Upgrading and "Programming" Hemalurgic Spikes

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Elder said:

No, I’ll concede you that it is still Ruining. I’m just saying it Ruins more to kill someone in addition to that soul damage.  And, using to power in a way that satisfies its Intent less may yield lesser results.

What I'm saying is that every hemalurgic spiking is satisfying Ruin's intent, so it doesn't matter in this case. What does matter is the intent of people performing spiking, if they are spiking with the intent not to kill a donor (which would still satisfy Ruin's intent), it can make a difference.

Ruin himself even told HoA and MSH that he allowed Rashek, Vin and Kelsier to influence Scadrial as what they did still caused ruin and destruction. Even if it sometimes prolonged incoming destruction (Kel picking up Preservation) it still served him more in the end.

[Elder]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What I'm saying is that every hemalurgic spiking is satisfying Ruin's intent, so it doesn't matter in this case. What does matter is the intent of people performing spiking, if they are spiking with the intent not to kill a donor (which would still satisfy Ruin's intent), it can make a difference.

Ruin himself even told HoA and MSH that he allowed Rashek, Vin and Kelsier to influence Scadrial as what they did still caused ruin and destruction. Even if it sometimes prolonged incoming destruction (Kel picking up Preservation) it still served him more in the end.

If what matters is the intent of the people doing the spiking, then maybe the scientists intending to Preserve life is interfering.

Note:  at this point all Intention on Ruins part is purely subconscious, so playing the long game all all things leading to Ruin’s goals doesn’t really work.  If Harmony was conscious of it, he’d probably not support it since the Set was definitely not working towards his interests.

Though, if that’s the case, maybe it would/will work better under Discord.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Elder

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Elder said:

If what matters is the intent of the people doing the spiking, then maybe the scientists intending to Preserve life is interfering.

Kind of. While you preserving donor's life, you're still ruining his soul. And let's end it with this.

[Elder]

Fair enough.  In the meantime, may I suggest that Autonomy’s Deadline compromised the Set’s science, limiting their ability to get results.

At the risk of coming across as callused, the Set would have had better results had they focused on accomplishing one result at a time, or at least split the experiments toward  specific objectives:

1.  Creating permanent metalborn powers from non-metalborn sacrifices (but not trying to preserve life).

2.  Creating effective Hemalurgic Spikes without killing, but using metalborn donors.  

Basically, eliminate variables.  Trying to accomplish too much too quickly meant accepting too many variables to accomplish decent science.

Granted, I don’t know enough about what brought them to what we saw in TLM, maybe they had focused.  But it didn’t seem that way.

Both of these projects would be costly.  #1  Might be easier.  Aren’t some of the other Hemalurgic Creatures made from non-metalborn sacrificed?  #2 will cost fewer lives, but will still mess people up.  Still, probably better to start there.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Elder said:

Fair enough.  In the meantime, may I suggest that Autonomy’s Deadline compromised the Set’s science, limiting their ability to get results.

At the risk of coming across as callused, the Set would have had better results had they focused on accomplishing one result at a time, or at least split the experiments toward  specific objectives:

1.  Creating permanent metalborn powers from non-metalborn sacrifices (but not trying to preserve life).

2.  Creating effective Hemalurgic Spikes without killing, but using metalborn donors.  

Basically, eliminate variables.  Trying to accomplish too much too quickly meant accepting too many variables to accomplish decent science.

Granted, I don’t know enough about what brought them to what we saw in TLM, maybe they had focused.  But it didn’t seem that way.

Both of these projects would be costly.  #1  Might be easier.  Aren’t some of the other Hemalurgic Creatures made from non-metalborn sacrificed?  #2 will cost fewer lives, but will still mess people up.  Still, probably better to start there.

I think Set's hemalurgic experiments were only a tool for them to allow them to take control over Scadrial more easily. Their main goal was to force Basin into submission, which would be achieved by a bomb, not hemalurgy. They used hemalurgy to satisfy their own greed for powers. That's why if they caught any metalborn, they would spike the power out of him, and give it to their members, without caring about science.

If Set didn't have any deadlines, and didn't have to focus on creating the bomb and destruction of Elendel, and could fully focus on Hemalurgy, then of course they would advance that art much further then we saw, however they already accomplished a lot, and even created 2 new hemalurgic constructs (Chimeras in SoS and the second "better" version of them in TLM, I think there were some differences between those two, the SoS used one spike, TLM used two spikes).

[Elder]

On 2/28/2023 at 6:29 AM, alder24 said:

I think Set's hemalurgic experiments were only a tool for them to allow them to take control over Scadrial more easily. Their main goal was to force Basin into submission, which would be achieved by a bomb, not hemalurgy. They used hemalurgy to satisfy their own greed for powers. That's why if they caught any metalborn, they would spike the power out of him, and give it to their members, without caring about science.

If Set didn't have any deadlines, and didn't have to focus on creating the bomb and destruction of Elendel, and could fully focus on Hemalurgy, then of course they would advance that art much further then we saw, however they already accomplished a lot, and even created 2 new hemalurgic constructs (Chimeras in SoS and the second "better" version of them in TLM, I think there were some differences between those two, the SoS used one spike, TLM used two spikes).

I imagine they developed Chimaeras before Autonomy imposed her deadline.

You’re probably right about them focusing on gaining powers over scientific inquiry, though transferring powers is hardly new and doesn’t require that much experimentation.  They’d been doing that since at least BoM, if not earlier.

That said, the way Entrone talked about the work, what he wanted was a way to create allomancers to prove their value to Autonomy, and to render Edwarn’s little community breeding project unnecessary.  I think if he could spike all those people and kill them, he would.

Actually I wonder how much of the Set’s science was a result of Pa’alm.  She was the  Lord Ruler’s personal pet.   She probably knew more about Hemalurgy than anyone on Scadrial, including Marsh with Spook’s book.