Double Feruchemy

[+Kelkamer]

We know that an Inquisitor who was a Misting/Mistborn prior to being spiked would have their allomantic power boosted (such as being able to piece a copper cloud). 

What if an Inquisitor was a Ferring/Feruchemist and was spiked? Do we have any indication of what that would be like? Would they be able to draw more power than they stored but not on par with a Compounder? Thoughts?

[Frustration]

Feruchemy has capped limits on how much you can store, so you can only store so much of an attribute at a time.

So I think that it would let you store more, or have less diminishing returns when tapping large amounts of attribute.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Agreed. We know that there is varying filling speed maximums based on power (part of the reason why inquisitors need to rest so long for healing), and know that I've thought of it, I have to agree with frustration about diminishing returns. Though that does bring into question greater returns. Tapping slower than you filled should last longer than you filled proportionally to the diminishing returns of tapping faster based on most differential functions, and I really think that getting stronger should tip both in your favor, instead of only 1 of them.

[Treamayne]

Allomancy is End-Positive, Feruchemy is End-Neutral.

Allomancy can increase in power when spiked with an ability you already have because it is End-Positive. 

If a Ferring received a Hemalurgic Spike of the same Ferring ability, about the only real benefit would be the ability to access stores created with the identity of the person killed to make the spike. It may be possible that some of the diminishing returns on Compression Tapping would be reduced (see WoB below). Having the doubled ability might also make it more feasible to become a Ferring Savant (which is rare without Compounding). 

Spoiler

Quote

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you [compress] it. You get 1 for 1 back, but [compress]ing the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to [compress], then spend the [compress]ed energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

*Note: The original WoB used "compound" here in the description, but that was later changed to "compressed" (in the Wiki and later Q&As) to avoid confusion with Compounding Allomancy and Feruchemy

Quote

Coppermind:

Ordinarily, when a Feruchemist is tapping an attribute at the same rate it was stored, they are able to get out exactly what they put in, for example, if they store 50% of their strength for one hour they can tap that and be at 150% of their strength for one hour. However, if the Feruchemist taps at a greater rate, then some of the attribute is lost, to facilitate the compression of the Investiture. This means that a Feruchemist who stores 50% of their strength for one hour might only be able to stay at 200% for 25 minutes, rather than a full half-hour. The more a Feruchemist compresses the attribute, the more is lost.^[4]

 

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

@Treamayne, that isn't what I was saying (though thanks for bringing up the identity bit).

 

1:1 is always maintained, but if the example is Sazed, then Marsh could only be at *2 for 20 minutes, and if Sazed was spiked he could be at *2 for 28 minutes. (numbers not calculated)

Similarly, if Sazed filled for an hour at half, he could be at 1/4 for longer than an hour, but it should increase proportionally to the difference between 1.5 and 2 based on math logic (so 80 minutes). But that means if he is spiked, then he would only get to be at 1.25 for 64 minutes, which doesn't make sense based on magic/power level logic.

[Treamayne]

16 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

@Treamayne, that isn't what I was saying (though thanks for bringing up the identity bit).

No worries

Quote

1:1 is always maintained, but if the example is Sazed, then Marsh could only be at *2 for 20 minutes, and if Sazed was spiked he could be at *2 for 28 minutes. (numbers not calculated)

Similarly, if Sazed filled for an hour at half, he could be at 1/4 for longer than an hour, but it should increase proportionally to the difference between 1.5 and 2 based on math logic (so 80 minutes). But that means if he is spiked, then he would only get to be at 1.25 for 64 minutes, which doesn't make sense based on magic/power level logic.

I was replying to the OP rather than your post, so I didn't intend any of that as a comment on your theory.

But to comment on that theory now, I sincerly doubt that a Spiked Ferring would see any benefit in in storage rates or qty. You still only have so much of an attribute to store, and you are still storing a percentage of it for a certain amount of time (maybe, possibly, you could "dig deeper" and store a higher percentage without dying). The Diminishing Returns of Feruchemy comes with Compressed Tapping. Because it costs investiture to draw an attribute faster than it was stored - if there were to be any effect on Diminishing Returns due to being Spiked, it would likely be the tapping efficiency (a bit more time at the higher Compression ratios - or less wasted Energy to reach those ratios - the effect would be the same).

Edited January 12, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[+Kelkamer]

Thanks for the replies and insights. I think I agree with @Treamayne line of reasoning and the benefit (if any) being from the diminishing returns while compressed tapping. 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

19 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I was replying to the OP rather than your post, so I didn't intend any of that as a comment on your theory.

But to comment on that theory now, I sincerly doubt that a Spiked Ferring would see any benefit in in storage rates or qty. You still only have so much of an attribute to store, and you are still storing a percentage of it for a certain amount of time (maybe, possibly, you could "dig deeper" and store a higher percentage without dying). The Diminishing Returns of Feruchemy comes with Compressed Tapping. Because it costs investiture to draw an attribute faster than it was stored - if there were to be any effect on Diminishing Returns due to being Spiked, it would likely be the tapping efficiency (a bit more time at the higher Compression ratios - or less wasted Energy to reach those ratios - the effect would be the same).

Oh, my bad.

I am pretty sure that max without dying is not based on the magic, but not all fuerochemists can get there if I remember correctly. However, the Compression rates are the other part I was mentioning, and that Extension rates should also be effected.