Chaos he/him Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 This has nothing at all to do with Alloy of Law, but I was reading the Hero of Ages annotations, and I was wondering why kandra Blessings require two spikes. Brandon said it was "for magic system cohesion reasons" but there doesn't seem to be any particular reason that we know of that makes it necessary for that to be true. So, this is all rather mysterious. I feel that if we can figure this out, we know another important piece of Hemalurgy. Anyone have any insight to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darniil he/him Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 There might be a similarity to the koloss, as they have four, don't they? Kandra have one pair normally, koloss have two pair. Other than eyes (and excluding the lynchpin), do we have any evidence that inquisitors must have paired spikes, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos he/him Posted November 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Nope, it's just the eye spikes that seem paired on Inquisitors. So the real question is, why does stealing those human attributes require two spikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmj812 Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 1) I just noticed there's no mention of the Kandra's blessings on the Kandra page in the wiki. 2) Could it be simply that the blessings convey enhancements that are too sublte and complex for one spike to be enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discipleofhoid he/him Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 1) I just noticed there's no mention of the Kandra's blessings on the Kandra page in the wiki. 2) Could it be simply that the blessings convey enhancements that are too sublte and complex for one spike to be enough? Then why the pairing for the koloss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter she/her Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 I always thought it's just that it takes that many to make them fully sentient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darniil he/him Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 I always thought it's just that it takes that many to make them fully sentient. Which also seemed weird to me. I can buy that for the Second Generation and up, but the Firsts were originally human. And we have evidence that they retained their human memories. So, when TLR changed the feruchemists, he altered them somehow so that they not only could not be fully sentient without the Blessings, but also so that they would retain their memories from when they were human? I guess that would mean that the Blessings may not contain something that grants sentience, but maybe they're more like switches in a circuit - when the circuit is open (no Blessings), there is no sentience; when the circuit is closed (Blessings), there is sentience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter she/her Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 that was the impression I got too, also Brandon says that after the kandra pulled out the spikes and got them put back in, they would retain most of their memories but some might get lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmj812 Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Wow I had a total misconception about the Koloss - I though that to make a koloss you took two people and spiked them together, and they sort of merged into a koloss. WAY wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discipleofhoid he/him Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 I always thought it's just that it takes that many to make them fully sentient. If this is true why are the Koloss less sentient then the Kandra? They have 4 spikes vs the Kandra's 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor he/him Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 If this is true why are the Koloss less sentient then the Kandra? They have 4 spikes vs the Kandra's 2. Koloss aren't truly less sentient, just more basic. Koloss are spiked humans which are already sentient. The warping from the spikes causes them to lose the higher functions of their mind. Kandra are spiked mistwraiths which are originally not sentient and the warping grants them sentience. The base creature matters when using Hemalurgy. More on topic: it seems the number of spikes required for a Kandra is a minimum of two as Ten-Soon has 4 spikes at certain points in the books. Why that is I cannot fathom...though darniil's idea makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos he/him Posted November 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 More on topic: it seems the number of spikes required for a Kandra is a minimum of two as Ten-Soon has 4 spikes at certain points in the books. Why that is I cannot fathom...though darniil's idea makes sense. Well, okay. The point is, Blessings are pairs of spikes. My question is, why two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discipleofhoid he/him Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 This doesn't answer the why 2 question but does show that the blessings always require pairs. It is just before chapter 40 in HoA Originally, we assumed that a koloss was a combination of two people into one. That was wrong. Koloss are not the melding of two people, but five, as evidenced by the four spikes needed to make them. Not five bodies, of course, but five souls. Each pair of spikes grants what the kandra would call the Blessing of Potency. However, each spike also distorts the koloss body a little more, making it increasingly inhuman. Such is the cost of Hemalurgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBobs he/him Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I just assumed it was cause every metal seemed to have a pair. Pewter/Tin, Iron/Steel, Zinc/Brass etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silus - Shard of Flame he/him Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 But the Blessings are always two of the same metal. My question regarding Blessings is whether they need to steal human attributes to form a Blessing. Could you use two steel spikes instead? Could this create a Kandra with allomancy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Folks, it seems to me that y'all are overthinking this. The real reason two are needed? Hemalurgy always comes at a cost. If a spike killed a single sentient person (taking the bit of preservation needed for sentience), and then created a single, sentient Kandra, that would be balanced. There would be no Hemalurgic decay. For Hemalurgy to always come at a cost, the number of spikes needed to be two at least. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan he/him Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Folks, it seems to me that y'all are overthinking this. The real reason two are needed? Hemalurgy always comes at a cost. If a spike killed a single sentient person (taking the bit of preservation needed for sentience), and then created a single, sentient Kandra, that would be balanced. There would be no Hemalurgic decay. For Hemalurgy to always come at a cost, the number of spikes needed to be two at least. I like that theory a lot. I'd also mention that the Blessings convey an enhancement above and beyond sentience. I seem to recall that any given Hemalurgic spike can only steal a single attribute. One for sentience, one for enhancement? As for how to convey sentience, I note that Aluminum, when used in Feruchemy, stores identity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBobs he/him Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Folks, it seems to me that y'all are overthinking this. The real reason two are needed? Hemalurgy always comes at a cost. If a spike killed a single sentient person (taking the bit of preservation needed for sentience), and then created a single, sentient Kandra, that would be balanced. There would be no Hemalurgic decay. For Hemalurgy to always come at a cost, the number of spikes needed to be two at least. ... ... /thumbsup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor he/him Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) Folks, it seems to me that y'all are overthinking this. The real reason two are needed? Hemalurgy always comes at a cost. If a spike killed a single sentient person (taking the bit of preservation needed for sentience), and then created a single, sentient Kandra, that would be balanced. There would be no Hemalurgic decay. For Hemalurgy to always come at a cost, the number of spikes needed to be two at least. That makes some sense, though I don't particularly like the wording. Based off of this statement would it be fair to assume that, due to Hemalurgic decay, a single spiked Kandra wouldn't be completely sentient and have a weaker version of the attribute in the Blessing? They would still be more intelligent than a mistwraith but be unable to use higher "brain" functions? The two spikes would then be necessary for human-level sentience and the full power of the Blessing would only be shown at two spikes. But then the question arises: why not three spikes instead of two? Hmmm... I think that happyman's idea is probably correct. Simplicity is a good thing. I believe that Human attributes are required to form Kandra as they are not sentient to begin with. (Koloss become less sentient through Hemalurgy and it is by the same mechanism.) A Hemalurgic spike grants an attribute and twists the host. The more spikes the more twisting. Human attribute spikes twist the host more because they are stealing a bit of the piece of Preservation that is inside every human and then twisting that piece of Preservation. A Feruchemical/Allomantic spike steals the ability to use a metal in F/A which inherently carries with it a piece of Preservation, but this piece is much smaller than the piece that is inside of a human. (There is more of Preservation in a human than in the ability to use Feruchemy or Allomancy, would be an easier way of stating this.) A side effect of this difference is that adding Human attribute spikes warps the intelligence of a host much more than that of a Feruchemy or Allomantic spike, which do not warp the host very much unless they are being acted on by an external force (Ruin, for the most part). If there are many Feruchemical or Allomantic spikes than the warping is severe enough to cause actual changes in the host: e.g. inquisitors. Only one or two does not do much to a (relatively) stable person (Vin, Spook before Ruin corrupted him too much) but an unstable person goes off the deep end with a spike (Zane). Therefore a Kandra gains two pieces of Preservation through the spikes, which are warped to grant sentience and a power to the Kandra (the power is the Human strength, senses, etc. which are connected to the piece of Preservation. The spike you choose decides which power goes along with the piece of Preservation.) A Koloss gains four pieces of Preservation through spikes, and are twisted by Hemalurgy, which warp the host's sentience (because it was already there) and twist the body of the host. An Inquisitor gains around ten very very small pieces of Preservation that mostly manifest as Allomantic and Feruchemical powers. However, each of these pieces are warped by Hemalurgy and decrease the empathy and control the host has, along with increasing the host's bloodlust and cruelty. (Though not by much. Marsh is pretty close to being the same person he was before he was turned into an Inquisitor. I think that most Inquisitors become incredibly bloodthirsty and cruel due to manipulation by Ruin and the lack of consequences for following those actions. Most people who become Inquisitors probably aren't very nice to begin with, so the spikes draw out the problems inherent in the host.) Edited November 13, 2011 by Thor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyring Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I always thought it was one spike that gave sentinence, and one spike that gave the increased attribute (blessing of presence, potence etc). Happyman´s make sense thou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 That makes some sense, though I don't particularly like the wording. Based off of this statement would it be fair to assume that, due to Hemalurgic decay, a single spiked Kandra wouldn't be completely sentient and have a weaker version of the attribute in the Blessing? They would still be more intelligent than a mistwraith but be unable to use higher "brain" functions? The two spikes would then be necessary for human-level sentience and the full power of the Blessing would only be shown at two spikes. But then the question arises: why not three spikes instead of two? Hmmm... I think that happyman's idea is probably correct. Simplicity is a good thing. Don't give me too much credit. After all, it is possible for Kandra to have four spikes, or two blessings. Two is just the minimum needed. And it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that the blessings give a bit more than just sentience (e.g. the blessing). For Kandra blessings, the hemalurgic decay appears to mean that you get less than a full "person" per spike, but more than half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradel he/him Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 Don't give me too much credit. After all, it is possible for Kandra to have four spikes, or two blessings. Two is just the minimum needed. And it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that the blessings give a bit more than just sentience (e.g. the blessing). For Kandra blessings, the hemalurgic decay appears to mean that you get less than a full "person" per spike, but more than half. I don't think that it's 'less than full' and 'more than half' per spike. I think it has a lot more to do with the spirit web. I think that Hemalurgic spikes 'patch' portions of one person's spirit web onto someone else. The more patches you add to a spirit-web the more changes you make. Like patching clothes. One patch isn't going to warp someone very much (I'm discounting Zane because his instability was caused by Ruin's voice in his head, not through his spike directly.) no matter how good of a charge it has. But when you have more patches then original cloth, you get a radical change like with the Koloss. It would also be subject to the kind of charge a spike or 'patch' has. Inquisitors can have dozens of Allomantic and Feruchemic spikes and still remain mostly human and relatively sane. But give one guy four 'Potency' spikes and he's warped almost beyond recognition. Kandra are basically animals, but you need at least two spikes to warp them significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baijo Gosum Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 But the Blessings are always two of the same metal. My question regarding Blessings is whether they need to steal human attributes to form a Blessing. Could you use two steel spikes instead? Could this create a Kandra with allomancy? I have been wondering this, or if a kandra with a blessing could recive a allomatic spike to gain allomancy. Another question, does the attribute have to be the same for it to be a blessing? Could a mistwrath get a human strength spike, a human emotional fortitude spike and than become a kandra with a "mixed" blessing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 I don't think that it's 'less than full' and 'more than half' per spike. I think it has a lot more to do with the spirit web. I think that Hemalurgic spikes 'patch' portions of one person's spirit web onto someone else. The more patches you add to a spirit-web the more changes you make. Like patching clothes. One patch isn't going to warp someone very much (I'm discounting Zane because his instability was caused by Ruin's voice in his head, not through his spike directly.) no matter how good of a charge it has. But when you have more patches then original cloth, you get a radical change like with the Koloss. It would also be subject to the kind of charge a spike or 'patch' has. Inquisitors can have dozens of Allomantic and Feruchemic spikes and still remain mostly human and relatively sane. But give one guy four 'Potency' spikes and he's warped almost beyond recognition. Kandra are basically animals, but you need at least two spikes to warp them significantly. This may be true; the "arithmetic" of souls may well be more complex that 1+1=2 (plenty of things are). My fundamental point is, the patches are never as effective as they were in the original context. Thus you can't get a fully sentient creature by just patching in the sentient part from another. You need at least two patches. However, it's entirely in line with Hemalurgy that you then get more than full sentience from two patches, e.g. the blessing comes along as well. We also know that it is possible to have more than two patches, which results in an unusually powerful, but not notably more intelligent, Kandra. (TenSoon was pretty intelligent to begin with, but the extra blessing didn't seem to affect that one way or the other.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradel he/him Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 This may be true; the "arithmetic" of souls may well be more complex that 1+1=2 (plenty of things are). My fundamental point is, the patches are never as effective as they were in the original context. Thus you can't get a fully sentient creature by just patching in the sentient part from another. You need at least two patches. However, it's entirely in line with Hemalurgy that you then get more than full sentience from two patches, e.g. the blessing comes along as well. We also know that it is possible to have more than two patches, which results in an unusually powerful, but not notably more intelligent, Kandra. (TenSoon was pretty intelligent to begin with, but the extra blessing didn't seem to affect that one way or the other.) Ah! I hadn't thought of that. So a non-decayed spike would most likely be somewhere in the ballpark of 60%-80% of the original power. (Whether it's an attribute, feruchemic, or allomantic spike should make no difference in power transfer.) It's impossible to give something partial sentience, it's all or nothing. If there's not enough energy (one spike), the mistwraith will only get the blessing. If there's a surplus of energy (two spikes), the mistwraith gains sentience, and a blessing proportionate to the excess energy. TenSoon might have gotten more out of the potency spikes than OreSeur did, because TenSoon was already sentient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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