Most Evil Cosmere Villian

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 3/12/2023 at 8:51 PM, The Stick said:

I am curious to see who everybody believes is the most evil villain. Try to keep in mind that some like Marsh were forced to do evil when you make your rankings. Some of my top are:

Moash

That Honorspren who tries to deny Maya and convict Adolin.

Hoid (It depends on the day if he is villainous

Nale (Edgedancer make me question this though)

Lezian

Bluefingers

Denth and his group

Treledees to an extent

Straff is despicable 

Aesudan, although Yelig-Nar's involvement may cloud this.

Same for Amaram

Anybody who denies Lift food

Anyone who denies Stick whatever it's godly form desires.

This is super controversial, but I have no issue with Taravangian.

 

An interesting question.

Now, my answers are definitely going to be a bit biased, since I'm a human being who has opinions and whatnot, but I'll share what who I think are the worst villains. 

1. Straff Venture: The man is abusive towards women, abusive towards his son(s), murders those he dislikes on a whim, and is an egotistical bully who only seeks power and actively enjoys inflicting pain on others.

2. Sadeas: Similar to Straff, he seems mostly to only seek more power while trampling over the bodies of those he forces to do his bidding. He doesn't seem to take as much pleasure in causing pain (unless you count battle-lust... which I suppose you could, actually) as Straff though, so I don't think he's quite as bad. Barely.

3. Rashek: He was a hateful, petty man who imposed his own will on the world of Scadrial, and even hunted down murdered his own uncle when he refused to accept Rashek's gift of becoming a Kandra. Not to mention that he caused a millennium of anguish for the Skaa, created the Terris breeding program, created and used Koloss against those who defied him (made mostly of innocents), and built/enforced laws and societal norms that hurt everyone in the Final Empire.

Now, I don't think that he was entirely evil, as he did try to save Scadrial and was corrupted by Ruin over centuries of time (he wasn't "all together in the head", so to speak, so I don't think that he's the most evil of Cosmere villians. But he was pretty bad), and I don't think that being mentally unhinged or damaged makes someone evil, even if their actions reflect some bad things. Buuuuut he was in control of himself at least a little (harder to judge this area), so he was still pretty bad, I think.

4. Taravangian: So far, we've seen him to some terrible things; unleashing the Assassin in White on Roshar, killing innocents to get visions of the future, and betraying other kingdoms for his own ends.

Similar to the Lord Ruler though, I don't think that he is entirely a bad person. He has a good(ish) reason to do what he does; he wants to save his people. Now, that does not excuse him for his acts, and I might even consider him to be worse that Rashek in some ways (he has more control over himself and his actions), but at least he doesn't do evil for the mere pleasure of it like Straff, so I don't consider him to be as bad (I think; I'm kind of back and forth on this one).

5. Amaram: He betrayed those who saved him for his own benefit, killing Kaladin's remaining squad members and sending Kaladin himself into enslavement. He also worked to bring about the Desolations which caused terrible calamities to happen to all of Roshar.

I don't really know how much I blame him for turning against Dalinar in the Battle of Theylena Field (think I butchered the spelling), as he was busy being possessed by a Voidspren, and then he ate Yelig'nar which also had a serious influence on his mind, I would think. I'm not in the business of calling someone evil if they are being strongly manipulated by or outright controlled by an external force or if their mind isn't sound at the time (hence Rashek not being considered worse in my opinion).

Also, if I'm being honest, I kind of wished that Amaram was redeemed. I saw a part of myself in him with his devotion to his religion, and it hurt to see him become worse at the end of OB (it really felt out of the blue, and felt really poorly done in my opinion) and switch to Odium's side, even if he was currently being possessed by a Voidspren.

I also want to point out that I don't think that his devotion to Vornism itself was bad; adhering to a religion most often is a good thing, he just decided to try and bring it back to its former glory by bringing back the Desolations, which was evil as he knowingly brought death and pain to Roshar in the process.

That being said, I understand that he wasn't really a good man (I just wish he became one in the end), and his devotion to Vornism did cause him to seek the return of the Desolations, which was ultimately selfish and shortsighted, even if his religion itself wasn't evil. 

He's probably the only villain who exists who I ultimately wish wasn't a villain, or who at least was redeemed in the end. But I understand that this is due to my own bias, so please feel free to disagree with me in this matter.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Argenti he/him]

Moash isn't particularly evil, he's just mean and meant to inspire your odium.

[Duxredux he/him]

There have been some well-stated entries for this thread. He may not act on the scale that others do, but Bloody Tan and his museum is seriously disturbing to me. I can find at least some positive side effect for the actions on many on this list, but Bloody Tan simply grotesquely killed as an art form, where revulsion, horror, and pain were his paints.

There's probably a whole philosophical debate in that, if the most good or most evil person is dependent solely on their intent or if the opportunities they had play into it. 

Rayse may be on this list, not as Odium, but as the man who wanted and chose to be Odium. 98% sure he won't get a redemption arc or a "he was actually a nice man like Ati and just got corrupted by the Shard" twist.

Also, clearly the most evil people are whomever Nightblood takes out. Nightblood says they're evil, so it's canon.

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Edit: Addional thought, if you give the powers of creation to each candidate, what do you get? Do the circumstances they are under influence how evil they are?

Straff Venture you get a tyrant, likely worse than TLR. Probably would try to be a tyrant in other circumstances 

Sadeas you probably get Elhokar as tyrant with Sadeas as the mustache twirling vizier running the show.

Hoid, no idea yet, but we'll probably find out eventually his plan. 

Moash, I'm not sure what he would do at the different phases of his life (bridgeman, Shardbearer, Vyre). There's an element of vengeance with no room for change or mercy, where if Moash has been harmed, he may not talk it out, he'll just try to kill you. Somewhat like if Nale was motivated by vengeance and not legal justice and listened to Odium and the Fused and not Ishar (which is worse, no idea yet because Ishar is a great big question mark).

Taravangian is perhaps the most interesting case of whether or not a person is evil is dependent on their circumstances. It seems likely that if his planet wasn't threatened by Odium he would not have done what he did. What he will do now that he is a Shard remains to be seen. 

Rayse in many ways is who he chose to be.

Bloody Tan? He would transform the world into a horror movie/book, possibly in an And Then There Were None style but a horror genre, not mystery/thriller.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Duxredux
Added thought

[Trusk'our he/him]

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Also, clearly the most evil people are whomever Nightblood takes out. Nightblood says they're evil, so it's canon.

I don't think that Nightblood's approval is necessarily something that should be trusted too much. It doesn't really understand what evil is, so it relies on its wielder to determine that (who is, of course, going to have something of a biased view).

Quote

Warbreaker Annotations (Dec. 22, 2010)

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Five

Vivenna Awakes, Bound by Vasher

This chapter—with what happens in the latter part of it—is the most dangerous in the book. Dangerous to me as an author, I mean. I love good plot twists, but I worry about leaving them without proper foreshadowing. I've never done something as drastic as I have in this book, having a group of sympathetic characters turn out to be working for the wrong side. I hope it succeeds, but I know that if it doesn't, readers will be very mad. Nothing is sloppier than a book with unearned changes in character motivation.

But we're not there quite yet. Before that we have the first real interaction between Vivenna and Vasher. He gives her what he likes to think of as the Nightblood test. One nice thing about having a sword that "cannot tempt the hearts of those who are pure" is that when someone like Vivenna touches it, she gets sick. I didn't want Nightblood to come across as a "one ring" knockoff. He doesn't turn people's hearts or corrupt them. However, in order to be able to do his job and fulfill his Command, he needs the ability to determine who is good and who is evil.

This, of course, isn't an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don't think it's a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided was evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing. Someone who wouldn't want the sword for those reasons was determined to be good. If they touch the weapon, they feel sick. If others touch the weapon, their desire to kill and destroy with it is enhanced greatly.

Nightblood himself, unfortunately, doesn't quite understand what good and evil are. (This is mentioned later in the text.) However, he knows that his master can determine who is good and who is evil—using the sword's power to make people sick, or through other means. So, he pretty much just lets whoever is holding him decide what is evil. And if the one holding the sword determines—deep within their heart—that they are evil themselves, then they will end up killing themselves with the sword.

Vivenna passes the test, which surprises Vasher. He thought that she'd be the type who would use Nightblood to kill and destroy. (He doesn't have a high opinion of her, obviously. Of course, that's partially because he's let his temper dictate what he thinks.)

It's actually funny, this is why Szeth didn't feel anything, good or bad, when he picked up Nightblood for the first time; Szeth just wants to do as he's told, but Nightblood also wants to do as it's told, so they are kind of a null set (in a good way- no crazy bloodlust or sickness).

Quote

Miscellaneous 2022 (Nov. 28, 2022)

Travis Gafford

End of [Words of Radiance], Szeth meets Nightblood. Nightblood normally makes people feel very sick as a test. He does not have this. And I'm curious if there's a reason for that other than you didn't want to end your book with Szeth puking in a corner.

Brandon Sanderson

What happens when you take Nightblood is based entirely on what your desire on how to use Nightblood is. If your intent does not align with Nightblood's created Intent, which is kind of a deep, Cosmere sort of thing. But, basically, if you want Nightblood because you can then destroy all of your enemies, you're not gonna match to that Intent. If your desire to use Nightblood is either: "I don't even want to use Nightblood," you're actually gonna be fine; or if your desire to Nightblood is matching what Nightblood's view is... And Szeth is, like, the perfect person, because Szeth only wants to do what he's told, and Nightblood kind of only wants to do what he's told. So there's, like, a perfect alignment. They're both messed up in the same way, and they both view the world in the same way, and it's hard to find a more perfect alignment than those two. And so, because of that, there was just no reaction. And that should be something that I wanted people to pick up on.

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Duxredux he/him]

@Trusk'our Drat, my use of italics didn't indicate well enough that I was joking about Nightblood's sense of evil. You're right of course. Granted if I hadn't picked up that Nightblood doesn't know beans about his Command, I probably shouldn't be given any credibility on this topic.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Duxredux

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 minute ago, Duxredux said:

@Trusk'our Drat, my use of italics didn't indicate well enough that I was joking about Nightblood's sense of evil. Granted if I hadn't picked up that Nightblood doesn't know beans about his Command, I probably shouldn't be given any credibility on this topic.

Ah. My apologies.

For someone who uses sarcasm in plentitude, I do have a rather difficult time picking it out when someone else makes use of it 

[Little_Dagger she/her]

Depends on the definition of evil. In-world - yes, all those mentioned above deserve that descriptor. But, in my life, Kaladin caused me more pain and tears than all of them together, so... 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Yuliya said:

Depends on the definition of evil. In-world - yes, all those mentioned above deserve that descriptor. But, in my life, Kaladin caused me more pain and tears than all of them together, so... 

How so?

[Little_Dagger she/her]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

How so?

I felt sorry and worried for him the most

[Trusk'our he/him]

Just now, Yuliya said:

I felt sorry and worried for him the most

Ah. Yeah, same here.

[Duxredux he/him]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:33 AM, Yuliya said:

Depends on the definition of evil. In-world - yes, all those mentioned above deserve that descriptor. But, in my life, Kaladin caused me more pain and tears than all of them together, so... 

 

On 4/12/2023 at 0:56 PM, Yuliya said:

I felt sorry and worried for him the most

I'm 98% sure this is a joke, but... by this definition in Kaladin's life this would rank Tien and Bridge 4 up by Sadeas and Roshone in terms of evil which just seems wrong. I would say that joy and happiness are not the absence of pain, worry, or tears, nor are they mutually exclusive. Ask any mother about childbirth and parenting.

[Little_Dagger she/her]

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

 

I'm 98% sure this is a joke, but... by this definition in Kaladin's life this would rank Tien and Bridge 4 up by Sadeas and Roshone in terms of evil which just seems wrong. I would say that joy and happiness are not the absence of pain, worry, or tears, nor are they mutually exclusive. Ask any mother about childbirth and parenting.

You can be 100% sure it was a joke. You are right, of course.