Was Adonalsium a Physical Person?

[JohnnyKaizen]

Has Brandon, or anyone, every confirmed that Adonalsium was a sapient being before the Shattering? I guess, more specifically, was their an equivalence to a vessel before the Shattering? Or was Ado simply sentient power? Or is that still a mystery? 

Edited April 11 by JohnnyKaizen

[PinkPlasma]

as far as I'm aware, it's still a mystery, but I'd say sentient power

[Quantus]

32 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Has Brandon, or anyone, every confirmed that Adonalsium was a sapient being before the Shattering? I guess, more specifically, was their an equivalence to a vessel before the Shattering? Or was Ado simply sentient power? Or is that still a mystery? 

Im not sure he intended to Confirm it initially, but Yes: Adonalsium was a sapient entity capable of having opinions and making decisions that are separate and distinct from the sort of hard rules that would bind an unthinking Force of Nature.  By Cosmere rules Spren could have accessed surges with Fabrials, etc before the Shattering, but Adonalsium would not allow it. 

He Thinks therefore He IS.

 

Quote

 

Pod

You’ve said that you would call Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and fabrials the three magics on Roshar. Would it be more accurate to say that Surgebinding followed and emulated fabrials and/orthe possibility of fabrials or vice versa?

Brandon Sanderson

 Vice versa. Fabrials are... generally, Surgebinders first, fabrials second. 

Pod

So you couldn’t have done fabrials when it was just Adonalsium. 

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, before the [Shattering]? *deep in thought mmming*

Pod

Would the spren have still been able to do Surges then?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say... no. No, Adonalsium probably would not have let that happen. You could theoretically do it, if Adonalsium allowed it. 

Pod

He had boundaries against it. 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So, I would say no. 

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

 

 

Quote

 

Pod (paraphrased)

You said at the Starsight release that [Adonalsium] was intentionally preventing the spren from accessing Surges through fabrials and such pre-Shattering. Was this a passive or active effect?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It was kind of both - the way [Adonalsium] worked was just that the way he saw the world [magic] was the way the world [magic] worked. He didn't want the spren to be able to do that, so they couldn't.

Pod (paraphrased)

So did [Adonalsium] want to die?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*makes face along with various non committal hmings*

Pod (paraphrased)

That at least gives credibility to the theory.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah, it gives credibility to the theory.

Footnote: *I don't know how to describe the face - it definitely wasn't confirmation but it looked incriminating to me. Brandon corrected ’world’ to ’magic’ after I left.
American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019)

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11 by Quantus

[JohnnyKaizen]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im not sure he intended to Confirm it initially, but Yes: Adonalsium was a sapient entity capable of having opinions and making decisions that are separate and distinct from the srot of hard rules that would bind an unthinking Force of Nature.  By Cosmere rules Spren could have accessed surges with Fabrials, etc before the Shattering, but Adonalsium would not allow it. 

He Thinks therefore He IS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well that is more than enough for me. That's really awesome. Thank you.

[Duxredux]

There's a whole debate on this topic, both in-world and here on 17th Shard. Here's my thoughts:

Based on the Hero of Ages epigraphs, Sazed notes that the Shards seem to want a Vessel controlling the power. The fact that intelligent beings can Ascend at all (as opposed to what I would normally expect to happen if you absorb enough power that you vaporize), leads me to expect that this is a fundamental aspect of the powers of creation in the Cosmere. It seems likely that Adonalsium had the same mechanism for a Vessel directing the power and that this was not a new development from the Shattering (unless some huge Connection shenanigans also happened which is totally possible). It would be even stranger to me that a person can Ascend, release the power, and then go back to being a (relatively) normal person as a Sliver, if "safely" taking on the powers of creation wasn't built in. Shards if left without a Vessel in the right circumstances can develop some autonomy, which is a counterpoint to the original Vessel idea.

@JohnnyKaizen, if you find this fascinating, go to wob.coppermind.net if you haven't already. It has all of the stuff that Brandon has said during book signings, releases, spoiler streams, etc., and you can look up stuff on Adonalsium, the Shattering, Shards, and more. It's cool stuff.

Edited April 11 by Duxredux
added thought

[Ookla the Silver]

Ado Is Magic and Magic Is Him.

[JohnnyKaizen]

17 hours ago, Duxredux said:

There's a whole debate on this topic, both in-world and here on 17th Shard. Here's my thoughts:

Based on the Hero of Ages epigraphs, Sazed notes that the Shards seem to want a Vessel controlling the power. The fact that intelligent beings can Ascend at all (as opposed to what I would normally expect to happen if you absorb enough power that you vaporize), leads me to expect that this is a fundamental aspect of the powers of creation in the Cosmere. It seems likely that Adonalsium had the same mechanism for a Vessel directing the power and that this was not a new development from the Shattering (unless some huge Connection shenanigans also happened which is totally possible). It would be even stranger to me that a person can Ascend, release the power, and then go back to being a (relatively) normal person as a Sliver, if "safely" taking on the powers of creation wasn't built in. Shards if left without a Vessel in the right circumstances can develop some autonomy, which is a counterpoint to the original Vessel idea.

@JohnnyKaizen, if you find this fascinating, go to wob.coppermind.net if you haven't already. It has all of the stuff that Brandon has said during book signings, releases, spoiler streams, etc., and you can look up stuff on Adonalsium, the Shattering, Shards, and more. It's cool stuff.

There is a built in contradiction in canon. At least, if both Sazed and Vasher (Zahel) are telling the truth the best that they know it. While Sazed feels that the power seems to want/desire a vessel, Zahel tells Kaladin in chapter 15 of RoW that "Power that came alive on its own..the power wants to be alive...Cut off a piece of Divinity and leave it alone, eventually it comes alive."

So the power, wants a vessel, but left without one for long enough..it will just come alive on it's own.

Which raises another question. If all the vessels were killed and the Shards left in proximity to each other...would they form into 16 autonomous beings of power, or would they merge back into a single autonomous power? The answer(s) to the fundamental nature of the power, would change a lot in the Cosmere.

[Leuthie]

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Which raises another question. If all the vessels were killed and the Shards left in proximity to each other...would they form into 16 autonomous beings of power, or would they merge back into a single autonomous power? The answer(s) to the fundamental nature of the power, would change a lot in the Cosmere.

The only two examples we have are Devotion and Dominion, which combined to form Dor when they were placed in the Cognitive Realm of Sel together, and Ruin and Preservation, which both willing entered the same vessel as soon as presented with one. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Shards want to be together.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that Adonalsium wasn't a Vessel holding all of the Cosmere's Investiture. I'm gonna strongly speculate that all of the Cosmere's Investiture "naturally" resulted in its own sentience and that is what was Shattered. The 16 Intents are the pieces of the developed id, ego and superego of that entity. 

The Shards want to be one again. When a Vessel is killed, they find the nearest complete id, ego and superego to become a part of. This isn't the Shards wanting to held by a Vessel, this is the Shards wanting to be whole again and finding the nearest thing that is similar; the nearest thing that will bring them a semblance of wholeness. 

Finally, I believe if all Shards were separated from their Vessels at once, Adonalsium would reform, no matter where the destruction of the Vessels happened. Even Devotion and Dominion would break free from their prison to join it.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that Adonalsium wasn't a Vessel holding all of the Cosmere's Investiture. I'm gonna strongly speculate that all of the Cosmere's Investiture "naturally" resulted in its own sentience and that is what was Shattered. The 16 Intents are the pieces of the developed id, ego and superego of that entity. 

The Shards want to be one again. When a Vessel is killed, they find the nearest complete id, ego and superego to become a part of. This isn't the Shards wanting to held by a Vessel, this is the Shards wanting to be whole again and finding the nearest thing that is similar; the nearest thing that will bring them a semblance of wholeness. 

Finally, I believe if all Shards were separated from their Vessels at once, Adonalsium would reform, no matter where the destruction of the Vessels happened. Even Devotion and Dominion would break free from their prison to join it.

I agree Adonalsium wasn't a separate Vessel for the power, he was the power. 

Some of it may want to rejoin. I would argue that the Shard Odium is not interested in that. In the RoW epigraphs we get Harmony telling Wit that Odium is still going around destroying because it is what the Shard itself wants. Odium has been splintering shards this whole time. I think it wants to stay mad. It doesn't want to be merged with the other aspects of Adonalsium that would give it "context" as Frost put it in his letter to Hoid. 

Odium is the divine hatred of a specific god that these 16 people killed and took the power of. It seems to be holding a grudge. This is just my head canon based on what Harmony said. 

[JohnnyKaizen]

4 hours ago, Leuthie said:

The only two examples we have are Devotion and Dominion, which combined to form Dor when they were placed in the Cognitive Realm of Sel together, and Ruin and Preservation, which both willing entered the same vessel as soon as presented with one. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Shards want to be together.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that Adonalsium wasn't a Vessel holding all of the Cosmere's Investiture. I'm gonna strongly speculate that all of the Cosmere's Investiture "naturally" resulted in its own sentience and that is what was Shattered. The 16 Intents are the pieces of the developed id, ego and superego of that entity. 

The Shards want to be one again. When a Vessel is killed, they find the nearest complete id, ego and superego to become a part of. This isn't the Shards wanting to held by a Vessel, this is the Shards wanting to be whole again and finding the nearest thing that is similar; the nearest thing that will bring them a semblance of wholeness. 

Finally, I believe if all Shards were separated from their Vessels at once, Adonalsium would reform, no matter where the destruction of the Vessels happened. Even Devotion and Dominion would break free from their prison to join it.

This makes a lot of sense to me. And, whether or not it's true for the Cosmere, it is logical and, at the very least, probable.

[JohnnyKaizen]

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I agree Adonalsium wasn't a separate Vessel for the power, he was the power. 

Some of it may want to rejoin. I would argue that the Shard Odium is not interested in that. In the RoW epigraphs we get Harmony telling Wit that Odium is still going around destroying because it is what the Shard itself wants. Odium has been splintering shards this whole time. I think it wants to stay mad. It doesn't want to be merged with the other aspects of Adonalsium that would give it "context" as Frost put it in his letter to Hoid. 

Odium is the divine hatred of a specific god that these 16 people killed and took the power of. It seems to be holding a grudge. This is just my head canon based on what Harmony said. 

Ok, having read your and @Leuthie's comments one after the other, my brain sort of combined them. What if you're both correct? What if 15 (or 14, as Autonomy also seems to want nothing to do with the other Shards) of the Shards naturally want unification, and the very nature and Intent of what Odium became in the moment of the shattering, drives it in a direction counter to the others. I mean, even if a very small part of Adonalsium (no matter how small) was angered as the Shattering...any part of infinity is still infinity. Same would go for Autonomy as well, I would think.