Ba-Ado-Mishram questions? theories? thoughts? crazed lunacy?

[leftsides]

Okay so. I am nearing the end of my 2nd read through of Stormlight and I had some questions, theories maybe about possibilities for BAM's storyline in book 5.

Things we know (or least think we know):

----

MAJOR SPOILERS BELOW (I am still learning how to format things here I am sorry! Also mods if this is in the wrong place please let me know :))

 

----

-Spren can be trapped in gems to create fabrials

-Unmade can be trapped in perfect gemstones

-BAM is trapped and has been for quite some time

-BAM's capture is a critical piece of the puzzle in a lot of the things going on that are currently being investigated by our lovely heroes as they fight against the Desolation, including creating deadeyes and the Sibling's ability to create tower light.

Soooo my theory starts with the idea that everything going on with BAM is a little bit more complex than BAM just being trapped and hidden away somewhere. 

The OB epigraphs go through the Urithiru gem archive and explain that the Elsecallers took Honor's Drop (a known perfect gem) to be hidden, and also discusses trapping BAM leading me to believe that Honor's Drop is the gem containing BAM. This assumption seems pretty safe, Idk if a WoB somewhere confirms such or not, but it's not a big leap from reading those epigraphs. 

I originally related this to the King's Drop (now containing the Thrill)  and Chiri Chiri consuming the stormlight within leading me to post a "Chiri Chiri is a bondsmith" theory on the subreddit, which was totally shot down! (C'mon! Chiri Chiri would be a lovely bondsmith!!). B/c we know that Larkin need spren to bond to grow (from Dawnshard) and Chiri Chiri grows pretty significantly after that quick fight with the thief. It is presumed she grows from consuming the voidlight/stormlight, but I think that might not be the case. How is she even able to consume voidlight? Well mystery solved if BAM is involved, as BAM is confirmed to have been able to create voidlight for the Parsh in the false desolation.

When Rysn describes the King's Drop to Vstim when the theft took place - it is described as being the only gem in the archive that still glowed. And it glowed with a faint red light and is said to be a piece of the Stone of Ten Dawns. The light color isn't an indicator to me, as gem colors the stormlight in any gem, but it could indicate a BAM affiliation, unsure. We really don't see many(any?) other gems in the canon that do not lose stormlight over time, so this COULD be the only perfect gem we know of. There's a point where Jasnah even notes that it is strange there aren't more perfect gems on Roshar. It's mentioned that the bankers in Shadesmar have them to store the stormlight that's used in trades --but I don't think this assumption is necessarily correct. The times we see our heroes exchange stormlight in shadesmar it seems like stormlight is constantly getting added to those gems, which would prevent any from leaking out even from a regular gemstone, wouldn't it?

At any rate, if we think the Kings Drop and Honor's drop are related, (possibly even the same) then that begs the question - where was BAM when Chiri Chiri dunified the King's Drop? They could absolutely be different gemstones entirely, perhaps both chunks of the stone of 10 dawns. BUT!! I have a new theory.

In Navani's lecture on fabrial mechanics we see a TON of discussion of how fabrials work and how to trap spren in gems. In fact that seems to be mostly the focus of this lecture. In ROW, the Sibling chastises Navani for everything she's been doing with fabrials, saying it is downright evil what the modern engineers are doing. The sibling did not send this message to Navani when they first got to Urithiru, even though they would have assumedly been using many fabrials in those days, but when she starts experimenting with conjoined fabrials in her airships and the single person lift device. Brandon doesn't typically include so many specifics for it not to pay off later, so I am thinking this is his big clue about what's going on with BAM.

In that same lecture, Navani also goes into a deep discussion of how to create conjoined fabrials, by first trapping the spren and then separating the gemstone into halves. But she doesn't mention what this does to the spren.  So now my theory:

-BAM was trapped in the King's Drop/Honor's drop (also rubies, which are the only other conjoined fabrials we know) which was then split in half, and hidden in two locations. The split did something incredibly heinous to the ecosystem of Roshar, inhibiting the Sibling and causing the deadeyes. 

I think Brandon has mentioned something along these lines relating maybe to BAM/puretons/rosharan rhythms are different now that BAM was captured, and said something like it has happened elsewhere in the Comere. Where else did we see something important to the world break and then break the magic system as a result? Elantris.

Ultimately the splitting of BAM has screwed up the Rosharn system so much that it is affecting how magic works there and any fix would require fixing the puretones/rhythms ( I don't understand the difference I am sorry) that were broken/damaged as a result of BAM's split. Could also be related to Honor's death, I am not entirely sure but I think that relates since each shared has a tone/rhythm and that seems to be important too but I don't have a tie for them yet.

 

TLDR: Chiri Chiri is definitely a bondsmith, maybe. but BAM definitely maybe is split into two.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

BAM might be split into 10 (the stone of ten dawns). Also, Chiri Chiri eating some of BAM probably wouldn't have produced a bondsmith of the likes we understand (though I could see BAM binding to Chiri Chiri in such a case).

[Frustration]

Given the description of the kings drop after the Thrill was imprisoned and before Chiri-Chiri drained I doubt an unmade was inside.

59 minutes ago, leftsides said:

How is she even able to consume voidlight? Well mystery solved if BAM is involved, as BAM is confirmed to have been able to create voidlight for the Parsh in the false desolation.

Larkin can naturally feed on voidlight

Spoiler

coltonx9

Are there types of Investiture that the larkin can't consume?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I would say that there are, but it's going to depend on the state they're in. Pure Investiture, a larkin is always going to probably be able to grab, but lots of people can get pure Investiture. Kinetic Investiture they're are gonna have a good chance at being able to grab, but they can't get everything.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Frustration

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

BAM might be split into 10 (the stone of ten dawns). Also, Chiri Chiri eating some of BAM probably wouldn't have produced a bondsmith of the likes we understand (though I could see BAM binding to Chiri Chiri in such a case).

10 stone's of the 10 levels of voiding. Perhaps a connection.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

1 hour ago, leftsides said:

Soooo my theory starts with the idea that everything going on with BAM is a little bit more complex than BAM just being trapped and hidden away somewhere. 

The OB epigraphs go through the Urithiru gem archive and explain that the Elsecallers took Honor's Drop (a known perfect gem) to be hidden, and also discusses trapping BAM leading me to believe that Honor's Drop is the gem containing BAM. This assumption seems pretty safe, Idk if a WoB somewhere confirms such or not, but it's not a big leap from reading those epigraphs.

You're correct here - I reckon it's a pretty safe assumption that Honor's Drop is holding BaAdo. 

1 hour ago, leftsides said:

I originally related this to the King's Drop (now containing the Thrill)  and Chiri Chiri consuming the stormlight within leading me to post a "Chiri Chiri is a bondsmith" theory on the subreddit, which was totally shot down! (C'mon! Chiri Chiri would be a lovely bondsmith!!). B/c we know that Larkin need spren to bond to grow (from Dawnshard) and Chiri Chiri grows pretty significantly after that quick fight with the thief. It is presumed she grows from consuming the voidlight/stormlight, but I think that might not be the case. How is she even able to consume voidlight? Well mystery solved if BAM is involved, as BAM is confirmed to have been able to create voidlight for the Parsh in the false desolation.

Larkin grow in size both due to age and the amount of Investiture that they've consumed. As mentioned prior, Voidlight is just a raw form of Investiture, which Larkin's can naturally consume. The reason they need to bond the mandra's/ luckspren is because otherwise they'd collapse under their own weight (this is Brandon's solution to circumventing the square-cube law). 

2 hours ago, leftsides said:

When Rysn describes the King's Drop to Vstim when the theft took place - it is described as being the only gem in the archive that still glowed. And it glowed with a faint red light and is said to be a piece of the Stone of Ten Dawns. The light color isn't an indicator to me, as gem colors the stormlight in any gem, but it could indicate a BAM affiliation, unsure. We really don't see many(any?) other gems in the canon that do not lose stormlight over time, so this COULD be the only perfect gem we know of.

There's a point where Jasnah even notes that it is strange there aren't more perfect gems on Roshar. It's mentioned that the bankers in Shadesmar have them to store the stormlight that's used in trades --but I don't think this assumption is necessarily correct. The times we see our heroes exchange stormlight in shadesmar it seems like stormlight is constantly getting added to those gems, which would prevent any from leaking out even from a regular gemstone, wouldn't it?

At any rate, if we think the Kings Drop and Honor's drop are related, (possibly even the same) then that begs the question - where was BAM when Chiri Chiri dunified the King's Drop? They could absolutely be different gemstones entirely, perhaps both chunks of the stone of 10 dawns. BUT!! I have a new theory.

There's a relevant WOB for these lines. Have listed below:

Quote

Questioner

Are there enough perfect gemstones on Roshar to capture all of the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there are.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

The King's Drop is the only one that we have physically seen, and it certainly could be that it and Honor's Drop are the same gemstone (which would been BaAdo's been moved to another gemstone). We aren't sure yet. My head-canon currently aligns with what you've said about the King's and Honor's Drop being two parts of the Stone of 10 Dawns; an ancient ruby stone split into ten parts.

2 hours ago, leftsides said:

In Navani's lecture on fabrial mechanics we see a TON of discussion of how fabrials work and how to trap spren in gems. In fact that seems to be mostly the focus of this lecture. In ROW, the Sibling chastises Navani for everything she's been doing with fabrials, saying it is downright evil what the modern engineers are doing. The sibling did not send this message to Navani when they first got to Urithiru, even though they would have assumedly been using many fabrials in those days, but when she starts experimenting with conjoined fabrials in her airships and the single person lift device. Brandon doesn't typically include so many specifics for it not to pay off later, so I am thinking this is his big clue about what's going on with BAM.

In that same lecture, Navani also goes into a deep discussion of how to create conjoined fabrials, by first trapping the spren and then separating the gemstone into halves. But she doesn't mention what this does to the spren.  So now my theory:

-BAM was trapped in the King's Drop/Honor's drop (also rubies, which are the only other conjoined fabrials we know) which was then split in half, and hidden in two locations. The split did something incredibly heinous to the ecosystem of Roshar, inhibiting the Sibling and causing the deadeyes. 

I think Brandon has mentioned something along these lines relating maybe to BAM/puretons/rosharan rhythms are different now that BAM was captured, and said something like it has happened elsewhere in the Comere. Where else did we see something important to the world break and then break the magic system as a result? Elantris.

Ultimately the splitting of BAM has screwed up the Rosharn system so much that it is affecting how magic works there and any fix would require fixing the puretones/rhythms ( I don't understand the difference I am sorry) that were broken/damaged as a result of BAM's split. Could also be related to Honor's death, I am not entirely sure but I think that relates since each shared has a tone/rhythm and that seems to be important too but I don't have a tie for them yet.

I like this theory, and it how it ties in with other cosmerelogical phenomina. In fact, there's another WOB that ties into this, though it's particularly referencing the disconnect between the singers and the parshmen.

Quote

DoritoJH

Is what happened to the singers on Roshar when Ba-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned mechanically [comparable] to what happened to the Terrismen on Scadrial when they were turned into mistwraiths?

Brandon Sanderson

It's more like what happened on Sel with the Elantrians than it is like what happened with the Terrismen. I can see where you're going, but that's not the [analogy] I would've gone to.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[Tglassy]

Well, what happened in Sel was their Souls were no longer Connected to the power correctly.  Aons are natural phenomena, they are tied to the landscape.  When the landscape changed, so did the Aons.  The City was meant to funnel and harvest that power, and those Connected to it could wind up being chosen as Elantrians.  When the land changed, the Aons changed, and thus the City was no longer complete.  The Connection was there, but broken.  It was like a power cord with a chink in it.  Enough got through to start the change, but not enough to finish it.

So if that's what's happening in Roshar, then EVERYTHING was connected to BAM.  Except the Listeners.  They broke off.  And apparently she could generate Voidlight.  That meant she had a direct connection to Odium's power.  She...could create Voidlight...like teh Sibling creates Towerlight...or the Stormfather creates Stormlight...

Wow. BAM is Odium's child.  Huh.  That makes so much sense.  

Anyway, that's a side point.  BAM was like a little Odium.  She learned to touch the Spiritual Realm and draw Voidlight from it.  But...how did she learn this?  Did she, perhaps...figure out how to add Odium's song to the Pure Tones of Roshar?  Perhaps while Odium was gone, during the False Desolation, she actually managed to Connect Roshar to Odiuim's power, thus creating a new Tone.  One that she Connected to, and used to Connect to everything else.  Maybe that's why the Sibling can't hear the Tones.  She doesn't accept that Odium's Tone is one of the True Tones of Roshar.  Also, Honor's dead, but still.  

So if BAM Connected Roshar to Odium's power, then she fundamentally altered the way the world worked.  But she was the centerpoint.  She was what connected Roshar to the Tone of Odium.  That Tone then saturated the world, altering things, like the Spren.  No longer were the Spren just a mix of Honor and Cultivation.  They are now all three.  

Then BAM Connected herself to all the Singers, to grant them Forms of Power, like Odium did.  

And then...she was captured.  Cut off from everything.  But the world had already been altered.  Only, it no longer had access to Odium's power.  The third True Tone, the one that had permeated and Invested the world, was no longer present.  The Spren, who were now a mix of all three powers, could no longer hear Odium's Tone.  Which meant they were missing a vital part of themselves.  It would be like if you grafted a second heart to your body, and your body became dependant on that second heart to survive.  If it was then removed, then you are now missing something vital, something you had adapted to rely on.  For most Spren, it didn't do much.  But to those who broke their Oaths, they became Deadeyes.  They couldn't recover, because they are already missing a major portion of themsleves.  Ripping out the Nahel Bond became the final nail in the coffin.  

The Singers lost their Connection to their Cognitive selves, because they were all Connected to BAM and the True Tone of Roshar.  They no longer can hear it, no longer can think.  It was only when Odium himself came in the Everstorm and reconnected to them that they regained access.  And...the Deadeyes are responding, now.  

Maybe it isn't just that Adolin is Connecting to Maya as to why she is waking up.  Maybe she's waking up faster because of it, but the other Deadeyes were acting strange at Lasting Integrity. Maybe it's because the third True Tone of Roshar is now, feintly, being heard again.  The missing part of their souls.  

But this would mean that the Sibling was also likewise corrupted by the third True Tone.  Having Honor die and the Third Tone silenced hurt its ability to generate Towerlight.  

Freeing BAM may fix a lot of those issues, but could bring Odium even closer to Roshar, restoring that connection and all three Tones.  

Edited January 18, 2023 by Tglassy

[leftsides]

Thank you everyone for the discussion!
 

Tglassy explained my thoughts about BAM breaking things better than I could for sure! By screwing up the pure tones of Roshar, Remember the plains weren’t always shattered, so I think that makes it even more similar to what happened on Sel. 

As far as the Listeners—I think they saved themselves by rejecting Odium. They found a way to break that Connection before BAMs capture, so they didn’t lose as much as the others because they weren’t Connected to Odium any longer. I think there is evidence for this—principally the fact their songs teach never to follow their old gods again or seek forms of power. They also could not hear Odiums tone/rhythms until the voidspren restored that Connection.

—-

I just reached the point in RoW again where Veil tells Mraize she couldn’t find Restares. He explained to her that she needs storm light and says the Honorspren have some. She questioned how they got so many perfect gems in the first place and Mraize tells her they love gems and have been hunting them forever…and then he brings up the Stone of Ten Dawns, saying Honorspren believed the legends and spent lifetimes searching for it. 

I think this means they were searching for BAM. Restares is supposed to know where she is, so maybe they found her or pieces maybe…but haven’t been able to solve the problem.

 

anyway all of this makes me so excited for book 5. I need to know what’s going on with BAM!
 

 

[The cheeseman Don't you dare go Hollow!]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:06 PM, Tglassy said:

And then...she was captured.  Cut off from everything.  But the world had already been altered.  Only, it no longer had access to Odium's power.  The third True Tone, the one that had permeated and Invested the world, was no longer present.  The Spren, who were now a mix of all three powers, could no longer hear Odium's Tone.  Which meant they were missing a vital part of themselves.  It would be like if you grafted a second heart to your body, and your body became dependant on that second heart to survive.  If it was then removed, then you are now missing something vital, something you had adapted to rely on.  For most Spren, it didn't do much.  But to those who broke their Oaths, they became Deadeyes.  They couldn't recover, because they are already missing a major portion of themsleves.  Ripping out the Nahel Bond became the final nail in the coffin.  

The Singers lost their Connection to their Cognitive selves, because they were all Connected to BAM and the True Tone of Roshar.  They no longer can hear it, no longer can think.  It was only when Odium himself came in the Everstorm and reconnected to them that they regained access.  And...the Deadeyes are responding, now. 

Is it confirmed that the imprisonment of BAM is part of what caused the Deadeyes? I don't remember reading about that in SA.

[offer]

1 hour ago, phillycheesesteak said:

Is it confirmed that the imprisonment of BAM is part of what caused the Deadeyes? I don't remember reading about that in SA.

It is not confirmed but strongly implied: In the books the sibling says that her imprision harmed all those connected to Roshar and we hear from Maya that the spren did not know about deadeyes before the recreance.

It is also confirmed by WoB that there were no deadeyes before the recreance and the imprisionmant is probably the major change during this time.

Quote

Greg Andrew

Did Radiants who broke their oaths prior to the Recreance also result in deadeye spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by offer

[Elder]

I like the idea of BAM being split into 2-10 pieces of the same gem.  The only issue I have with Chirri-Chirri bonding BAM is that if all she got was the piece in the King’s drop, she has at most, half a Spren, possibly as little as a tenth. 

[Tglassy]

6 hours ago, offer said:

It is not confirmed but strongly implied: In the books the sibling says that her imprision harmed all those connected to Roshar and we hear from Maya that the spren did not know about deadeyes before the recreance.

It is also confirmed by WoB that there were no deadeyes before the recreance and the imprisionmant is probably the major change during this time.

 

I didn't actually know about that WoB.  That makes it make even MORE sense.  

[leftsides]

There are so many connections here...they just keep coming through LOL

Remember Kabsal the Ardent/ghostblood from WoK? Remember is proof of the almighty he wanted to show Jasnah? The sound vibrations creating the physical layout of the cities. In ROW, Navani looking for the anti-void light realizes she needs a sound/tone opposite of what she's looking for and basically recreates Kabsal's demonstration from WoK without referencing the cities.  

The rhythms/pure tones/etc were critical to the planet itself, when BAM was captured one of them was busted, which busted the whole planet. On Sel, the breaking of the world (unintentional WoT reference!) broke AonDor, maybe it broke the Nahel bond/surgebinding as well - or at least screwed it up enough to be so dangerous that the Radiants and their Spren CHOSE to end it so that it would not cause further damage.

and the Chiri-Chiri part is mostly tongue - in - cheek I don't think she's really a bondsmith, buuuut I think she probably does have an important role to play moving forward, especially now she can talk!

I am also interested to see how deep he ends up getting with waveforms/mathematics. sinecosinetangent. I feel like it will end up leading to some very cool tech advancements.

 

—

edit from many hours later:

Thinking about all the tie ins that could pull all this BAM stuff together into some kind of resolution has me thinking about how much more there could be. There’s still a lot we don’t know about the Unmade. Like what even were they before Odium unmade them? And why is it important that the more hyphens the more intelligent?

Sja-Anat has been important for us so far, so trying to see if I could tie her into it for a future prediction…

BAM and SjA both show independence from Odium. If BAM is split, it’s likely we can’t repair her…in Navanis experiment with trying to recombine conjoined spren using the raysium dagger it didn’t work. She could crack em open but that destroyed the spren, soo fixing Roshar likely won’t be as simple as finding BAM. Maybe SjA’s agenda is to sort of take over what BAMs role was? Like, in fixing Elantris, Raoden had to change the aon of the city. SjA plans to fix the rhythms/tones?

Edited January 21, 2023 by leftsides

[Tglassy]

It was my theory that the recreance happened because the Knights and Spren sat down together and discussed the dangers of continuing to do what they were doing vs not having a defense against a possible new Desolation.  I think they decided that it was too dangerous to keep going, but the Spren volunteered to stay behind as Shards for the people.  They were summoned to the physical realm, then the Knights broke the bond, thus trapping them in the physical realm.  It was a sacrifice.  It was so the people would still have weapons that could fight the Fused.  

But they didn't know about Deadeyes.  They thought it would hurt.  They had surely had people break oaths before.  But after BAM was gone, it didn't just hurt them.  It wasn't just a quick snap and then they'd recover.  It ripped out part of their consciousness.  I mena, Spren in the phsyical realm keep their consciousness through their bond with Radiants.  These spren are LOCKED in the physical realm, even if they can go back to the CR when unsummoned.  But the people didn't know about dismissing blades for decades, or even centuries, after the Recreance.  So they were locked in the PR, with no bond to keep their minds intact.  Maybe they didn't need the bond to keep their minds in the PR before BAM was captured?  

And Spren aren't in the CR when they're in Blade form.  And so nobody knew what had happened to them.  Everyone just knew "Oh, the Radiant Spren decided to stay in the PR."

And then they started appearing.  Can you imagine?  Maya's old friend, another Cultivation Spren maybe, hasn't seen Maya in a couple centuries.  That girl went off to be a Radiant Spren, then decided to stay behind as a blade.  Oh well.  That's her choice. Then Poof, there's Maya, back because her owner figured out how to dismiss her.  

Only HER EYES ARE GONE.  And she can't think.  And can't function.  And just follows her bonded human around in the CR.  How freaky that must have been.  

[leftsides]

11 hours ago, Tglassy said:

the Spren volunteered to stay behind as Shards for the people. 

This is an interesting idea. I had assumed that since they didn’t know they’d be deadeyes they also didn’t know they’d be stuck as shardblades in the PR, but maybe they did? 
 

[Tglassy]

27 minutes ago, leftsides said:

This is an interesting idea. I had assumed that since they didn’t know they’d be deadeyes they also didn’t know they’d be stuck as shardblades in the PR, but maybe they did? 
 

Well look at the vision of the Recreance.  The Knights lined up, in full armor, which they don't have to do, summoned their blades and dropped them.  Then they walked off.  They purposely found a place with a lot of soldiers, showed them their gear, and left it there for them.  That was a deliberate act.  And if the Spren considered it a sacrifice, as Maya did...