This last one is somewhat unique, so bear with me on the steps. Suppose you were a Compounder with this method. First, you need a regular piece of metal and ingest it. Once you have the reserve, focus on it and act as if you were tapping from a metalmind. The metal will start disintegrating as if it had been burned normally and provide the Allomantic effect. However, your Intent is tapping, so the Allomantic power acts like a Feruchemical attribute. You can then store this altered power into a new metal of the same type, just like regular Compounders do. The result is a metalmind that stores an Allomantic power. For example, you could make a zinc mind that stores Rioting. You can tap it as a normal Feruchemist does, which includes compressing it for more power than flaring or even Duralumin. Alternatively, you could Compound it. Either way, you’d have access to that on top of your normal Compounding. Which means every Compounder would effectively have Duralumin or worse on demand. It would also explain why the Lord Ruler’s Allomancy is so insane: he could’ve easily cracked this trick. It’d also apply to the Bands of Mourning. That's expand option 3, which does seem to make some sense. However, like in option 3, you now have an attribute in a zincmind that should be stored in nicrosilmind. But what you propose is kinetic Allomantic investiture being stored, not innate (part of your soul that provides you Allomantic ability). This might be the way around it that would make it work. Normal nicrosil compounding can explain how Rashek's Allomancy was so strong, as well as the Bands, but I don't think that's reverse compounding, as that's just compounding. So there must be another way to truly get reverse compounding, without simply compounding nicrosil. Maybe more accessible to twinborns and Inquisitors, your 3rd and 4th ideas might be close to it, somehow tricking your metalminds to store attribute like in nicrosilmind, and burn it/tap it, which gives you additional power. However I worry that this might not work at all. If there is a different type of investiture in a metalmind, then it might be fully inaccessible to you, and burning it would not give you any power, per these WoBs Spoiler Questioner So, about Feruchemy. If someone takes, for example, a copper metalmind, fills it with memories, and then a tin metalmind, fills it with senses, then melts them together into a bronze metalmind, would you be able to tap anything from it, and what? Brandon Sanderson If you made an alloy of them, you would not get anything out of them. You would know there's Investiture in there, but you wouldn't be able to pull it out. Questioner Even if it's your own? Brandon Sanderson Even if it's your own, yup. They would interfere with each other to the point that you wouldn't be able to get anything out. Sorry. Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019) Spoiler Rogaen What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again? Brandon Sanderson If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.) This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO. eSPiaLx Similarly, if you were to soulcast a metal would it have similar effects of corrupting the investiture and making it inaccessible? Like if you turned a steel metalmind into pewter. Brandon Sanderson I've stayed away from soulcasting and forging in these types of discussions, as I feel my answers will dig too deeply and prompt more questions that, eventually, will lead to lots of RAFO type questions. I don't really want to go there--but I will say this. Changing invested objects with other magics is hard, and often requires such a force of investiture yourself, that it becomes very power-inefficient. Just like we can technically turn lead into gold right now--by spending way more money than the gold is worth. BipedSnowman So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture? OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope? Brandon Sanderson I see no reason why these wouldn't work. dce42 So would forging with the blood of a radiant(kaladin, dalinar,etc) work on a shard blade from a fallen radiant to say change who they had bonded, or how the bond was broken (to say death instead of giving up on the oath)? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. General Reddit 2016 (Nov. 11, 2016) Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) What would happen if Allomancer was also an Awakener and Awakened metal he'd burn? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) If he did that, he’d get Allomantic power and also get back the Breaths used in Awakening the metal. Footnote: Supposedly it was around half an hour into the signing line; has not been found on the record although we may have started it after it was asked already; follow-up to this Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017) This WoB might suggest that even if investiture in a metalminds was inaccessible by tapping, because it isn't right type of investiture, when being burnt, you would get that investiture back (investiture won't get lost), and if that's Allomantic kinetic investiture (like steel push in a steelmind) your own steel push would get stronger than normally, by the amount of kinetic investiture released during burning that metalmind. 12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said: But why was Marsh not given that spike? Don't focus too much on Marsh. In most cases he was the closest Ruin had, like the closest to Fadrex, to Goradel etc, that's why Ruin used him. Marsh, like other Inquisitors, was simply doing many other duties during the whole HoA, he wasn't that important, he was just a tool that was the closest for Ruin to use. Yes, Marsh got the most spikes of all Inquisitors, but that doesn't really mean that he was the main Inquisitor, maybe that's because Ruin saw in his future vision that Marsh will be important in defeating Vin and Elend, and that's why he gave them so many spikes? Or maybe Marsh was the first one to get all those spikes and rest were soon to follow him as well, but they couldn't simply find enough Mistborn/Feruchemist? Also I don't think Ruin would be worried about Marsh loyalty, Marsh was under full Ruin's control, and he get out of this only because Ruin was pushed away by Kelsier at the right moment, something that can't be repeated after Ruin's victory. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Four Marsh Kills a Smoker This chapter was a late addition to the book. My agent, during his second read through the novel, noticed that Marsh basically disappeared through the middle of the novel—much as he had in book two. In addition, the reader got very little sense of what was happening in the Central Dominance while all of the characters were out taking care of other cities. In my books, the cities themselves tend to be characters, and Joshua was disappointed to not have at least a few token mentions of Luthadel in the middle of book three. I agreed with him, and that's where this Marsh chapter—along with the next one—came from. An attempt to have him doing something, rather than just sitting around being controlled by Ruin, while at the same time showing some of what is going on in places where there aren't any main characters to narrate for us. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Oct. 27, 2009) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Forty-Two Marsh Visits Penrod in Luthadel This chapter didn't exist in the initial draft of the book; I added it in revisions. I originally liked the idea of the characters happening upon Luthadel later in the book and having to piece together what happened to Penrod from the aftermath of his getting spiked. Ultimately I decided to drop that in favor of showing this chapter in-scene. It was a tough choice, but knew I needed to show Marsh being active. I also had enough complaints from alpha readers about the lack of news from Luthadel that I realized showing this scene would work better. We are so attached to Luthadel as a city that it's hard not to know what's going on there. Plus, this choice allowed me to include some interesting things—such as talking about what Marsh and the other Inquisitors were doing with their time and showing another character getting spiked. You may remember one of the spiking attempts on Elend earlier in this novel, right at the beginning. I flirted with putting more of these in, but decided that it would grow too obvious and too heavy-handed if I emphasized it that much. (The scene I toyed with included a madman unexpectedly rushing Elend with a spike.) I think this is the last of the Marsh insert chapters, meaning others you read after this were in the first draft. You'll probably notice a larger gap before seeing him again. Marsh and TenSoon kind of get lost in this third quarter of the book, I'm afraid. We still see them, but it's infrequently enough that Spook/Sazed and Vin/Elend dominate. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 26, 2009) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Marsh was there in the village Elend attacked a few chapters back, by the way. That is where he went after Luthadel; he took charge of a group of koloss and began leading them around to destroy cities. When Elend came to get the koloss, he was commanded to hold onto them for a time—and make it tough for Elend—but then to give them up and let them go. He was the nearest Inquisitor to Fadrex, which is why he's the one who showed up to claim the nonexistent atium. The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 25, 2010) 13 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said: I would like to give credit to @alder24 for inspiring my thought proccess. You're welcome. Nice work on exploring this idea.
Mistchemist16 Posted April 16, 2023 Author Posted April 16, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, alder24 said: This is an option, but I wouldn't call it reverse compounding. Out of curiosity, do you have another name for it? I ask because the term reverse Compounding generally has been used for this method on other threads. Whether normal Compounding is required depends on how medallion tech differs from nicrosil Feruchemy. If the latter does function like most attributes, instead of as a coppermind, you could compress that power without ever compounding. Hence the comparison to A-Duralumin 5 hours ago, alder24 said: This very likely can be related to reverse compounding, but likely normal compounding would be required first. The WoB you quoted is about nicrosil in medallions but we know from Wax that nicrosil in the Bands is running out of attribute, and compounding was required to fill it up again. That's how normal Feruchemical nicrosil might work. And storing Allomantic attributes in nicrosilmind, and compounding it might make it stronger for certain period of time. Reveal hidden contents Calderis Does the nicrosil portion of the medallions function identitically to how a Soulbearer Ferring would use Nicrosil? Brandon Sanderson Not exactly. The medallion is a little more restrictive, for one thing. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018) I highly doubt you could just wish for the attribute in metalmind to become something else. There are too many restrictions in Feruchemy, and every attribute in metalmind has its own tone, changing it just like that is not possible. SA spoilers Reveal hidden contents You would need to do something like Navani did in RoW, blank the tone of investiture and reprogram it to another If you manage to change it, you would end up with investiture that normally should be in nicrosilmind, but is in steelmind instead. I don't think you need to change the investiture in metalmind. Maybe with proper intent you can overwrite normal compounding and use investiture in metalminds as a different type of filter, that's strengthen your Allomancy instead. I do think that this option might be close to the truth, you need to somehow use investiture in metalmind to provide more Allomantic power, but how, that’s too hard to tell. I agree with you to an extent. I don’t believe it’s feasible to just change the filter of a Feruchemical attribute. It’s why I find theory #3 far less appealing than #4. I guess you could change it similar to how Ruin changes copperminds, while the Investiture is kinetic. But at that point, you’re being horrifically inefficient anyway 5 hours ago, alder24 said: That's expand option 3, which does seem to make some sense. However, like in option 3, you now have an attribute in a zincmind that should be stored in nicrosilmind. But what you propose is kinetic Allomantic investiture being stored, not innate (part of your soul that provides you Allomantic ability). This might be the way around it that would make it work. I do believe that storing this kinetic Investuture is greatly different from nicrosilminds,as you said. But keep in mind, this is a hack. It’s not impossible to trick these magic systems in a way. Compounding already shows elements of it by burning a metal yet getting Feruchemy. This is a more advanced technique, but on similar principles. Fittingly for reverse Compounding, method #4 uses the filter in reverse. The molecular structure of normal metal is itself a kind of filter. Compounding is using Allomancy to burn metal with a Feruchemy filter. Method #4 is using Feruchemy to tap from metal with an Allomantic filter. The unaltered metal/metal reserve is the filter for which power you get, but your method means you can store and tap. 5 hours ago, alder24 said: Normal nicrosil compounding can explain how Rashek's Allomancy was so strong, as well as the Bands, Yes and no. Mechanically, both should work and it’s certainly justified for the Bands. But I don’t believe it explains Rashek. It is technically possible that Rashek created nicrosil using the Well or made every dose himself. But remember, it would also mean he had no nicrosilminds on him at the end of TFE. If he did, then the crew would’ve found an unknown metal on his body. It’s not impossible, but it is tricky to justify. 5 hours ago, alder24 said: However I worry that this might not work at all. If there is a different type of investiture in a metalmind, then it might be fully inaccessible to you, and burning it would not give you any power, per these WoBs Reveal hidden contents Questioner So, about Feruchemy. If someone takes, for example, a copper metalmind, fills it with memories, and then a tin metalmind, fills it with senses, then melts them together into a bronze metalmind, would you be able to tap anything from it, and what? Brandon Sanderson If you made an alloy of them, you would not get anything out of them. You would know there's Investiture in there, but you wouldn't be able to pull it out. Questioner Even if it's your own? Brandon Sanderson Even if it's your own, yup. They would interfere with each other to the point that you wouldn't be able to get anything out. Sorry. Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019) Reveal hidden contents Rogaen What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again? Brandon Sanderson If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.) This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO. eSPiaLx Similarly, if you were to soulcast a metal would it have similar effects of corrupting the investiture and making it inaccessible? Like if you turned a steel metalmind into pewter. Brandon Sanderson I've stayed away from soulcasting and forging in these types of discussions, as I feel my answers will dig too deeply and prompt more questions that, eventually, will lead to lots of RAFO type questions. I don't really want to go there--but I will say this. Changing invested objects with other magics is hard, and often requires such a force of investiture yourself, that it becomes very power-inefficient. Just like we can technically turn lead into gold right now--by spending way more money than the gold is worth. BipedSnowman So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture? OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope? Brandon Sanderson I see no reason why these wouldn't work. dce42 So would forging with the blood of a radiant(kaladin, dalinar,etc) work on a shard blade from a fallen radiant to say change who they had bonded, or how the bond was broken (to say death instead of giving up on the oath)? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. General Reddit 2016 (Nov. 11, 2016) Reveal hidden contents Questioner (paraphrased) What would happen if Allomancer was also an Awakener and Awakened metal he'd burn? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) If he did that, he’d get Allomantic power and also get back the Breaths used in Awakening the metal. Footnote: Supposedly it was around half an hour into the signing line; has not been found on the record although we may have started it after it was asked already; follow-up to this Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017) This WoB might suggest that even if investiture in a metalminds was inaccessible by tapping, because it isn't right type of investiture, when being burnt, you would get that investiture back (investiture won't get lost), and if that's Allomantic kinetic investiture (like steel push in a steelmind) your own steel push would get stronger than normally, by the amount of kinetic investiture released during burning that metalmind. If you’ve hacked the system so the kinetic Investiture in Allomancy can be store, it should also be something you can tap. In those WoBs, you are talking about changing a metalmind after you’ve already stored in it. But in method #4, the power itself hasn’t changed. It’s just been wrong from the start because you hacked it. If it can do one part of Feruchemy (storing), it can do the other (tapping). 5 hours ago, alder24 said: Don't focus too much on Marsh. In most cases he was the closest Ruin had, like the closest to Fadrex, to Goradel etc, that's why Ruin used him. Marsh, like other Inquisitors, was simply doing many other duties during the whole HoA, he wasn't that important, he was just a tool that was the closest for Ruin to use. Yes, Marsh got the most spikes of all Inquisitors, but that doesn't really mean that he was the main Inquisitor, maybe that's because Ruin saw in his future vision that Marsh will be important in defeating Vin and Elend, and that's why he gave them so many spikes? Or maybe Marsh was the first one to get all those spikes and rest were soon to follow him as well, but they couldn't simply find enough Mistborn/Feruchemist? Interesting. I remeber other threads have suggested that Ruin was trying to be extra cruel to the crew, but now I’m thinking that’s improbable. He didn’t really care about them except as pawns. And the only times Marsh enounters them is when he’s already nearby (Fardrex, the village) or needs to fulfill some other objective (getting Atium in the Battle of Hathsin). I do think the second option is less likely. Ruin would probably know how many Mistborn there were. He didnt known which people were Duralumin gnats because they didn’t know. But most Mistborn would know and probably be using their powers regularly. Your first explanation seems to be the best one. It does also make me wonder what build Ruin’s Inquistors had. The most important ones would probably have A-Duralumin, F-Pewter, F-Steel, and perhaps one of the mental metals if we assume the brass spike in the prologue wasn’t for Marsh. Slapped on a Misting with Marsh’s old build, that’d be 15 spikes. But Ruin may have also given more out. I’m just assuming that the rare ones who got A-Duralumin also had the most spikes in common with Marsh. Quote Of course, this did give us a slight advantage, at the end. Ruin had a lot of trouble giving duralumin to his Inquisitors, since they'd need an Allomancer who could burn it to kill before they could use it. And, since none of the duralumin Mistings in the world knew about their power, they didn't burn it and reveal themselves to Ruin. That left most Inquisitors without the power of duralumin, save in a few important cases—such as Marsh—where they got it from a Mistborn. This was usually considered a waste, for if one killed a Mistborn with Hemalurgy, one could draw out only one of their sixteen powers and lost the rest. Ruin considered it much better to try to subvert them and gain access to all of their power. Edited April 16, 2023 by Mistchemist16
Recommended Posts