spoilers [RoW] Counting Shallan's Ideals, we've missed something big

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

My main theory that changes how we count Shallan's Ideals is that Shallan said an Ideal as she killed Testament. It would explain which swords she's using in WoR and how they are working. 

 

1st Ideal— Same for all Orders. She said this early in her childhood. 

 

2nd Ideal— She said this first to Testament. It was probably simple and childlike, given her age, maybe “I love you” or “you are my (only) true friend” being all alone in the Davar House. My theory: Lightweavers earn their Blade at 2nd Ideal, not 3rd. We've seen Windrunners and Edgedancers earn blade at 3rd Ideal (WoR for Kaladin, Edgedancer for Lift). Some don't even bond a spren until later Ideals (like Skybreakers in OB). Bottom line, Orders progress at different rates and makes sense from a Cultivation-based viewpoint (she would like variety in progression). 

2nd Ideal— "I killed my father" is said to Pattern. This means that he's now a blade by the end of TWoK but can’t manifest yet because he’s weak in thinking and complex ideas. He can't even manifest physically until Shallan draws his pattern in the beginning of WoR. This means that Tyn is killed by Testament. In the moment before killing Tyn, Shallan notes:

Quote

Calm, Shallan told herself. Be calm!
Ten heartbeats.
But for her, it didn’t have to be ten, did it?
No. It must be. Time, I need time!

:WoR, Chapter 34

Notice: "But for her, it didn't have to be ten". I think "her" refers to Testament, not Shallan. Testament doesn't need to be summoned in 10 heartbeats because she is still partially bonded to Shallan. We also know deadeyes can be summoned in less, such as with Maya and Adolin (I think they got down to 7 beats). Right at this point Shallan begins to create Veil to hide the past about Testament (confirmed in RoW). The moment of her using Testament after all these years is what pushes her to make Veil, since that action of using Testament is what starts to bring the memories back.

 

3rd Ideal— My theory: "I hate you" is said to Testament. Yep, Shallan broke their bond as she swore the 3rd Ideal. Testament feels shame for letting Shallan kill her mother and accepts these words as truth, that she knows Shallan truly hates herself and Testament. It would be a great twist, since we wouldn't think that you can swear an Ideal while killing your spren. But Testament is the only one who needs to accept the Truths, and she does if moved to shame. 

3rd Ideal— "I killed my mother" is said to Pattern. This was said after the Oathgate transfer, so Pattern had to have been a sword at that point already. This fits with the idea that Cryptics can be a blade by the 2nd Ideal. There is not nearly enough Investiture in Testament for her to do that, being a deadeyes; she can sometimes help soulcast and be a Blade, but that’s it. She moves slower than Pattern does in the Cognitive Realm, so Shallan running to the Oathgate and activating it at end of WoR might've happened too fast for Testament to keep up with her. We also know deadeyes move slowly and keep their distance from their Shardbearers (Maya walking a ways behind the group in OB). Shallan has no need to summon her afterwards, now that Pattern manifested as a Blade already in the chasms and again for the Oathgate, AND Shallan acknowledging how Pattern is different than other Blades, so she finds no need to summon Testament again. The transfer occurs and Testament is left on the platform in the Cognitive Realm, the mysterious island in the east where she was found by the shopkeeper (RoW) and held with her after that. 

 

4th Ideal— "I'm terrified" is said to Testament in TWoK. These truths to her are still pretty simplistic because Testament is from a childhood bond. This grants some soulcasting for Shallan but it's still very weak. By the end of WoR, there's a that WoB says Shallan is on 4th Ideal. He's referring to this one, not any Ideals with Pattern. 

 

4th Ideal-"I killed [my spren]" was said to herself in Kalak's study. Pattern has not yet accepted this (or maybe did offscreen but that seems weak), because he didn’t hear the truth. Remember, she forbid Pattern from following her to Kalak's house. 

 

5th Ideal— This will be a one-and-done truth, a bridge between her bonds with the two spren. It will heal Testament and propel her to 5th ideal for both bonds. Testament’s Ideals revolve around shallan as a child while Pattern’s exposes her childhood, so 5th Ideal is a combination that satisfies both of her spren, and they both accept it. This makes it plausible for Shallan to sweat a single Ideal in the next book. 

 

Thoughts?

 

[Frustration he/him]

Skybreakers get their spren at oath 3.

And Shallan used Testament during WoR, not Pattern.

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

@Frustration, but one cannot activate an Oathgate with a deadeyes. Then again, Shallan is the only case we’ve seen where the deadeyes is wielded by the originally-bonded knight. Maybe then it’s different, but I doubt Testament is that powerful to open an Oathgate. It seems like a write-off if in Book 5 we learn, “well, their bond is special, so Testament functions differently than a deadeyes”. 

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said:

@Frustration, but one cannot activate an Oathgate with a deadeyes. Then again, Shallan is the only case we’ve seen where the deadeyes is wielded by the originally-bonded knight. Maybe then it’s different, but I doubt Testament is that powerful to open an Oathgate. It seems like a write-off if in Book 5 we learn, “well, their bond is special, so Testament functions differently than a deadeyes”. 

All deadeyes function differently with their original radiant.

Spoiler

Dr Bonko 360

Is there a difference between the way that Shallan 'broke' her bond with Testament and the way that the rest of the Radiants broke their bonds in the Recreance that allowed Shallan to use Surgebinding between her bonds with Testament and Pattern?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of and kind of not. I mean the thing about it is, some of the things that are happening with Shallan could've happened in the past and probably did, but it's been so long ago that it's not really relevant. So it's less like she's done something super unique and more like things that are happening with Shallan also probably happened—not with everybody but with some—but there's just not record of it and it's not as relevant to the conversation. So, less that she's special and more that this is a possibility. Not giving any confirmations to any specific items, just saying what is happening with Shallan could theoretically have happened in the past and probably did.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Frustration

[Treamayne]

15 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said:

@Frustration, but one cannot activate an Oathgate with a deadeyes. Then again, Shallan is the only case we’ve seen where the deadeyes is wielded by the originally-bonded knight. Maybe then it’s different, but I doubt Testament is that powerful to open an Oathgate. It seems like a write-off if in Book 5 we learn, “well, their bond is special, so Testament functions differently than a deadeyes”. 

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

All deadeyes function differently with their original radiant.

Keep in mind that the reason why a normal (dead) Shardblade can't activate an Oathgate is because they are no longer "malleable" (or current wielders haven't figured out how to do it on-demand and quickly*) and so can't become a "key." However, we do know that the Testament Blade does still retain the ability to change shape (either because Shallan "expects" it to do so, having had access to the Testament Blade while she was alive - or because the damage to their bond is different than a normal DeadBlade) because we see her, through Kaladin's viewpoint, change the TestamantBlade into a dagger and gardening trough for scooping out the side of the Chasm wall in WoR.

Activating the Oathgate has nothing to do with the amount of investiture in the Blade - since the investiture comes from the gems and Stormlight in the lamps and in what the transportees are carrying with them.

*DeadBlade's shapes - WoB and Coppermind

Spoiler

Quote

Coppermind - Dead Shardblades lose some of the functionality that they once had. The Blades lose most of their ability to change into different weapons, although the shape of the Blade may change slightly to accommodate its owner after being used for a long time.

Quote

RIT

So, my question is glowing Shardplate and retractable helmets. Is that a similar origin of the Shardblades—

Brandon Sanderson

There's a similarity, but they are also very different.

RIT

Yeah, I noticed they do seem like advanced fabrials, because Adolin just keeps going on and on about how they're all interchangeable and they all feel comfortable after a while, and it doesn't have the same kind of thing with the Shardblades.

Brandon Sanderson

No, it doesn't. Though a Shardblade, used for a long time, will change shape slightly.

 

 

[alder24]

31 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind that the reason why a normal (dead) Shardblade can't activate an Oathgate is because they are no longer "malleable" (or current wielders haven't figured out how to do it on-demand and quickly*) and so can't become a "key." However, we do know that the Testament Blade does still retain the ability to change shape (either because Shallan "expects" it to do so, having had access to the Testament Blade while she was alive - or because the damage to their bond is different than a normal DeadBlade) because we see her, through Kaladin's viewpoint, change the TestamantBlade into a dagger and gardening trough for scooping out the side of the Chasm wall in WoR.

Was that Testament at Narak? She said "Pattern" before summoning the blade, and while she called it "the same blade with which she killed" and "hidden soul", we know not every order gets their blades at 3rd Ideal. It doesn't make sense for a deadeye to activate an Oathgate, they lack connection.

Spoiler

Kythis

Is there a specific number of the ideals that they have to do before they can get the Shardblade?  

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on the Order.

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

Also if it was Testament that Shallan gave to Kaladin in chasms, why didn't it scream in his head? It's still a deadeye, and while Kaladin had huge troubles with his Oath at this time, and Syl was partially dead, I think he should be able to hear something at least. I'm still confused when Shallan used Testament as a blade, and when Pattern.

Edited February 4, 2023 by alder24

[leftsides]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:Also if it was Testament that Shallan gave to Kaladin in chasms, why didn't it scream in his head? It's still a deadeye, and while Kaladin had huge troubles with his Oath at this time, and Syl was partially dead, I think he should be able to hear something at least. I'm still confused when Shallan used Testament as a blade, and when Pattern.

I think it was Testament in the chasms and Pattern at Narak. 
 The fact that Kal didn’t hear the screaming I think is most simply explained by either (or both) the fact that Syl was nowhere to be found, or that since Testament was still with her radiant.

We don’t know why they hear the screams—i don’t think it’s explicitly stated that the current radiant spren is the one screaming, just that they know it feels wrong for a radiant to wield the dead blade.

 

It’s entirely possible the screaming is the dead blade protesting against being used by someone it doesn’t have a Nahel bond with, and its Radiant is no longer around to give it permission to be wielded by another. I think the dead blades scream every time but only a Radiant can hear them because of their bond to their own spren. 

[Frustration he/him]

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Was that Testament at Narak? She said "Pattern" before summoning the blade, and while she called it "the same blade with which she killed" and "hidden soul", we know not every order gets their blades at 3rd Ideal. It doesn't make sense for a deadeye to activate an Oathgate, they lack connection.

  Reveal hidden contents

Kythis

Is there a specific number of the ideals that they have to do before they can get the Shardblade?  

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on the Order.

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

Also if it was Testament that Shallan gave to Kaladin in chasms, why didn't it scream in his head? It's still a deadeye, and while Kaladin had huge troubles with his Oath at this time, and Syl was partially dead, I think he should be able to hear something at least. I'm still confused when Shallan used Testament as a blade, and when Pattern.

The inkspren who had Testament found her on an island, which in this case would be the Oathgate where Shallan left her.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The inkspren who had Testament found her on an island, which in this case would be the Oathgate where Shallan left her.

Or it could be somewhere near Thaylen City, deadeye follow their bearers. I don't feel like this is a clear confirmation.

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

However, we do know that the Testament Blade does still retain the ability to change shape (either because Shallan "expects" it to do so, having had access to the Testament Blade while she was alive - or because the damage to their bond is different than a normal DeadBlade)

WoB mentions a deadeye changes shape slightly over time. In Part 1 of RoW, Navani says scholars measured the thickness of the gate walls and determined that the Blade “melts” into it (otherwise it would pierce through the exterior). That’s a pretty drastic change. 

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said:

WoB mentions a deadeye changes shape slightly over time. In Part 1 of RoW, Navani says scholars measured the thickness of the gate walls and determined that the Blade “melts” into it (otherwise it would pierce through the exterior). That’s a pretty drastic change. 

Precisely. We know the Chasms used a Testament Blade because:

• Shallan is shown to be hiding by a boulder using a shadow illusion while:
• At the same time Pattern is hosting an illusion of Shallan moving in the open and "yelling" to distract the Chasmfield while
• At the same time Kaladin is holding the Testament Blade.

So based on that, we can deduce:

• Testamant's blade can still change shape like a living Shardblade (for whatever reason)
• Every instance of a Shardblade we see with Shallan in WoR is likely to be a TestamentBlade (Tyn, Chasms, Narak).
• Shallan calling for Pattern in Narak is the start of Veil "protecting" Shallan by covering over memories. Since Shallan is getting close to the Truth about her mother, but isn't nearly ready for the Truth about Testament - she "says" Pattern to summon the TestamantBlade to lay the foundation of future self-deception. You can tell that Shallan's interactions with Renarin change subtly once they find a way into the Oathgate Chamber.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Precisely. We know the Chasms used a Testament Blade because:

• Shallan is shown to be hiding by a boulder using a shadow illusion while:
• At the same time Pattern is hosting an illusion of Kaladin moving in the open to distract the Chasmfield while
• At the same time Kaladin is holding the Testament Blade.

So based on that, we can deduce:

• Testamant's blade can still change shape like a living Shardblade (for whatever reason)
• Every instance of a Shardblade we see with Shallan in WoR is likely to be a TestamentBlade (Tyn, Chasms, Narak).
• Shallan calling for Pattern in Narak is the start of Veil "protecting" Shallan by covering over memories. Since Shallan is getting close to the Truth about her mother, but isn't nearly ready for the Truth about Testament - she "says" Pattern to summon the TestamantBlade to lay the foundation of future self-deception. You can tell that Shallan's interactions with Renarin change subtly once they find a way into the Oathgate Chamber.

That's a great explanation. Thanks. To add to it, weren't illusions of Kaladin and Shallan in chasms also talking? This she could do only with Pattern at that moment. To add more, Shallan in RoW believed that she was using her surges in the time between breaking the bond with Testament and bonding Pattern, and if she could access her surges, then Testament could do more than a regular deadeye. Also Maya and Adolin are the example that deadeye can behave extraordinarily.

[CosmicSieve]

Shallan did not use Pattern to send her illusion in the chasm. She specifically thinks about how much easier it would be if she could. Kaladin heard the illusion of Shallan yelling, but it echoed oddly, probably because she was actually yelling from her hiding spot.

The biggest hint that the Blade is Pattern is that it glows. Dead Blades don't glow. 

Kaladin would not have heard screaming in either case, as he'd killed Syl at that point.

[Treamayne]

34 minutes ago, CosmicSieve said:

Shallan did not use Pattern to send her illusion in the chasm. She specifically thinks about how much easier it would be if she could. Kaladin heard the illusion of Shallan yelling, but it echoed oddly, probably because she was actually yelling from her hiding spot.

If you mean this section: (Ch 72)

Spoiler

The chasmfiend trumped and—

“Hey! Hey!”

Kaladin twisted about. Shallan? What was that fool woman doing, standing in the chasm, waving her hands like a maniac? How had she even gotten past him?

She yelled again, getting the chasmfiend’s attention. Her voice echoed oddly.

Kaladin clearly sees her, in a direction she could not be, and the only way her illusion could get to the other side of both the chasmfiend and Kaladin unnoticed is the same way she made the illusion walk back in Ch 60:

Spoiler

She did the next bit by instinct. She had a connection to the illusion, and she had a connection to Pattern, so . . .

With a push of Stormlight, she attached the illusion to Pattern as she often attached them to herself. His glow subsided. “Walk around,” she said.

“I don’t walk . . .” Pattern said.

“You know what I mean,” Shallan said.

Pattern moved, and the image moved with him. It didn’t walk, unfortunately. The image just kind of glided. Like light reflected onto the wall from a spoon you idly turned in your hands. She cheered to herself anyway.

So, if she is in the lee of the rockfall, hiding in shadows and illusion; and Pattern is moving her illusion on the far side of the chasmfiend and Kaladin; then the blade in Kaladin's had has to be TestamentBlade.

Quote

The biggest hint that the Blade is Pattern is that it glows. Dead Blades don't glow.

Dead blades don't change shape either - but we clearly see the blade used by Kaladin, then Shallan do both.

Quote

Kaladin would not have heard screaming in either case, as he'd killed Syl at that point.

I think we all agree with this

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She specifically thinks about how much easier it would be if she could.

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

To add to it, weren't illusions of Kaladin and Shallan in chasms also talking? This she could do only with Pattern at that moment.

Right, just like her calling 'Pattern' when she summoned the TestamentBlade in Narak - this is her as an unreliable narrator setting the foundations of her future lies to herself. So, an illusion talking with her voice (via Pattern) moving (via Pattern); but she is blocking out that she attached those illusions to Pattern even as she does so - by lying to herself and saying "this would be easier if. . . "

So, even as she is doing things that prove she had a previous bond with Testament, she has to convince herself there are other reasons why and how she is doing what she is doing. In the more mundane realm, Sanderson could not make any weirdness too obvious in WoR or it would spoil the reveal in RoW.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[AquaRegia he/him]

I've been convinced for years now that every time Shallan uses a Shardblade in WoR it's Testament.  I think the evidence is insurmountable.

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Testament could do more than a regular deadeye.

It's not exactly that; more like "Testament isn't a regular deadeye" because she is still bonded (to some degree) to her original Radiant.  What people think of as "regular deadeyes" are spren who broke their bonds a thousand years ago... and Maya and Adolin are showing that even that's not the whole story.

 

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

she "says" Pattern to summon the TestamantBlade to lay the foundation of future self-deception.

I like the idea. However, this would imply that Testament activated the gate and ended up in Urithiru. But she’s found on a tiny eastern island: Narak’s Oathgate. So she didn’t go through and was left on the gate. This implies that Pattern was the sword in Narak. 

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said:

This implies that Pattern was the sword in Narak. 

Except that Shallan had been using the TestamentBlade on the Oathgates for days - she could have left it behind at any time, but most likely right before OB Ch 8:

Spoiler

Plus, there wasn’t much of her to go around. Only an active, full Knight Radiant could work the control buildings at the center of each platform, initiating the swap. For now, that meant only Shallan.

It meant she had to summon her Blade each time. The Blade she’d used to kill her mother. A truth she’d spoken as an Ideal of her order of Radiants.

Unless you think she used Pattern to kill her mother years before they met - she was using Testamant on the Oathgate until she could finally summon Pattern instead and left Testamant behind.

[alder24]

5 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said:

I like the idea. However, this would imply that Testament activated the gate and ended up in Urithiru. But she’s found on a tiny eastern island: Narak’s Oathgate. So she didn’t go through and was left on the gate. This implies that Pattern was the sword in Narak. 

Not necessarily. Shallan has traveled a lot since WoR. She went with Kal to open Thaylen oathgate, later she moved from Narak to Kholinar, and through CR from Kholinar to Thaylen again. In RoW she spent months on Shattered Plains. Testament was found a year before Adolin met her at Nameless, on the island far east. So it would be somewhere during OB, or shortly after. It did't say "tiny" or small, just an island far east. It could be close to Thaylen, Kholinar, or Narak, and it could be because Testament was following Shallan.

And to add to this, Shallan summoned Shardblade at the last meeting with Mraize in Urithiru in WoR, before revealing the truth about her mother - by logic presented above, it also had to be Testament, and it would be the last location Testament was summoned to, and from Urithiru she would travel following Shallan.

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Except that Shallan had been using the TestamentBlade on the Oathgates for days - she could have left it behind at any time, but most likely right before OB Ch 8:

  Hide contents

Plus, there wasn’t much of her to go around. Only an active, full Knight Radiant could work the control buildings at the center of each platform, initiating the swap. For now, that meant only Shallan.

It meant she had to summon her Blade each time. The Blade she’d used to kill her mother. A truth she’d spoken as an Ideal of her order of Radiants.

Unless you think she used Pattern to kill her mother years before they met - she was using Testamant on the Oathgate until she could finally summon Pattern instead and left Testamant behind.

I think in OB she was using only Pattern as a blade, but was still deceiving herself that Pattern and Testament were the same. As you said, she is an unreliable narrator.

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Shallan summoned Shardblade at the last meeting with Mraize in Urithiru in WoR, before revealing the truth about her mother - by logic presented above, it also had to be Testament, and it would be the last location Testament was summoned to, and from Urithiru she would travel following Shallan.

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Except that Shallan had been using the TestamentBlade on the Oathgates for days - she could have left it behind at any time, but most likely right before OB Ch 8:

  Reveal hidden contents

Plus, there wasn’t much of her to go around. Only an active, full Knight Radiant could work the control buildings at the center of each platform, initiating the swap. For now, that meant only Shallan.

It meant she had to summon her Blade each time. The Blade she’d used to kill her mother. A truth she’d spoken as an Ideal of her order of Radiants.

Unless you think she used Pattern to kill her mother years before they met - she was using Testamant on the Oathgate until she could finally summon Pattern instead and left Testamant behind.

I think in OB she was using only Pattern as a blade, but was still deceiving herself that Pattern and Testament were the same.

Testament was the blade she used to kill her mother. But in WoR, when Pattern makes her remember that truth, Shallan says that her father put Pattern in the safe in the wall. Pattern doesn’t object to this, but he knows it’s not true. So she’s using Pattern in OB but says it’s the blade that she used to kill her mother because Pattern doesn’t say otherwise.