Mistchemist16 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 We know Slivers can choose to stay Cognitive Shadows for however long they want instead of going to the Beyond. But would this apply to Vin and Ati after they collided Shards? Before Secret History, I thought that their minds had automatically gone to the Beyond after the collision. But Secret History shows this didn’t happen and based on what we know of Slivers, they should retain their powers post collision This also creates another question. Let’s say no one besides Vin and Ati were around Preservation and Ruin post collision. Could they just run over to their Shards and get back in the driver’s seat? If they did, would they be able to replace their missing bodies? Would they be even weaker than other Shards by being bodiless Vessels? And for that matter, if two Shards are of perfectly equal power, can a Vessel with more mass or whatever equivalent in spirt and mind gain an advantage over the other? Kinda like how two people burning pewter cancel out? I’d think that even if you could convert mass, Shards require more to shift their relative power levels. Like having two lakes and saying that adding a cup of water to one makes it bigger.
alder24 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said: We know Slivers can choose to stay Cognitive Shadows for however long they want instead of going to the Beyond. But would this apply to Vin and Ati after they collided Shards? Yes, they held powers of Shard, their mind and soul expanded, they were Slivers, Vin was a Sliver even before, when she Ascended in WoA. They could stay. 4 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said: This also creates another question. Let’s say no one besides Vin and Ati were around Preservation and Ruin post collision. Could they just run over to their Shards and get back in the driver’s seat? If they did, would they be able to replace their missing bodies? Would they be even weaker than other Shards by being bodiless Vessels? They were dead. They were separated from their bodies, That means weaker control over a Shard, like Kelsier had. It's likely they could grab it, but they would be worse than they've been previously. Their link to Physical Realm was removed, and as a Shard they don't really have a physical body, so they couldn't just make a new one and attach themself to it. At best they would be like Kelsier, if the Shard would accept them at all. 5 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said: And for that matter, if two Shards are of perfectly equal power, can a Vessel with more mass or whatever equivalent in spirt and mind gain an advantage over the other? It's different. Their minds don't add to the power of a Shard. But a "greater", more expanded mind, can reach more power at once. Shards have nearly infinite power, but Vessel's mind can comprehend infinite power, they are limited to what they can access. So a being with greater mind, can access more power at once than someone with lesser mind - making him "technically" stronger. But they are almost all humans, so their minds are equal. Spoiler Questioner For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed? Brandon Sanderson The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that. Questioner What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity... Brandon Sanderson So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler Overlord Jebus Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)
Mistchemist16 Posted March 8, 2023 Author Posted March 8, 2023 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, they held powers of Shard, their mind and soul expanded, they were Slivers, Vin was a Sliver even before, when she Ascended in WoA. They could stay. Is there evidence or WoB for that? I thought you had to actually use the Well’s power like Rashek did: simply taking it and surrendering it wouldn’t be enough. And all of the know Preservation slivers (Leras, Rashek, Kelsier, Vin), Rashek is the only one who didn’t hold Preservation in any way besides the Well (not counting lerasium) 2 hours ago, alder24 said: It's different. Their minds don't add to the power of a Shard. But a "greater", more expanded mind, can reach more power at once. Shards have nearly infinite power, but Vessel's mind can comprehend infinite power, they are limited to what they can access. So a being with greater mind, can access more power at once than someone with lesser mind - making him "technically" stronger. But they are almost all humans, so their minds are equal. Reveal hidden contents Questioner For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed? Brandon Sanderson The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that. Questioner What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity... Brandon Sanderson So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Reveal hidden contents Overlord Jebus Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Interesting. That also implies that if you want to get the most power from your Shard is to load up on Blessings of Presence to get more power. Spoiler We also don’t know if dragons can theoretically become much better than a human at using Shards. Cultivation doesn’t seem overwhelmingly strong next to her fellow Rosharan Shards ncmagic97 Dragons are often depicted as much more intelligent and/or powerful than humans. Are dragons in the Cosmere better equipped to handle the power or psychological influence of becoming the Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson I would say that... RAFO. That's not where I thought you were going to go with that, so I was planning to answer a different question. The one that you asked I will say RAFO to. Adam Horne Do you want to tell the chat what question you thought they were going to ask? Brandon Sanderson They are better suited toward long lifespans, which makes them... But I would not say that a dragon in the Cosmere is born more wise than a human. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)
alder24 Posted March 9, 2023 Posted March 9, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said: Is there evidence or WoB for that? I thought you had to actually use the Well’s power like Rashek did: simply taking it and surrendering it wouldn’t be enough. And all of the know Preservation slivers (Leras, Rashek, Kelsier, Vin), Rashek is the only one who didn’t hold Preservation in any way besides the Well (not counting lerasium) She didn't merely surrender the power, she took it all into her, drawing it like Mists in HoA, and held all that power before giving it away. That expanded her mind and soul, leaving her permanently as a Sliver. Spoiler Zach Also, would the Elantrians and the Lerasium-mistings be considered Slivers? Or is just the Lord Ruler and Vin Slivers (Via the Well)? Or do you need more power to be considered a Sliver? Brandon Sanderson Elantrians are not slivers. Mistborn trilogy spoiler warnings follow! The Lord Ruler was indeed a Sliver. So was Vin. For the rest, I would say probably not. What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium. Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010) Rashek didn't use Lerasium to became a Mistborn, he used power of the Well. Spoiler Leinton (paraphrased) Did Rashek use the Well or a bead of lerasium to become a Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) He didn't know at first, I told him there were interviews with him saying both, and he eventually answered with "I'm canonizing it as he used the Well". Firefight San Diego signing (Jan. 20, 2015) 11 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said: Interesting. That also implies that if you want to get the most power from your Shard is to load up on Blessings of Presence to get more power. That wouldn't work, just like Vin when she was Ascending, she had to get rid of her spikes first to be able to Ascend at all, in both cases. Investiture repulse investiture. Spikes are only a temporary change, and require blood to work, a Vessel doesn't have a body, no blood, no spikes, no blessings. As a Vessel you are more like a spren, and spren can't be spiked and given a power. You would have to be a non-human species, that has much greater cognitive capabilities than humans, like a dragon or sleepless probably, but even then the difference would be just just slight, and wouldn't give you that great advantage you are thinking about. There is just too much power in a Shard, and there isn't any mind that is infinite. WoBs on which I based this: SA spoilers. Spoiler Mr. Suit Can spren - like Syl - be pierced by hemalurgic spike? Will it give some effect? Brandon Sanderson Yes. A spren can be pierced by Invested metal… Oversleep Could it be spiked? Brandon Sanderson Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well. [edited out] Kraków signing (March 21, 2017) Spoiler Djarskublar (paraphrased) So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you. Djarskublar (paraphrased) So say you go to Roshar and you give somebody a Hemalurgic spike for some Allomantic power, don't care what, and you use it to become a savant. Does that qualify them as 'broken' enough to become a Radiant? As long as they are also following the Ideals to attract a spren. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) So becoming a Radiant is a spectrum of terminologies. It... probably, but you would have to find a Radiant who would, or a spren who would be willing to touch that, okay? It's going to drive them back. Djarskublar (paraphrased) So would it also affect your probability of becoming an Elantrian? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yeah it would affect your ability to become anything else, yes. Djarskublar (paraphrased) Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb. Djarskublar (paraphrased) So it's easier for Investiture to get in. Does it make it easier for other Investitures to get in? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It would make it... yes. It's going to drive spren away. So what it's really going to make easier for, there, is spren and Investiture that doesn't care. Djarskublar (paraphrased) Okay, so Investiture doesn't care but spren do. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Investiture might care depending on if it's part of a Shard-- if it has intent and things like this. Djarskublar (paraphrased) So it might let Stormlight in easier than a Breath, type thing. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) I'm saying it might let Odium in easier than Syl. Because Syl would care, and Odium would not care. Djarskublar (paraphrased) Okay cool. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Alright, so it could be a really bad thing, is what I'm trying to say to you. Djarskublar (paraphrased) Yeah that's cool. I just want to know more about gold too. Gold Allomancy too. Because Miles was doing some funky stuff. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Miles was doing some funky stuff. Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016) Edit: 11 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said: Reveal hidden contents We also don’t know if dragons can theoretically become much better than a human at using Shards. Cultivation doesn’t seem overwhelmingly strong next to her fellow Rosharan Shards ncmagic97 Dragons are often depicted as much more intelligent and/or powerful than humans. Are dragons in the Cosmere better equipped to handle the power or psychological influence of becoming the Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson I would say that... RAFO. That's not where I thought you were going to go with that, so I was planning to answer a different question. The one that you asked I will say RAFO to. Adam Horne Do you want to tell the chat what question you thought they were going to ask? Brandon Sanderson They are better suited toward long lifespans, which makes them... But I would not say that a dragon in the Cosmere is born more wise than a human. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) SA/Warbreaker spoilers: Spoiler So we don't know if dragons are wiser than humans, and therefore capable of reaching more power than a human as a Vessel. The question I think Brandon was thinking about, is if dragons are better suited to be Cognitive Shadows without suffering mental issues like all human/Singers CS. It's likely that also Endowment's Vessel is also non-human: Spoiler Trae Cooper In the past we deeply discussed the mechanism with which Breaths are decided to be doled out or endowed on Nalthis. And you said that there is an intellect that is doling them out, but that their intentions or that their goals are difficult to predict or nonstandard. And my question is: are they nonstandard because the base Vessel behind them does not have, at its core, a standard human psychology? Brandon Sanderson RAFO! Good question. Excellent question. RAFO, I like the way you're theorizing. I have said before, that there are multiple nonhuman Vessels in the Cosmere. So, your theorizing perhaps is going to bear fruit. Did someone say "chulls"? No, it's not the chulls. There are no chulls that are holding Shards in the Cosmere. Footnote: The questioner is referring to this WoB. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) Edited March 9, 2023 by alder24
cometaryorbit Posted March 9, 2023 Posted March 9, 2023 I'm not sure if Vin could just have picked up Preservation again, if Sazed hadn't been there. Kelsier cheated with the Ire orb; do we know a cognitive shadow could take up a Shard without help? Also, that seems to make killing a Shard a bit pointless. I do wonder if usually there's no Shadow left behind (because whoever/whatever killed the Shard goes on to destroy the Shadow too) and Vin/Ati only had that choice to stay because they both died simultaneously so neither could go on to destroy the other's Shadow. I also wonder what makes the desire to stay so rare (Leras in SH talks about it like Kelsier's desire to stay is super unnatural and weird). Maybe most perceive the "pull of the Beyond" or "stretching" effect as something desirable/pleasant? Elend does smile at 'something Beyond'...
alder24 Posted March 9, 2023 Posted March 9, 2023 21 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: I'm not sure if Vin could just have picked up Preservation again, if Sazed hadn't been there. Kelsier cheated with the Ire orb; do we know a cognitive shadow could take up a Shard without help? I'm not sure if Ire orb would be necessary, it provides connection. But because sprens can Ascend, I guess Vin after death could as well. But this doesn't mean help isn't needed. Spoiler /u/brnbrn1996 (paraphrased) Is it possible for a sentient bit of Investiture to pick up a Shard? Like a spren or Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It would be possible yes, well, for a spren or a seon for example, it would. Nightblood could theoretically but it would be difficult for various reasons. /u/brnbrn1996 (paraphrased) Right, because he has no hands. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) *graciously chuckles at my dumb joke* /u/brnbrn1996 (paraphrased) Would they have to be embodied to be able to actually use it effectively, or would they have the same limitations as Kelsier did when he was a cognitive shadow ? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They would have the same limitations yes, but there are ways around that. /u/brnbrn1996 (paraphrased) Right, like Ishar is working on. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Right. Miscellaneous 2022 (Nov. 11, 2022) 23 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Also, that seems to make killing a Shard a bit pointless. I do wonder if usually there's no Shadow left behind (because whoever/whatever killed the Shard goes on to destroy the Shadow too) and Vin/Ati only had that choice to stay because they both died simultaneously so neither could go on to destroy the other's Shadow. In most cases Shards were also Splintered so they couldn't be picked up again. What happened to the Vessel's CS during that time is unknown. 27 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: I also wonder what makes the desire to stay so rare (Leras in SH talks about it like Kelsier's desire to stay is super unnatural and weird). Maybe most perceive the "pull of the Beyond" or "stretching" effect as something desirable/pleasant? Elend does smile at 'something Beyond'... I think that as well. Leras also said many people try to run, so I guess some want to stay, but aren't CS so they can't.
cometaryorbit Posted March 9, 2023 Posted March 9, 2023 1 minute ago, alder24 said: In most cases Shards were also Splintered so they couldn't be picked up again. What happened to the Vessel's CS during that time is unknown. Well, it seems like from SH that the Shard is vulnerable to Splintering when its not held - Leras says Ruin was trying to Splinter Preservation, before Kelsier uses the orb to grab it, but even Kelsier's poorly-compatible role as Vessel is enough to prevent that. So I was thinking that getting rid of the CS might be part of Splintering the Shard. (Or, the side effects of things that could kill a Shard might just obliterate the CS. Vin and Ati were so precisely balanced that maybe there just wasn't "leftover" power to do that.) I tend to think (general cosmere and RoW spoilers) that Spoiler In the non-Scadrial cases we know about, the Cognitive Shadow either got destroyed anyway (Nightblood presumably ate Rayse's completely; Odium would probably have destroyed the CS of Aona, Skai, and Uli Da - by Tanavast's time he was already imprisoned, so probably couldn't) or got transformed (Tanavast's CS merged with the Stormfather and thus became a spren). I'm not sure if Leras left a CS which chose to pass Beyond or if his mind-sacrifice + Ruin damage meant he didn't get the normal chance for a Sliver to stay at all (the normal Shard-expanded mind might have been mostly gone).
alder24 Posted March 9, 2023 Posted March 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Well, it seems like from SH that the Shard is vulnerable to Splintering when its not held - Leras says Ruin was trying to Splinter Preservation, before Kelsier uses the orb to grab it, but even Kelsier's poorly-compatible role as Vessel is enough to prevent that. So I was thinking that getting rid of the CS might be part of Splintering the Shard. (Or, the side effects of things that could kill a Shard might just obliterate the CS. Vin and Ati were so precisely balanced that maybe there just wasn't "leftover" power to do that.) At that point Leras was still holding Preservation. He could talk to Kelsier, because he still was Preservation. 6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: I'm not sure if Leras left a CS which chose to pass Beyond or if his mind-sacrifice + Ruin damage meant he didn't get the normal chance for a Sliver to stay at all (the normal Shard-expanded mind might have been mostly gone). I think he still got that chance, and because Kel Ascend to Preservation, it might spear him from being destroyed by Ruin, if he could do it. But judging by his view on staying in CR, he most likely just went immediately to the Beyond.
cometaryorbit Posted March 9, 2023 Posted March 9, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: At that point Leras was still holding Preservation. He could talk to Kelsier, because he still was Preservation. Yeah, but that's his moment of death. It would have been Splintered very soon if Kelsier hadn't used the orb.
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