Theory: The Parshmen are NOT Voidbringers

[happyman he/him]

First, there's also the possibility that Jasnah's right about Parshmen being Voidbringers, but that she doesn't really understand what the Voidbringers are, and that it's more complicated than she thinks.

Given that there are several things Jasnah doesn't know, this is what I feel is most likely. Her philosophy towards life opens her minds to a lot of possibilities that Alethi society considers impossible, but it also closes some doors that probably should have remained open, given what we as readers know about the Cosmere.

Given evidence, I have no doubt she would admit that the Almighty and Odium objectively exist, even if they are not as described by Vorinism, but I rather suspect that the evidence she would need would be much more than for a person dropped in the situation with no bias either way. She might well overlook hints of that part of the truth in the historical record, dismissing them as simple religious devotion, even while spotting things others miss, such as the Parshmen/Parshendi connection. Thus I doubt she has put together the whole context. Not everything in Roshar can be explained as "the same as yesterday, but longer ago."

[Thought]

I'd agree that the Parsh aren't voidbringers, or even active agents of Odium. We have a lot more evidence that they don't fit the descriptions than that they do.

First, there's the meta-arguments, which have already been touched upon. It is too early in the series for a major mystery to be solved, especially without a try-fail cycle. Also, scholars have a poor reputation for being right the first time in Sanderson's books (think about how often Sazed got it wrong in Mistborn). And finally, we as readers know that Jasnah's information is incomplete. We know that the “paranormal” things she rejects are actually possible, probable, and effectively real. Her foundational premise about the world is flawed. If she's right, then it is by luck, not by insight.

Second, Jasnah specifically ignores several bits of evidence that doesn't fit her theory. The voidbringers are said to suck in light: we haven't seen the Parsh do that. The voidbringers are said to be giant things, the parsh are not. The voidbringers are said to be fire and shadow, the parsh are not. The voidbringers are described as changing their shape, the Parsh are not. And so on, and so forth. Really, all we have is that the Parshendi (not the Parshmen) have stoney growths, and the voidbringers are said to be of stone, that they sing, and that their skin sort of vaguely fits the description of a quote that may or may not be about voidbringers (and, well, red and black and white could be described as flaming, burned, and ashen skin, although the records are quite clear that the fire is real).

Third, as others have noted, if the Parsh were voidbringers, then people would have noticed back when they still knew what voidbringers looked like. Specifically, the 10 Heralds would have known. Why would 9 of them have taken off when they knew that there were still voidbringers on Roshar? They clearly thought that they had defeated the voidbringers again. Why didn’t they realize the difference? Why didn’t the Knights Radiant, who were still around, mop up if nothing else?

And Fourth, we know that Sanderson did research on real world cultures for his book. I don't believe that there's been any confirmation of ancient Germanic culture being one of these, but that Parsh and the general situation shares a lot of similarities with the Germans and the Romans. The Parsh don't wear armor, Germans often didn't. The beards, of course. The fondness for strong alcohol (Szeth notes it in the prologue). Their non-standard tactics that work wonderfully for guerrilla warfare but horribly for standard warfare. Their barritus (the singing). The fact that some are trusted slaves of the "empire" while their brethren still fight on the outskirts. The similarities between The Desolation and Ragnarok. Their honorable actions. Even their assassination of a ruler. The point being, it seems unlikely that one legitimate culture would be the boogeymen in the closet. Sanderson's a bit too metropolotan for such.

Which isn't to say that the Parsh have no connection to the Desolation. I suspect voidbringers are, essentially, body snatchers who modify their hosts, and that the Parsh are those who were released at the end of Desolations. That would explain why various creatures, like Thunderclast, seem to have fought on both sides: they were possessed.

[Lightflame he/him]

I'd agree that the Parsh aren't voidbringers, or even active agents of Odium. We have a lot more evidence that they don't fit the descriptions than that they do.

First, there's the meta-arguments, which have already been touched upon. It is too early in the series for a major mystery to be solved, especially without a try-fail cycle. Also, scholars have a poor reputation for being right the first time in Sanderson's books (think about how often Sazed got it wrong in Mistborn). And finally, we as readers know that Jasnah's information is incomplete. We know that the “paranormal” things she rejects are actually possible, probable, and effectively real. Her foundational premise about the world is flawed. If she's right, then it is by luck, not by insight.

Second, Jasnah specifically ignores several bits of evidence that doesn't fit her theory. The voidbringers are said to suck in light: we haven't seen the Parsh do that. The voidbringers are said to be giant things, the parsh are not. The voidbringers are said to be fire and shadow, the parsh are not. The voidbringers are described as changing their shape, the Parsh are not. And so on, and so forth. Really, all we have is that the Parshendi (not the Parshmen) have stoney growths, and the voidbringers are said to be of stone, that they sing, and that their skin sort of vaguely fits the description of a quote that may or may not be about voidbringers (and, well, red and black and white could be described as flaming, burned, and ashen skin, although the records are quite clear that the fire is real).

Third, as others have noted, if the Parsh were voidbringers, then people would have noticed back when they still knew what voidbringers looked like. Specifically, the 10 Heralds would have known. Why would 9 of them have taken off when they knew that there were still voidbringers on Roshar? They clearly thought that they had defeated the voidbringers again. Why didn’t they realize the difference? Why didn’t the Knights Radiant, who were still around, mop up if nothing else?

And Fourth, we know that Sanderson did research on real world cultures for his book. I don't believe that there's been any confirmation of ancient Germanic culture being one of these, but that Parsh and the general situation shares a lot of similarities with the Germans and the Romans. The Parsh don't wear armor, Germans often didn't. The beards, of course. The fondness for strong alcohol (Szeth notes it in the prologue). Their non-standard tactics that work wonderfully for guerrilla warfare but horribly for standard warfare. Their barritus (the singing). The fact that some are trusted slaves of the "empire" while their brethren still fight on the outskirts. The similarities between The Desolation and Ragnarok. Their honorable actions. Even their assassination of a ruler. The point being, it seems unlikely that one legitimate culture would be the boogeymen in the closet. Sanderson's a bit too metropolotan for such.

Which isn't to say that the Parsh have no connection to the Desolation. I suspect voidbringers are, essentially, body snatchers who modify their hosts, and that the Parsh are those who were released at the end of Desolations. That would explain why various creatures, like Thunderclast, seem to have fought on both sides: they were possessed.

This. Yes. Many good reasons why the Parshendi aren't Voidbringers put together in one awesome post.

Anyway, I've been nursing a pet theory that Spren are Voidbringers, or at least shattered pieces of them. They change their shape, Truthspren can take you to Shadesmar (which could be considered "bringing the void"), they can be "bound" (shown in that interlude with the ardents), and they have a strange connection to Stormlight. Spren were used by the Knights Radiant, and Nohadon mentions them, but Power-Granting Spren seem to be different from the other spren. Either Spren has become a catch-all term for things floating around, or the Knights Radiant were using the powers of Voidbringers secretly. Also, someone mentioned the possibility of Gemhearts having spren in them. What if the "Voidbringer" picture Jasnah found indicated that a Voidbringer was controlling the Chasmfiend, not that the Chasmfiend was a Voidbringer?

I'm probably completely wrong here, given that Brandon is a writing God whose plot-twists can't be prematurely comprehended by mere mortals, but I wanted to get the theory out there.

[happyman he/him]

First, there's the meta-arguments, which have already been touched upon. It is too early in the series for a major mystery to be solved, especially without a try-fail cycle. Also, scholars have a poor reputation for being right the first time in Sanderson's books (think about how often Sazed got it wrong in Mistborn). And finally, we as readers know that Jasnah's information is incomplete. We know that the “paranormal” things she rejects are actually possible, probable, and effectively real. Her foundational premise about the world is flawed. If she's right, then it is by luck, not by insight.

If we are wrong about something far more fundamental, like what the Voidbringers are or whose side they fight on or why (my position), then it doesn't matter how early it is in the plot.

Second, Jasnah specifically ignores several bits of evidence that doesn't fit her theory. The voidbringers are said to suck in light: we haven't seen the Parsh do that. The voidbringers are said to be giant things, the parsh are not. The voidbringers are said to be fire and shadow, the parsh are not. The voidbringers are described as changing their shape, the Parsh are not. And so on, and so forth. Really, all we have is that the Parshendi (not the Parshmen) have stoney growths, and the voidbringers are said to be of stone, that they sing, and that their skin sort of vaguely fits the description of a quote that may or may not be about voidbringers (and, well, red and black and white could be described as flaming, burned, and ashen skin, although the records are quite clear that the fire is real).

I actually found the very quotes you consider to be evidence against her theory to be some of her prime evidence in favor of it. I suspect she did, too. After all, the annotations in the book are from her notebook; Shallan sees it in passing at one point, and at the end, it is that notebook that Jasnah uses to prove her case to Shallan. (Incidentally, that she was able to prove it to Shallan should prove that she has more than the meager pieces you left her.)

For instance:

suck in light: They have black skin

The voidbringers are said to be fire and shadow: red and black skin

The voidbringers are described as changing their shape: That would be the change from Parshmen to Parshendi

The records are quite clear that the fire is real: Why? If it is a translation of a translation, things like that can be easily lost, especially if the translators don't understand what they are translating

that they sing: I hope the reference is obvious. Singing while one fights seems kind of distinctive

No, I don't think Jasnah is ignoring anything in these particular quotes. She is treating them as reflections of reflections, which is appropriate.

The only question is a question of size. That is a dangling thread, but I don't really believe that we have the whole answer. I just think that Jasnah isn't completely wrong, either.

Third, as others have noted, if the Parsh were voidbringers, then people would have noticed back when they still knew what voidbringers looked like. Specifically, the 10 Heralds would have known. Why would 9 of them have taken off when they knew that there were still voidbringers on Roshar? They clearly thought that they had defeated the voidbringers again. Why didn’t they realize the difference? Why didn’t the Knights Radiant, who were still around, mop up if nothing else?

Good questions. The number of things that don't make sense is Rosharian pre-history is still quite large, though. Just add these to the list.

And Fourth, we know that Sanderson did research on real world cultures for his book. I don't believe that there's been any confirmation of ancient Germanic culture being one of these, but that Parsh and the general situation shares a lot of similarities with the Germans and the Romans. The Parsh don't wear armor, Germans often didn't. The beards, of course. The fondness for strong alcohol (Szeth notes it in the prologue). Their non-standard tactics that work wonderfully for guerrilla warfare but horribly for standard warfare. Their barritus (the singing). The fact that some are trusted slaves of the "empire" while their brethren still fight on the outskirts. The similarities between The Desolation and Ragnarok. Their honorable actions. Even their assassination of a ruler. The point being, it seems unlikely that one legitimate culture would be the boogeymen in the closet. Sanderson's a bit too metropolotan for such.

This one is a stretch. I agree that the Parshendi culture has some oddities to it which make it unlikely they are inherently bad guys, but that's not the same as saying that Jasnah is wrong.

Which isn't to say that the Parsh have no connection to the Desolation. I suspect voidbringers are, essentially, body snatchers who modify their hosts, and that the Parsh are those who were released at the end of Desolations. That would explain why various creatures, like Thunderclast, seem to have fought on both sides: they were possessed.

Possible, but I personally hope that the connection is more complicated, and that Jasnah is more right than wrong, but still wrong about something important!

[Thought]

If we are wrong about something far more fundamental, like what the Voidbringers are or whose side they fight on or why (my position), then it doesn't matter how early it is in the plot.

So, your argument is that we can’t say that the Parsh aren’t the voidbringers, because in the future there might be evidence that would necessitate we revise that supposition? This is in contrast to my (and other’s) supposition that, at present, we can’t say that the Parsh are voidbringers because, at present, the evidence doesn’t fit.

(Incidentally, that she was able to prove it to Shallan should prove that she has more than the meager pieces you left her.)

Not in the least. In fact, quite the opposite. That she convinces Shallan throws her conclusion into doubt. Shallan was just proven wrong about, well, everything. What evidence do we have that now, suddenly, Shallan is trustworthy? To be sure, she’s smart, and has a natural talent for scholarship, but she’s largely untrained. She doesn’t have the wide knowledge base to know when Jasnah’s evidence is taken out of context, to know why her evidence has been rejected by previous scholars, etc. Indeed, Jasnah biases Shallan by telling her the conclusion she’s supposed to draw. Further, Jasnah doesn’t present Shallan with an objective grouping of evidence, but rather those pieces of evidence she feels supports her claim. Not only does Jasnah bias Shallan, but she provided Shallan with a biased record.

For instance:

suck in light: They have black skin

The voidbringers are said to be fire and shadow: red and black skin

The voidbringers are described as changing their shape: That would be the change from Parshmen to Parshendi

The records are quite clear that the fire is real: Why? If it is a translation of a translation, things like that can be easily lost, especially if the translators don't understand what they are translating

that they sing: I hope the reference is obvious. Singing while one fights seems kind of distinctive

Why do you assume that descriptions of fire and shadow are metaphorical while the description of singing is literal? The only difference between the two that I can see is that, if literal, the latter supports the theory that the Parsh are voidbringers, while the former, if literal, does not. Which is to say, one is conforming the evidence to the theory, not the other way around.

Also, there’s no evidence that the Parshmen turn into the Parshendi by growing stoney skin plates. You are defending Jasnah ignoring that inconsistency by supposing something else that is unsupported.

No, I don't think Jasnah is ignoring anything in these particular quotes. She is treating them as reflections of reflections, which is appropriate.

Which isn’t appropriate, actually. She’s assuming that they are corrupted, but doesn’t produce evidence of it in the books. We already know that she’s wrong about the nature of Desolations. The records she’s working from are more accurate regarding them than she is. So, we have reason to believe that the records aren’t as corrupted as she assumes. So what she takes as metaphors, we know to take more literally than she does.Which, again, is metaknowledge that we have as readers. I don’t blame her for not knowing it, but that doesn’t make her theory right.

I do hope that Sanderson will surprise me with a delightful, surprising but inevitable revelation. But not this. That's neither delightful, surprising, nor inevitable.

[Observer]

Spren as Voidbringers? Gemhearts as Voidbringers? Those have to be the craziest, most absurd, inexcuseably random theories I've heard on these forums.

I love it.

Something even more Brandon-like would be to completely destroy the theory of Parshendi being Voidbringers, throw us a few red herrings, and then have it turn out they really were the VBs, and then everybody dies.

And yes, I love the fact that Jasnah catches what everyone misses, and misses what everyone catches. If she knew about shards, I imagine her studies would progress much more quickly. Either that or she'd disregard it.

But I guess that's what Shallan is for.

[Voidbringer]

While still on the fence, I lean more toward the Parshmen/Parshendi not being Voidbringers. Many of the reasons above coincide with my thoughts. In addition I still think that the stone-featured Parshendi are descendants of the stone-born children of Parasaphi and Nadris. I think that could also explain why they are honorable, since the stones from which they were born were supposedly touched by the Heralds (Since we know the Heralds were not in fact deities, it is likely this part of the story is a distortion, so take what you want from that). Although they were conceived from the seed of a dying man, so perhaps that has some significance as well.

[happyman he/him]

Well, I certainly don't have much more evidence to argue with, so we can just leave it here, then.

However, I would be just as disappointed as you if it turns out that Jasnah is completely wrong as you (or I, for that matter) would be if she was completely right. I still prefer the idea that she is somewhat right and was able to see some things more clearly from her background, but that her being right is wrong, at a deeper level.

But since I don't have a theory that includes all that, I'll just leave it at that. I do think, though, that the quotes Jasnah was referring to refer to Parshmen/Parshendi. Why there were referring to them, I do not know.

[Observer]

The odds of Jasnah being totally wrong are slim, but the odds of her getting more than a tenth of it right are slim as well. We have 9 more books in which to battle the forces of Odium, and I'd be sad if she was too close in her guess.

[Vortaan he/him]

The odds of Jasnah being totally wrong are slim, but the odds of her getting more than a tenth of it right are slim as well. We have 9 more books in which to battle the forces of Odium, and I'd be sad if she was too close in her guess.

You know, I would wager that fighting Odium isn't the overall storyline. Just like defeating the Lord Ruler/the armies/Ruin, I imagine that actually defeating Odium will lead to large problems for Dalinar and company, with Cosmere reaching consequences. After all, someone probably needs to take that Shard up if Rayse dies...

[Observer]

Either that or they just splinter it out on some abandoned rock. But yes, I'd wager this is bigger than Odium.

But if something's bigger than Odium, what'd the 17th Shard REALLY up to?

EDIT: Ruin could edit the prophesies to fit his needs. What if Odium has a similar power, and is using it to get Jasnah, Shallan, and anybody they tell their theory to, to focus on the Parshmen while Odium calls in the real Voidbringers? I doubt it's text editing as that's been done before, but I'm willing to bet Odium has something similar.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Observer

[Vortaan he/him]

Either that or they just splinter it out on some abandoned rock. But yes, I'd wager this is bigger than Odium.

But if something's bigger than Odium, what'd the 17th Shard REALLY up to?

EDIT: Ruin could edit the prophesies to fit his needs. What if Odium has a similar power, and is using it to get Jasnah, Shallan, and anybody they tell their theory to, to focus on the Parshmen while Odium calls in the real Voidbringers? I doubt it's text editing as that's been done before, but I'm willing to bet Odium has something similar.

Probably not, actually. Or at least, not in the same way... Ruin effectively Ruined the knowledge in those texts, didn't really have to stretch outside his Intent much to do it. Odium... hates the texts to change? I find it a lot more likely that Odium actually has more influence with people and cultures. More big picture than little picture, to put it another way.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

Probably not, actually. Or at least, not in the same way... Ruin effectively Ruined the knowledge in those texts, didn't really have to stretch outside his Intent much to do it. Odium... hates the texts to change? I find it a lot more likely that Odium actually has more influence with people and cultures. More big picture than little picture, to put it another way.

I was thinking that initially, but if that were to hold, I feel like we would have seen a lot more tribalism and societal schisms.

[Vortaan he/him]

I was thinking that initially, but if that were to hold, I feel like we would have seen a lot more tribalism and societal schisms.

To be fair we've seen Vorinism, and tiny hints of other cultures. Also, you don't think the Hierocracy could have been Odium's work? Religious authority gone wild has a hateful feel to it in my eyes.

[Observer]

To be fair we've seen Vorinism, and tiny hints of other cultures. Also, you don't think the Hierocracy could have been Odium's work? Religious authority gone wild has a hateful feel to it in my eyes.

You have a point there.

Been a while since I read WoK, but:

How do people feel about the Heralds/how are they portrayed?

People really don't seem to like them

How do people view the church after the hierocracy?

I detect a hint of dislike for what happened, and because of it the churches get very little power

What is Alethi culture almost based around/How do people feel about Parshendi

They really seem to get a lot of bloodlust. And they don't like Parshendi. Not even a thought is spared over the dead

I recal a theory that some king changed all the history books. It could simply be Odium's way of editing things through another person.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Observer

[Vikter]

I know Brandon would be unlikely to use the same trick twice and all, but has anyone considered that Odium could very well change the text of some of Jasnahs source materials. Even if part of his oath pact with Honor would stop him from direct intervention it may not cover something as minor as altering a few childrens books or collections of wives tales.

Obviously there would be no proof of this for at least a book or two until the reveal to the readers, but my tinfoil hat was getting rusty in the corner.

[Observer]

Text editing is very unlikely to occur unless Brandon wants to directly link the Shardic powers in book 2, which is, again, unlikely.

I find it more sound a theory that Odium influenced the aforementioned king to change history, covering the most important parts with blatant hatred.

Wait: What if the whole "Chruch takes over the World" thing was a fabrication of Odiums? What if it was a coverup for something bigger? Anybody else considered this?

[Elwynn]

How do people feel about the Heralds/how are they portrayed?

People really don't seem to like them

People love the Heralds. Somewhere out west, can't remember where offhand, they worship Jezrien instead of the Almighty. Remember, everyone on Roshar thinks the Heralds helped them win the last desolation, chasing the Voidbringers off Roshar and taking the war to the Tranquiline Halls. Alethi men fight to win a place by the Heralds side when they die.

How do people view the church after the hierocracy?

I detect a hint of dislike for what happened, and because of it the churches get very little power

Oddly enough, it seems everyone in the Vorin nations are still devout. Though the church itself has been stripped bare. No power allowed, only allowed to serve their highprince. But still seem to manipulate behind the scenes a la the ardent Dalinar spoke to about insulting the visiting dignitary.

[name_here]

Vorinism apparently got a major doctrinal re-write in the aftermath of the Hierocracy. Ardents command a great deal of respect, but are strictly subservient to their Highprinces and possibly other Brightlords in both temporal and spiritual matters. The Ardent Adolin talks to about Dalinar's vision more-or-less says that he is forbidden from saying the visions are false because Dalinar has been set above him by the Almighty. Their position is probably most closely analogus to either Byzantine priests, who were religiously subordinate to the emperor, or Roman slaves who worked as tutors.

[Observer]

Alright, finally bought WoK, my info should be a lot more accurate from now on.

What if visions are considered heresy because Odium fears Cultivation or some other shard intervening and presenting the future to the right person?

[Elwynn]

What if visions are considered heresy because Odium fears Cultivation or some other shard intervening and presenting the future to the right person?

Visions are heresy, at least to the Vorin nations, because of the Sunmaker discovering there were no visions when the Ardents used that claim in the Hierocracy, trying to take over everything. (Another Byzantine reference!)

Still remains to be seen whether the Sunmaker made up that claim or not, considering Dalinar is receiving visions. Would be interesting if Honor was warning them that long ago.

[Observer]

Visions are heresy, at least to the Vorin nations, because of the Sunmaker discovering there were no visions when the Ardents used that claim in the Hierocracy, trying to take over everything. (Another Byzantine reference!)

Still remains to be seen whether the Sunmaker made up that claim or not, considering Dalinar is receiving visions. Would be interesting if Honor was warning them that long ago.

Yes, I know why they're considered heresy. I'm just wondering if their history is true. What if Sunmaker was influenced by Odium or some other force, and either lied about the lack of visions or was unable to find them due to either hiddenness or Odium messing with things. Once visions became evil, any form of prophesy (like the one Preservation sent the Terris people) sent to help the people on Roshar would instantly lose most of its effectiveness. We don't know if Cultivation is dead or not, so this could be an attempt to restrict her ability to affect the world.

[mistify]

I also think the parshmen are not voidbringers. They have too much honor. Also, the Parshendi shardbearer didn't kill Kholin when he had the chance and told him that he was waiting for Kholin. Maybe the point of the Parshendi is to remind the Alethi what honor is?

And though Taravangian seems to be on the side of the angels, he looks evil to me. Maybe he is a voidbringer, and can change shape? Maybe voidbringers are dishonorable lighteyes or controlled by them?

It seems unlikely that the parshmen are voidbringers for another reason as well. Shen watched Kaladin and bridge four desecrate everything he held dear. But he didn't become a monster.

Also, I agree with others here that Sanderson wouldn't have revealed this so soon if it had been right

I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

[Observer]

Alright, here's a wierd idea. Do we know what happened to the KR? I had this crazy dream that they turned into Parshendi, and figured I'd post it.

I still wonder if Odium's messed with history. The thing about visions can't be just a passing detail. It's going to pop up later in full force.

[name_here]

I figured it was a corruption of Honor telling people that seeing the future was really, really hard and anyone other than a Shard who claimed to be doing it was lying. Though an alternate possibility is that Voidbinding and only Voidbinding allows Roshar natives to get a vaguely Atium-like effect and it's not available in Surgebinding.

I doubt that Jasnah is completely wrong. Her logic seems pretty solid on the connection, and if Odium has been editing history then the fragments of ancient texts that Jasnah has been looking into are the most likely to have been overlooked. Plus, Ruin's live editing would be less effective on Roshar. On Scadrial, if a Keeper noticed something in the text clashed with their memory, they'd check their metalminds, which had also been edited, and conclude they'd been mistaken. On Roshar, people would not have metalminds and thus be more likely to realize something was up.

I am also pretty confident that she's missing an awful lot, but expect she's right on the Parshmen being Voidbringers. What she's most likely missing is that Voidbringers come in more than one type. Also, as mentioned, the Parshendi seem too honorable to be creatures of Odium, so she's probably wrong on Parshendi being activated Voidbringers.