Upgrading and "Programming" Hemalurgic Spikes

[Trusk'our]

In The Lost Metal, the Set scientists don't know how to program the Investiture in the spikes they make from non-Allomancers. 

I bet that you could take a Hemalurgic spike that already had an Invested power, then split the spike into multiple smaller spikes. Even though each spike now has a fraction of the power it once provided, you could refill it by spiking some non-Allomancers, possible while using a specialized Command to have the new unprogrammed Investiture use the previously existing investiture as a model to follow.

OR, you skip the splitting step and just fuel up a Hemalurgic spike with extra non-Allomancers, and supercharge the power to Lord Ruler levels.

[alder24]

But the Set is taking investiture from non-allomancers, and even leaving them alive. Did I miss something? You mean like having a spike with allomancy in it and then "charging" it to even more powerful allomancy with raw investiture of regular people? These two are different types of investiture so I don't think they would just be mixed together. But who knows, Hemalurgy is mostly unknown to us and to people in-world.

You can't take a spike with charge and spike somebody else taking another charge - conflict of identities

Spoiler

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

But there is this WoB about making allomancy out of raw investiture, but without a clear answer:

Spoiler

Satsuoni

You said that every person on Scadrial has a bit of Preservation in them. It is possible, then, to accumulate enough Hemalurgic charge from killing normal people by, say, steel spike (at once, or in order), to make that spike grant Allomancy? Building on this, is it possible for the spike to accumulate charge while being imbedded in acceptor body, by killing people with the protruding end?

Brandon Sanderson

My, you're making the Scadrial magic systems sound a lot like the one from Nalthis.... Hm....

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

And these here are saying that you can pick up more than one power with a singular spiking:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

Kythis

When you spike somebody, say a full Mistborn, with a steel spike, it could end up with four different charges.  Does it get all four of them it just depends on where you place it?  

Brandon Sanderson

Where you place it it can get all four.  Spiking a full Mistborn wastes a lot of power and the way that it's known, I mean, it doesn't have to, but the way that it's known to do it right now.

Footnote: Clarified here
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

[Trusk'our]

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But the Set is taking investiture from non-allomancers, and even leaving them alive. Did I miss something? You mean like having a spike with allomancy in it and then "charging" it to even more powerful allomancy with raw investiture of regular people? These two are different types of investiture so I don't think they would just be mixed together. But who knows, Hemalurgy is mostly unknown to us and to people in-world.

You can't take a spike with charge and spike somebody else taking another charge - conflict of identities

  Hide contents

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Ah, perhaps one of the reasons the Set scientists couldn't get a stable power from their spikes made from non-Allomancers was because the multiple Identities held within would conflict and "flicker" almost; you might get an Invested power that would already have been programmed by one of the donor's Spiritwebs, but the Identities aren't working constructively. They break each other down, and stop functioning, similar to deconstructive interference.

Maybe you could overcome this by blanking the Identities of the donors by granting them a Hemalurgic spike containing that Feruchemical power, or via Unsealed Metalminds?

(Also yes, I meant that you could upgrade a Hemalurgic spike already containing a power from an Allomancer with regular people, or that you could take that same spike, split it into multiple functional if weaker spikes, and then re-power them with regular people.)

Edited February 6, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Trusk'our]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:32 PM, alder24 said:

You can't take a spike with charge and spike somebody else taking another charge - conflict of identities

You can't charge a Hemalurgic spike with another charge of Investiture so long as the Identities of the two charges are different.

This quote actually confirms the possibility of creating super charged Hemalurgic spikes! All you need to do is have the donor blank their Identity via Feruchemy while being spiked.

Quote

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

Thank you so much for finding this quote @alder24, I've been trying to prove this theory for a while!

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

This quote actually confirms the possibility of creating super charged Hemalurgic spikes! All you need to do is have the donor blank their Identity via Feruchemy while being spiked.

Yes this way it can be done. I think right now using medallions is the only option. Did Set did it this way?

9 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Thank you so much for finding this quote @alder24, I've been trying to prove this theory for a while!

No problem. This is an interesting idea.

[Trusk'our]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Yes this way it can be done. I think right now using medallions is the only option.

It should be possible to grant the power to Feruchemically blank Identity via a Hemalurgic spike. Even if you needed to worry about the original donor's Identity messing with the recipient's ability to fully blank their Identity, the donor could blank their own Identity while being spiked, making the Identity-blanking spike Identity-blanked itself.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think right now using medallions is the only option. Did Set did it this way?

I doubt it. They didn't have much access to Malwish medallion tech, but they did seem to know how to create Unkeyed Metalminds (not Unsealed though), as Mr. Suit spoke of being able to "make someone else weak, while we get the strength" or something like that. Plus, Kelesina Shores was working with the Set and had an Unkeyed Goldmind (and a very full one at that). So they almost certainly knew how to use Hemalurgy in order to blank Identity.

It does make me wonder though; evidence points to them knowing how to use Hemalurgy to gain access to Feruchemy in order to blank Identity. But they don't use this technique when trying to create power-granting spikes from non-Allomancers (as far as I can tell). Did the thought just not occur to them?

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

It should be possible to grant the power to Feruchemically blank Identity via a Hemalurgic spike. Even if you needed to worry about the original donor's Identity messing with the recipient's ability to fully blank their Identity, the donor could blank their own Identity while being spiked, making the Identity-blanking spike Identity-blanked itself.

Yes but it depends where the spike has a power granting binding point. Then you need to find aluminum ferring, which could be very rare, as Brandon avoids talking about Identity.

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I doubt it. They didn't have much access to Malwish medallion tech, but they did seem to know how to create Unkeyed Metalminds (not Unsealed though), as Mr. Suit spoke of being able to "make someone else weak, while we get the strength" or something like that. Plus, Kelesina Shores was working with the Set and had an Unkeyed Goldmind (and a very full one at that). So they almost certainly knew how to use Hemalurgy in order to blank Identity.

It does make me wonder though; evidence points to them knowing how to use Hemalurgy to gain access to Feruchemy in order to blank Identity. But they don't use this technique when trying to create power-granting spikes from non-Allomancers (as far as I can tell). Did the thought just not occur to them?

It's possible they picked up some aluminum medallions from a Malwish ship they deconstructed in BoM. There was a lot of tech there. It would certainly be easier than using hemalurgy. I can believe they'd found one aluminum ferring but multiple not so likely tbf. Then spiking your members with Identity spike would damage them and maybe depending on binding point, make them unable to remove that spike while the person is still living.

[Trusk'our]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes but it depends where the spike has a power granting binding point.

I'm confused. Why would the bindpoint that the aluminum-Feruchemy granting spike used matter?

Edited February 19, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

Just now, Trusk'our said:

I'm confused. Why would the bindpoint that the aluminum-Feruchemy granting spike matter?

if its in heart, you can't remove it without killing him

[Trusk'our]

Just now, alder24 said:

if its in heart, you can't remove it without killing him

Technically, you don't need the aluminum Ferring to survive. 

But, if the Set really did value them, they could grant them Feruchemical gold to heal after removing the other spike.

[alder24]

Just now, Trusk'our said:

Technically, you don't need the aluminum Ferring to survive. 

But, if the Set really did value them, they could grant them Feruchemical gold to heal after removing the other spike.

Ferring no, Set members yes, and that would require a lot of health, as soul is also damaged

[Trusk'our]

Just now, alder24 said:

Ferring no, Set members yes,

True.

Unless someone higher up on the roster wanted a competitor gone.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

and that would require a lot of health, as soul is also damaged

If it's the original Ferring or Misting whose power has been excised, then yes, it would require a lot of power. If it's the recipient of the Invested spike who is getting it removed, it should just be the physical damage that needs to be delt with. After all, Spook didn't seem to have any spiritual ramifications for removing a Hemalurgic spike from his body.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

If it's the recipient of the Invested spike who is getting it removed, it should just be the physical damage that needs to be delt with. After all, Spook didn't seem to have any spiritual ramifications for removing a Hemalurgic spike from his body.

Recipient's soul is also damaged by a spike. Spook got his in arm, and soon after was healed by Harmony. Healing the soul with Feruchemy requires a lot of attributes.

[Trusk'our]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Recipient's soul is also damaged by a spike. Spook got his in arm, and soon after was healed by Harmony.

I thought that the lingering damage to Spook's Spiritweb was caused by a combination of lots of physical trauma and Savantism.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I thought that the lingering damage to Spook's Spiritweb was caused by a combination of lots of physical trauma and Savantism.

This too as well. But spikes do create cracks in the recipient's soul which is partially filled with a piece of soul contained in the spike, when you remove the spike, cracks remains.

Edit: WoB:

Spoiler

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So say you go to Roshar and you give somebody a Hemalurgic spike for some Allomantic power, don't care what, and you use it to become a savant. Does that qualify them as 'broken' enough to become a Radiant? As long as they are also following the Ideals to attract a spren.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So becoming a Radiant is a spectrum of terminologies. It... probably, but you would have to find a Radiant who would, or a spren who would be willing to touch that, okay? It's going to drive them back.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So would it also affect your probability of becoming an Elantrian?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah it would affect your ability to become anything else, yes.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it's easier for Investiture to get in. Does it make it easier for other Investitures to get in?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It would make it... yes. It's going to drive spren away. So what it's really going to make easier for, there, is spren and Investiture that doesn't care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so Investiture doesn't care but spren do.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Investiture might care depending on if it's part of a Shard-- if it has intent and things like this.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it might let Stormlight in easier than a Breath, type thing.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm saying it might let Odium in easier than Syl. Because Syl would care, and Odium would not care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay cool.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Alright, so it could be a really bad thing, is what I'm trying to say to you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Yeah that's cool. I just want to know more about gold too. Gold Allomancy too. Because Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016)

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by alder24

[Trusk'our]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This too as well. But spikes do create cracks in the recipient's soul which is partially filled with a piece of soul contained in the spike, when you remove the spike, cracks remains.

Edit: WoB:

  Hide contents

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So say you go to Roshar and you give somebody a Hemalurgic spike for some Allomantic power, don't care what, and you use it to become a savant. Does that qualify them as 'broken' enough to become a Radiant? As long as they are also following the Ideals to attract a spren.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So becoming a Radiant is a spectrum of terminologies. It... probably, but you would have to find a Radiant who would, or a spren who would be willing to touch that, okay? It's going to drive them back.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So would it also affect your probability of becoming an Elantrian?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah it would affect your ability to become anything else, yes.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it's easier for Investiture to get in. Does it make it easier for other Investitures to get in?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It would make it... yes. It's going to drive spren away. So what it's really going to make easier for, there, is spren and Investiture that doesn't care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so Investiture doesn't care but spren do.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Investiture might care depending on if it's part of a Shard-- if it has intent and things like this.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it might let Stormlight in easier than a Breath, type thing.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm saying it might let Odium in easier than Syl. Because Syl would care, and Odium would not care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay cool.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Alright, so it could be a really bad thing, is what I'm trying to say to you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Yeah that's cool. I just want to know more about gold too. Gold Allomancy too. Because Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016)

 

But as soon as Spook removed his spike, Ruin no longer could push into his Spiritweb to appear as Kelsier; Spook's Spiritweb cracks weren't wide enough any longer. Using that reasoning, the spiritual damage caused by having a Hemalurgically charged spike implanted into your body should be gone once the spike is removed, shouldn't it?

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

But as soon as Spook removed his spike, Ruin no longer could push into his Spiritweb to appear as Kelsier; Spook's Spiritweb cracks weren't wide enough any longer. Using that reasoning, the spiritual damage caused by having a Hemalurgically charged spike implanted into your body should be gone once the spike is removed, shouldn't it?

Hemalurgy is ruining, it always leaves damage. While spike is removed, spike was also Ruin's invested art and probably contained some of his investiture allowing him for easier interaction. Like WoB said, spikes give you cracks in the soul, you can't heal them without investiture and healing. So the soul will remain damaged after removing the spike. Hemalurgy always twists your soul and body in a destructive way, irreversible without healing- like Penrod had spiked through his heart, was still alive, but removing the spike would kill him as the changes done to his body by the spike would not reverse. The same is with the soul.

[Elder]

On 2/19/2023 at 3:24 PM, alder24 said:

Hemalurgy is ruining, it always leaves damage. While spike is removed, spike was also Ruin's invested art and probably contained some of his investiture allowing him for easier interaction. Like WoB said, spikes give you cracks in the soul, you can't heal them without investiture and healing. So the soul will remain damaged after removing the spike. Hemalurgy always twists your soul and body in a destructive way, irreversible without healing- like Penrod had spiked through his heart, was still alive, but removing the spike would kill him as the changes done to his body by the spike would not reverse. The same is with the soul.

I wonder if this is why the spikes they made without killing weren’t didn’t take permanently.  They weren’t ruining, so they couldn’t evoke Ruin’s power.

I also wonder about the long term effects of giving up that bit of Preservation.  The scientist called it vestigial but I’m not sure if they had the same concerns I do.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Elder said:

I wonder if this is why the spikes they made without killing weren’t didn’t take permanently.  They weren’t ruining, so they couldn’t evoke Ruin’s power.

Of course they were ruining, they used Hemalurgy, it's always ruining. Right intent, small spike and binding points, which avoid vital organs are most likely the reason why those people survived. The thing which was stolen from them is also a likely factor. 

12 hours ago, Elder said:

I also wonder about the long term effects of giving up that bit of Preservation.  The scientist called it vestigial but I’m not sure if they had the same concerns I do.

Most likely similar to Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

being a Drab, but more severe, because of the damage done by Hemalurgy (it forms cracks in a soul so I would say madness is likely to happen) - WoBs:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vivenna at the Safe House

Vivenna is right about what happens to a person when they lose their Breath. It is a part of your soul, and without one, you are more prone to depression, you get sick much more easily, and you're generally more irritable.

I included this mention here because I'm betting that most people who read the book side with Denth and assume he's right when he talks about these things. But don't be too judgmental about the Idrians—yes, they're biased, but the Hallandren are too in a lot of ways. It's not as simple as one side always being right and the other wrong. In this case, the Idrian teachings are correct, and most Hallandren are looking for justifications when they say that giving up one's Breath isn't all that damaging to them.

Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 26, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty-One

Vivenna, Sick and Disoriented, Gets Turned Away by the Restaurant Keeper

One of the ways I decided to make Vivenna's sections here work better was by enhancing the fuzziness of her mind. By giving her this sense of numbness, I hope to indicate that something is not right with her.

It's common for someone who suddenly becomes a Drab to get sick almost immediately. For a time, her immune system was magically enhanced and warded, in a way, to keep her from becoming ill. With that removed suddenly, sickness can strike. She hasn't built up immunities to the sicknesses going around, and by becoming a Drab, her immune system suddenly works far worse than that of other people.

These things combined made her come down with something pretty nasty the very day she put away her Breath. This would have killed her, eventually, if she hadn't done something about it. She would have grown so dizzy and confused that she wouldn't have even been able to walk.

By sending men to find her, Denth saved her life.

Anyway, I feel that these scenes work much better now. We can look at Vivenna's time on the streets in the same surreal sense that she does. They happened in the past, in a strange dream state. In that way, they can seem much longer than just two chapters and a couple of weeks.

Warbreaker Annotations (Feb. 7, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vivenna's Thoughts on Being a Drab

A lot of what happened to Vivenna—how she saw the world and how she acted—was influenced by being a Drab. As I've said before, the Hallandren aren't right when they say losing your Breath does nothing to you. Most Drabs struggle with depression, and the fact that they're almost always sick doesn't help either.

And so, Vivenna's time on the streets was artificially made more dreary and terrible than it truly was. Being a Drab, being sick, the shock of being betrayed—these things combined to give you the person you saw in the previous two chapters. It's a way to cut a corner. I wanted Vivenna to feel like she'd been on the streets for months, but for it only to have been a few weeks.

She is able to make her hair change colors again. This is a representation of the fact that she has started to pull out of the nightmare. She's slightly in control of her world again, and the roughest time for her has passed. There's also a clue in that hair, one that Vasher mentions. Because of it, and her heritage, and something very mysterious in the past, every member of the royal line has a fraction of a divine Returned Breath in them. That makes it much easier for them to learn to Awaken than a normal person.

Warbreaker Annotations (Feb. 22, 2011)

 

 

[Elder]

56 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Of course they were ruining, they used Hemalurgy, it's always ruining. Right intent, small spike and binding points, which avoid vital organs are most likely the reason why those people survived. The thing which was stolen from them is also a likely factor. 

Most likely similar to Warbreaker spoilers:

  Hide contents

being a Drab, but more severe, because of the damage done by Hemalurgy (it forms cracks in a soul so I would say madness is likely to happen) - WoBs:

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Vivenna at the Safe House

Vivenna is right about what happens to a person when they lose their Breath. It is a part of your soul, and without one, you are more prone to depression, you get sick much more easily, and you're generally more irritable.

I included this mention here because I'm betting that most people who read the book side with Denth and assume he's right when he talks about these things. But don't be too judgmental about the Idrians—yes, they're biased, but the Hallandren are too in a lot of ways. It's not as simple as one side always being right and the other wrong. In this case, the Idrian teachings are correct, and most Hallandren are looking for justifications when they say that giving up one's Breath isn't all that damaging to them.

Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 26, 2010)

 

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty-One

Vivenna, Sick and Disoriented, Gets Turned Away by the Restaurant Keeper

One of the ways I decided to make Vivenna's sections here work better was by enhancing the fuzziness of her mind. By giving her this sense of numbness, I hope to indicate that something is not right with her.

It's common for someone who suddenly becomes a Drab to get sick almost immediately. For a time, her immune system was magically enhanced and warded, in a way, to keep her from becoming ill. With that removed suddenly, sickness can strike. She hasn't built up immunities to the sicknesses going around, and by becoming a Drab, her immune system suddenly works far worse than that of other people.

These things combined made her come down with something pretty nasty the very day she put away her Breath. This would have killed her, eventually, if she hadn't done something about it. She would have grown so dizzy and confused that she wouldn't have even been able to walk.

By sending men to find her, Denth saved her life.

Anyway, I feel that these scenes work much better now. We can look at Vivenna's time on the streets in the same surreal sense that she does. They happened in the past, in a strange dream state. In that way, they can seem much longer than just two chapters and a couple of weeks.

Warbreaker Annotations (Feb. 7, 2011)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Vivenna's Thoughts on Being a Drab

A lot of what happened to Vivenna—how she saw the world and how she acted—was influenced by being a Drab. As I've said before, the Hallandren aren't right when they say losing your Breath does nothing to you. Most Drabs struggle with depression, and the fact that they're almost always sick doesn't help either.

And so, Vivenna's time on the streets was artificially made more dreary and terrible than it truly was. Being a Drab, being sick, the shock of being betrayed—these things combined to give you the person you saw in the previous two chapters. It's a way to cut a corner. I wanted Vivenna to feel like she'd been on the streets for months, but for it only to have been a few weeks.

She is able to make her hair change colors again. This is a representation of the fact that she has started to pull out of the nightmare. She's slightly in control of her world again, and the roughest time for her has passed. There's also a clue in that hair, one that Vasher mentions. Because of it, and her heritage, and something very mysterious in the past, every member of the royal line has a fraction of a divine Returned Breath in them. That makes it much easier for them to learn to Awaken than a normal person.

Warbreaker Annotations (Feb. 22, 2011)

 

 

Were they ruining though? Usually the spikes kill, and that’s how they Ruin.  With these non lethal ones, the damage they do is temporary.  They work better if there’s trauma, but I’m postulating here that the powers were correspondingly temporary.  Rusts, maybe the reason the powers fade is because the victims get their preservation back as they recover.

I’m not saying this an insurmountable obstacle, but I think it is an obstacle.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Elder

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Elder said:

Were they ruining though? Usually the spikes kill, and that’s how they Ruin.  With these non lethal ones, the damage they do is temporary.  They work better if there’s trauma, but I’m postulating here that the powers were correspondingly temporary.  Rusts, maybe the reason the powers fade is because the victims get their preservation back as they recover.

I’m not saying this an insurmountable obstacle, but I think it is an obstacle.

What else would you call ripping part of somebody's soul and losing part of it in the process irreversibly? It's inherently ruinous as it's using Hemalurgy, Ruin's invested art, who as a Shard, cares only about ruining, destroying, changing, hurting and increasing entropy. The damage isn't temporary, it leaves permanent scars, cracks and holes in a person's soul (both donor and recipient), and damage to the body. Victims won't get their pieces of soul back without investiture healing (which would require a lot of gold, compounding levels), and even their scars on the soul will remain. It's Hemalurgy, it's always ruinous, it's always damaging.

Spoiler

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you.

[...]

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb.

[...]

Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016)

 

Spoiler

The_Vikachu

I remember reading you answer earlier that a person being used to charge a hemalurgic spike does not necessarily have to die. Would that victim be similar to a Drab from Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, making a spike rips off a piece of someone's soul. So...yeah. I'd need to see my exact quote from before, but let's say it's not going to leave a person in good shape.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

[Trusk'our]

14 hours ago, Elder said:

I wonder if this is why the spikes they made without killing weren’t didn’t take permanently.  They weren’t ruining, so they couldn’t evoke Ruin’s power.

I think that it actually could be one or both of two things.

1. The conflicting Identity of the Hemalurgic charges caused them to "grind" against each other, eventually preventing them from doing anything useful. Basically, the Invested powers would have existed temporarily, but the pieces of Spiritweb acted like how a human's immune system would if a bunch of other humans' body parts - and their own immune systems - were sewed together; they just attack and destroy one another. Maybe the Investiture would even stay in the spike, but the "structure" of the Spiritweb fragments, the ability to use the Invested powers, would be ruined.

Quote

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

2. I think that it is also possible that since the people being spiked didn't snap and come into Allomancy, the Investiture hasn't yet been programmed into any specific power yet.

It might be that the programming is actually predetermined though, which would make more sense since some people demonstrated having powers already, which might be because enough of the donors happened to have the same programmed power in their Spiritweb, and the Trellium spike placement happened to line up with that power in the recipient (i.e., if ten of the donors would have been Tineyes had they snapped and the spike in the recipient was placed in a physical quadrant bindpoint, the recipient would have demonstrated Allomantic tin temporarily).

[Elder]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

What else would you call ripping part of somebody's soul and losing part of it in the process irreversibly? It's inherently ruinous as it's using Hemalurgy, Ruin's invested art, who as a Shard, cares only about ruining, destroying, changing, hurting and increasing entropy. The damage isn't temporary, it leaves permanent scars, cracks and holes in a person's soul (both donor and recipient), and damage to the body. Victims won't get their pieces of soul back without investiture healing (which would require a lot of gold, compounding levels), and even their scars on the soul will remain. It's Hemalurgy, it's always ruinous, it's always damaging.

  Hide contents

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you.

[...]

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb.

[...]

Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016)

 

  Hide contents

The_Vikachu

I remember reading you answer earlier that a person being used to charge a hemalurgic spike does not necessarily have to die. Would that victim be similar to a Drab from Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, making a spike rips off a piece of someone's soul. So...yeah. I'd need to see my exact quote from before, but let's say it's not going to leave a person in good shape.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

  Hide contents

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

Maybe it’s just not ruining enough.  Maybe Ruin still wants death, and isn’t satisfied.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Elder

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Elder said:

Maybe it’s just not ruining enough.  Maybe Ruin still wants death, and isn’t satisfied.

I don't know what else I have to say and show. Ruin isn't just about killing, he's about increasing entropy, destructive, irreversible change. Every Hemalurgic spiking does just that. 

[Elder]

Just now, alder24 said:

I don't know what else I have to say and show. Ruin isn't just about killing, he's about increasing entropy, destructive, irreversible change. Every Hemalurgic spiking does just that. 

No, I’ll concede you that it is still Ruining. I’m just saying it Ruins more to kill someone in addition to that soul damage.  And, using to power in a way that satisfies its Intent less may yield lesser results.