[TLM] Democratizing powers on Scadrial

[ScadrianTank he/him]

Reposting my post here from reddit, just cause.

I write these words in steel this post because I've been thinking about it more than is probably healthy and needed to put it up somewhere.

The problem is that Allomancy and Feruchemy are rare and genetically derived, which limits Scadrial's growth and security. And, I'm growing increasingly certain that the best way to achieve Kel's goal of democratizing access to powers is with this new way of performing Hemalurgy the Set discovered.

What we actually see and know for certain is that the Set made Hemalurgic spikes through a non-lethal, accumulative way that briefly granted the bearer powers. They did so by spiking the extra bit of Preservation from people's souls and, somehow, coding(???) the spike with a power. Shai then speculated that since they can charge spikes with raw Preservation from souls, it should be possible to create them with raw Investiture, pointing towards the jar of purified Dor while saying so.

From here, we can speculate that the following might be possible:

1. Creating Kandra Blessings through the same method the Set used.

2. Potentially creating Kandra Blessings entirely from scratch through the method Shai theorized.

3. Recharging decayed spikes with raw (and likely purified) Investiture to maintain the strength of the power they provide.

4. Potentially overcharging Hemalurgic spikes to grant a stronger power than what it stole.

5. A partially charged spike might still be used to grant a weaker power. The Set seemingly used only the spikes charged to 100%* but I don't see any compelling reasons why it would be a requirement.

The problem with the existing method is that it's yet to successfully grant a power and Shai was just speculating. But Realmatically we have several issues:

1. Identity contamination. As mentioned by Marsh earlier in the book, this might be a reason why the method fails — the power granted is keyed to a weird Identity mash that a bearer has trouble accessing.

2. Fundamentally, Hemalurgy is about taking something away. While the end-negative/-positive classification became less useful as time passed, I have trouble believing that it can be hacked to an extent that the main Intent behind the magic is completely sidestepped.

3. According to Ars Arcanum, Hemalurgic decay no longer exists, making the recharging idea irrelevant. Note: it is unclear which of the two decays Khriss meant (spikes losing power over time when not in a body/a steak or spikes having a weaker power in a recipient than a donor).

4. While we know of a few man-made items that overshadow traditional Hemalurgy and Feruchemy in terms of Investiture density(Nalthian Blades and maybe Bands), we know nothing that suggests that the extra power would augment the Hemalurgic part of the spike instead of sitting beside it.

5. Creating spikes from scratch seems too simple. And judging how wrong many of us were about the Medallions, there might be more to it than it first appears.

What I propose is a mixed method of the perfected technique the Set used and Shai's theoretical one. You take the extra Investiture from a person's soul (what Kel called the "heart of Preservation") in a spike just like we saw in the book. Then, you charge the spike the rest of the way with raw/purified Investiture, code a Metallic Art into it, and give this spike to the same person - completely avoiding Identity contamination.

The good (if it works, obviously):

1. Completely democratizes Metallic Arts. Any non-Metalborn can become one. Society, politics, money, scarcity, and other similar problems will obviously prevent everyone from getting powers, but depending on how available the Investiture will become I'm confident that Scadrian society can get to a point where all educated professionals can get a spike after finishing education/graduating from uni/college/academy/etc.

2. Spikes accumulate after their bearers die and can be reused by future generations.

3. Bearing a spike shows one's devotion to Harmony, Death, and Sliver.

4. People finally get to choose what power they get.

5. Completely circumvents the genetic aspect of the Metallic Arts.

6. Can be fully automated with sufficient technological advancement. We don't have surgical robots this good, but we aren't far from making one. Especially, since the procedure isn't that complicated. Note: I assume here that Hemalurgy can be automated similarly to how Brandon said making Soulstamps can.

7. Will publicize Heamlurgy as an Invested Art, which will lead to a deeper understanding of souls in the cosmere.

The bad:

1. Still adds to social inequality through corruption, inheritance laws, and economic inequality.

2. Will publicize Heamlurgy as an Invested Art -> people will be killing one another to get their powers or steal their spikes. -> Mistborn serial killer

3. Gives Harmony/Discord a way to your soul.

4. Will popularize piercings.

Thoughts and ideas are welcome.

Edited February 22, 2023 by ScadrianTank

[therunner he/him]

I saw this your post on reddit! I knew this was familiar post title.
 

Just a few quick thoughts from my end (don't have time for more right now):
 

• I do think that there will be some obstacle even to using pure investiture to power spikes, as completely sidestepping fundamental limitation of Hemalurgy seems wrong.
  The best part of the magic systems are limitations, and doing away with them would take away from what makes Cosmere so interesting compared to other fantasy (IMHO)
• Hemalurgy always damages the soul, so I expect this would hold even for non-lethal one.
  • At best you are creating something similar to Drabs (permanently weakens immune system, more susceptible to depression, worse perception, shorter lifespan), at worst it is even worse.  Also note that Drabs apparently cannot Return, suggesting that person weakened in this way could lack something fundamental for creation of Cognitive Shadows.
  • And the recipient would also end up with damaged and mangled soul, repulsing e.g. spren (and possibly other spren-like beings) and possibly having other Cognitive and Spiritual effects.

 

[alder24]

I like this, this sounds great. And the idea of giving the spike back to the person who was spiked is a great one, as this would minimize damage done to him by spiking him. I can see it being done like this. And they could also figured out a way to give multiple powers by one spike (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221/#e7870), so they could limit hemalurgic control while still possessing many powers. And if they use purify Dor or unkeyed Stormlight for a fuel, they would all have the power of Rashek, which would be just awesome.

They could also avoid identity contamination by giving Donors F-aluminum medallions, or giving them spike that grants F-aluminum so they can store their identity first and get spiked to stole identityless investiture.

[ScadrianTank he/him]

52 minutes ago, therunner said:

At best you are creating something similar to Drabs (permanently weakens immune system, more susceptible to depression, worse perception, shorter lifespan), at worst it is even worse.  Also note that Drabs apparently cannot Return, suggesting that person weakened in this way could lack something fundamental for creation of Cognitive Shadows.

Very possible. I was about to write that extra Preservation is extra and unnecessary for a normal functioning soul, but Preservation explicitly gave it to grant humans cognition so yeah... Still, the extent of the damage should be adjustable in the procedure.

52 minutes ago, therunner said:

And the recipient would also end up with damaged and mangled soul, repulsing e.g. spren (and possibly other spren-like beings) and possibly having other Cognitive and Spiritual effects.

The modernized version of beatings to Snap Allomancers. Now with body horror!

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They could also avoid identity contamination by giving Donors F-aluminum medallions, or giving them spike that grants F-aluminum so they can store their identity first and get spiked to stole identityless investiture.

Also true. Forgot about it.

Edited February 22, 2023 by ScadrianTank

[HSuperLee]

I like where this theorizing is going. I find myself wondering, however, about the more advanced effects realmatics will have on using hemalurgy to turn people into metalborn. The immediate thought I have is that trying to contain huge amounts of Preservative Investiture within a Ruinous art might have complications. In other words, it might be easier to make ferrings than mistings, and creating mistborn might simply be impossible with only one spike. Even with Harmony being Harmony, the two powers are still repulsive to one another and there may be difficulties in trying to "supercharge" a spike with enough of Preservation's Investiture to create the most powerful metalborn. Yes, there's an argument that if you use purified Investiture (still not something I'm comfortable with existing, but that's an issue for another day) if might not qualify as Preservative enough to cause interference, but I'd argue that allomancy is a result of Connection to Preservation and Hemalurgy can only go so far in forging that Connection. I think your method, @ScadrianTank, would work well for granting feruchemical or "human" traits, but I think beyond that it will be complicated. Granted, and increase of ferrings and potentially even full feruchemists is nothing to scoff at. I think a feruchemist with a good understanding of the spiritual metals is going to be able to pull off a huge number of useful tricks. I just think that getting to what Kel described as "proper metalborn" is going to take a lot more R&D than what we the fans or modern Scadrians have done thus far.

[Frustration]

Spiking someone without killing them leaves them worse off that being a drab 

Spoiler

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e12097

 

 

 

[ScadrianTank he/him]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Spiking someone without killing them leaves them worse off that being a drab 

Very possible, but the Set's researcher's words left me with a different impression. Not sure how much stock I should put in the opinion of a scientist experimenting on people, especially about their well-being post "science". Even so, putting that spike back in the same person and maybe giving them a sip from a goldmind might do the trick. Maybe.

Edited February 23, 2023 by ScadrianTank

[HSuperLee]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Spiking someone without killing them leaves them worse off that being a drab 

  Reveal hidden contents

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e12097

 

 

 

Admittedly I'm making assumptions, but I thought that WoB referred to when a person has had a power or attribute stolen by a spike, rather than just the extra bit of Preservation. I do agree that the Set are likely downplaying the negative side-effects, but I think you might be overplaying them in this case, with the truth being somewhere between.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Spiking someone without killing them leaves them worse off that being a drab 

I agree with @HSuperLee. Then consider as well that what Set is extracting is some fraction of a power usually held in a spike providing Allomancy/Feruchemy/Power. It was even said, it's not full, and would require several people more. The effects are probably still severe, and donors are most likely still worse than Drabs, considering what makes Drabs Drabs, but what if you just gave that spike back, now supercharged with more investiture? You give the stolen piece of the soul back, and a little extra as well. This would probably patch the soul (not fully), and bring that person to the "normal" state from a less-than-drab state.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Very possible, but the Set's researcher's words left me with a different impression. Not sure how much stock I should put in the opinion of a scientist experimenting on people, especially about their well-being post "science". Even so, putting that spike back in the same person and maybe giving them a sip from a goldmine might do the trick. Maybe.

 

40 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

Admittedly I'm making assumptions, but I thought that WoB referred to when a person has had a power or attribute stolen by a spike, rather than just the extra bit of Preservation. I do agree that the Set are likely downplaying the negative side-effects, but I think you might be overplaying them in this case, with the truth being somewhere between.

 

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I agree with @HSuperLee. Then consider as well that what Set is extracting is some fraction of a power usually held in a spike providing Allomancy/Feruchemy/Power. It was even said, it's not full, and would require several people more. The effects are probably still severe, and donors are most likely still worse than Drabs, considering what makes Drabs Drabs, but what if you just gave that spike back, now supercharged with more investiture? You give the stolen piece of the soul back, and a little extra as well. This would probably patch the soul (not fully), and bring that person to the "normal" state from a less-than-drab state.

 

Drabs are people who only give away a bit of their native Investiture, in a willing and easy transfer, powered by Endowment, a careful surgical removal of you will.

People who survive spiking are tortured, and then have a piece of their soul violently ripped away in a process made to destroy.

Now I think that giving them back that piece in a spike would help. But any Hemalurgy wounds the soul.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Frustration

[Leuthie]

Brandon's quote is pretty clear on the matter and the comparison to drabs is apt.

Breaths are PART of the "spark" (Connection to life) of Endowment. A Nalthian without Breath still has some "spark" left but not complete, leaving them a drab. The removed Breath can be easily replaced by any other Breath as there is no Identity involved in the process. Breaths are "unkeyed". There is probably still a "keyed" component of the original "spark" left in the drab.

Removing the "spark" of Preservation from a Scadrian would leave them with even less than removing a Breath from a Nalthian. This could be due to the "spark" not having "keyed" and "unkeyed" components like Breath, requiring the entirety of the "spark" to be removed. And this isn't removing an arm that can be rebuilt based on the Cognitive view of oneself via the complete Spirit Web. This is removing a Connection from the Spirit Web. Gold can do nothing about this. Investiture used in any other way in the Physical or Cognitive Realms can't correct this. You're removing a piece of a person's soul.

I'm also assuming that the process removes the Identity from the "spark" being removed so it can be utilized by someone else. There is also always loss in any Hemalurgic process, so even if this spike were returned to the donor, they wouldn't be returned to normal.

I'm not sure the loss is one of Investiture. "Supercharging" seems too easy a solution to rebuild a broken soul. I can't imagine the essence of a soul being an Investiture quantity issue. Souls are probably built from Connection and Identity. The losses would be the strength of that Connection and the removal of the Identity. Strength of Connection should require more than just a burst of Investiture to rebuild. However, combining multiple weak Connections could result in a stronger Connection.

While the process the Set are using to create Preservation Connected "Breaths" probably works, there's no way it leaves the donors unhurt. The best I can estimate is they're replacing the removed "spark" with Breaths. We know that Vasher as moved to Roshar to avoid having to use Breaths to remain alive, so other types of Investiture can be used in lieu of the Breaths. The donor would feel similar, most outside observers would be fooled, but the Connection to Preservation would be gone and irretrievable. I guess it depends on what philosophy you follow whether or not this is leaving Scandrians damaged.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Leuthie

[ScadrianTank he/him]

36 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

This is removing a Connection from the Spirit Web. Gold can do nothing about this. Investiture used in any other way in the Physical or Cognitive Realms can't correct this. You're removing a piece of a person's soul.

43 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I'm not sure the loss is one of Investiture. "Supercharging" seems too easy a solution to rebuild a broken soul. I can't imagine the essence of a soul being an Investiture quantity issue. Souls are probably built from Connection and Identity. The losses would be the strength of that Connection and the removal of the Identity. Strength of Connection should require more than just a burst of Investiture to rebuild. However, combining multiple weak Connections could result in a stronger Connection.

Gold is Spiritual Healing. It functions the same way Stormlight healing does. And Stormlight healing can deal with Shardblade wounds, which damage the soul directly.

38 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

There is also always loss in any Hemalurgic process, so even if this spike were returned to the donor, they wouldn't be returned to normal.

They wouldn't be normal for a number of reasons, the first among which is that Hemalurgy always wounds the soul, even when done "the right way". And again, the loss may or may not be a thing in the present time

[Leuthie]

 

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

They wouldn't be normal for a number of reasons, the first among which is that Hemalurgy always wounds the soul, even when done "the right way". And again, the loss may or may not be a thing in the present time

Hemalurgy takes a portion of a Spirit Web and attaches it to a spike, then attaches that spike and it's associated Spirit Web portion to another individual. The portion of Spirit Web is damaged in the process and made lesser. There is probably also residual "wounding of the soul" due to collateral damage from the "force" of ripping a piece off of it or attaching a new piece to it. I'm not sure what "loss may or may not be a thing in the present time" means, but there's always loss in all Hemalurgy. There's talk of augmenting the results with other uses of Investiture, but that only mitigates the loss, it can't nullify it. And as these are mostly losses of Connection, not raw Investiture, I'm not sure of the efficacy of those solutions. I'm convinced they're like patching body damage in a car using putty. It looks good from the outside for a time, but it's never the same.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Leuthie

[ScadrianTank he/him]

9 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Spiritual Healing uses an intact Spirit Web as a "blueprint" to rebuild the Physical and Cognitive damage. It doesn't rebuild the Spirit Web. The reason an arm can be rebuilt is because the entity still sees itself as having an arm. The Spirit Web still has enough Connection to the arm that the arm can be rebuilt. Even a long lost arm like Lopen's can be rebuilt because he still sees himself with an arm.

No, it does rebuild the Spirit Web. It is quite literally what happens after a person heals a cut from a Shardblade. The soul is not the blueprint - it's the "perfected" version of a person in the Spiritual Realm.

Edited February 23, 2023 by ScadrianTank

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

And this isn't removing an arm that can be rebuilt based on the Cognitive view of oneself via the complete Spirit Web. This is removing a Connection from the Spirit Web. Gold can do nothing about this. Investiture used in any other way in the Physical or Cognitive Realms can't correct this. You're removing a piece of a person's soul.

Damage done by Hemalurgy to a soul can be healed with gold feruchemy even to the point of regaining stolen powers of Allomancy/Feruchemy - huge WoB:

Spoiler

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020)

Edit:

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Hemalurgy takes a portion of a Spirit Web and attaches it to a spike, then attaches that spike and it's associated Spirit Web portion to another individual. The portion of Spirit Web is damaged in the process and made lesser. There is probably also residual "wounding of the soul" due to collateral damage from the "force" of ripping a piece off of it or attaching a new piece to it. I'm not sure what "loss may or may not be a thing in the present time" means, but there's always loss in all Hemalurgy. There's talk of augmenting the results with other uses of Investiture, but that only mitigates the loss, it can't nullify it. And as these are mostly losses of Connection, not raw Investiture, I'm not sure of the efficacy of those solutions. I'm convinced they're like patching body damage in a car using putty. It looks good from the outside for a time, but it's never the same.

What I imagine would end up happening is 2 holes in a soul if a person was spiked and then received the same spike. First one in the place where the spike ripped off part of it. But that spike wouldn't be most likely placed in the same place, it would go in a different place in his body, and it would ripped another hole in his soul, this time to put hemalurgic charge in that place. The first hole, from which the spike was made, would still be unfilled. But then, the amount of soul's investiture would be similar (not quite as hemalurgic decay and net-negative factor so there would be always a loss), so giving him spike would reinvest his soul to the level of that just below of what he used to have. But both holes in his soul would remain unless healed. Adding to it the fact that this spike contains his soul, with his identity and his connections would certainly help mitigate negative effects of spiking him in the first place.

Edited February 23, 2023 by alder24