How did the bands of mourning get made?

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

My assumption, after bands of mourning, was that the lord ruler had nothing to do with the creation of the bands and instead it was all kelsier or at least, kelsier with some help from spook or something. He didn't have access to feruchemic powers, but we knew little enough about what his deal was now that I was willing to brush that aside until we knew more. But after The Lost Metal, this just doesn't make much sense. So what happened then? There are two questions here- one, who made them and two, why did they keep them in the temple instead of somewhere practical?

- Kelsier made them. This just doesn't seem likely anymore. Kelsier doesn't even have access to allomancy anymore, let alone feruchemy. I don't see how he could have made the bands, unless he had to give up his powers to make them or made them and then later lost his powers (say, through an aluminum spike). But why? Why would he make them, why would he not use them himself to get his powers back if he knew where they were, and even if he can't use them why are they kept in a temple and not as a tool for the ghostbloods? It just doesn't make sense.

- Marsh made them. Maybe. Marsh does have access to both allomancy and feruchemy, and I could see harmony instructing him to make them as a failsafe and then to put them in the temple to hide them until they're desperately needed. But even marsh, with all his spikes, doesn't have all the powers. He only has 21 spikes, which is not enough to give access to the full breadth of allomancy and feruchemy. There's only one person to ever have access to all the powers of both without the bands

- The Lord Ruler made them. He was always the obvious choice. The biggest strikes against him were that 1) he did everything in his power to avoid letting anyone else and 2) that we saw him pass into the beyond in secret history so we know he's not secretly still sticking around, so someone else would have had to find and distribute them. I don't think 1) is actually an issue though. Because while yes, he wanted to make sure no one else became a fullborn, he also wanted to make sure he stayed one. The lord ruler knew about aluminum and knew about hemalurgy to know that an aluminum spike could be a serious threat to him; I think it would make sense for him to want a backup in case that happened. Someone else still would have had to distribute them though; likely kelsier or marsh. (The memory coin certainly implies kelsier, though as I mentioned earlier it makes more sense for marsh to be the one to hide them at harmony's request)

What are your thoughts on this? Who made the bands? How? Why did they make them, only to abandon them?

[alder24]

Lord Ruler didn't make them

Quote

Questioner

So I've always wondered, the Bands of Mourning, the actual spearhead that Wax uses. Was that made by the Lord Ruler or the Sovereign, or--

Brandon Sanderson

No. It was not made by the Lord Ruler. The Sovereign was involved.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

I do think not only Kelsier was involved (planing and giving the idea for creating them), but also Spook as a full Mistborn, and some full Feruchemist or multiple Ferrings.

Also, Ghostbloods still think Kelsier is Mistborn

Quote

Sethcran

When Kelsier said in The Lost Metal that he couldn't Steelpush over water, do the Ghostbloods think that Kelsier has his Allomantic powers, and is he lying to them about it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they think he has Allomantic powers still.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

So if he gave Bands to some Ghostbloods, they might realised that he is powerless. If they are not refillable, keeping them away untill he figures out how to use them and fill them up, is the best option.

Kel and Marsh do meet frequently however, he could be involved.

Quote

Questioner

How often do Kelsier and Marsh talk? Are the conversations more friendly or more confrontational?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, depends on the moment. But speaking should be seen as regular if not frequent.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

[Grubfriend He/Him]

Who is the sovereign? How could he make such a powerful artifact and do the Bands even work on Kel n his current state?

[Trusk'our he/him]

43 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

Who is the sovereign?

Kelsier is the Sovereign. I used to question this too (even had my own thread on TLM forum), but there you go.

Quote

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

Questioner

At the end of the last Wax and Wayne book, which I love, that statue that they though was the Lord Ruler. It was Kelsier.

Brandon Sanderson

That was Kelsier.

Questioner

Ok. I thought so, because the way the other thing ended with the eye, the eye thing was throwing me off and then I went and grabbed the secret thing and I was like "No that can't..."

Brandon Sanderson

That is Kelsier.

Questioner

And will we find out more in the next Wax and Wayne book or do we need to wait and find out more later?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out more in the Wax and Wayne book, really that that's going on there is foreshadowing for era 3, and for future Secret History stories if I do them. So the Wax and Wayne books are not about the return of Kelsier, but the return of Kelsier is very important for later things in the series.

 

43 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

How could he make such a powerful artifact and do the Bands even work on Kel n his current state?

I believe that Kel did help with the creation of the Bands (using his newfound in-depth knowledge of Allomancy and Feruchemy from holding the Shard of Preservation), but he needed assistance from Spook plus some other Feruchemist or Ferrings, or they could have re-used the Inquisitor spikes they talk about in SH to compensate for Spook's lack of Feruchemy.

Quote

Salt Lake City signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Questioner

So I've always wondered, the Bands of Mourning, the actual spearhead that Wax uses. Was that made by the Lord Ruler or the Sovereign, or--

Brandon Sanderson

No. It was not made by the Lord Ruler. The Sovereign was involved.

 

 

As to why they were hidden away, I think that Spook and Kel may have had a falling out of sorts, with Spook hiding the Bands of Mourning, or- more likely- perhaps Kelsier just couldn't use them and decided to hide them until he could get his situation figured out and come back for them at a later time. Or perhaps he couldn't use them and decided to hide them away for someone "worthy" to come and retreave them at a time they were truly needed, such as when Trell invaded Scadrial.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Stick The Savant]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

As to why they were hidden away, I think that Spook and Kel may have had a falling out of sorts, with Spook hiding the Bands of Mourning, or- more likely- perhaps Kelsier just couldn't use them and decided to hide them until he could get his situation figured out and come back for them at a later time. Or perhaps he couldn't use them and decided to hide them away for someone "worthy" to come and retreave them at a time they were truly needed, such as when Trell invaded Scadrial.

I find it hard to believe that Kelsier wouldn't keep the bands. He seems like the type who wouldn't want to give others ways that they could easily be more powerful than him. I figured he would hold on to them if for no other reason than to stop others from potentially use the bands against him. Perhaps he could allow trusted Ghost bloods to use them but I feel like this would be an unlikely action for him.

[Trusk'our he/him]

Just now, Stick The Savant said:

I find it hard to believe that Kelsier wouldn't keep the bands. He seems like the type who wouldn't want to give others ways that they could easily be more powerful than him. I figured he would hold on to them if for no other reason than to stop others from potentially use the bands against him. Perhaps he could allow trusted Ghost bloods to use them but I feel like this would be an unlikely action for him.

I also feel that Kelsier wouldn't want to give up such a potentially powerful tool, especially one that could be used against him.

But, if he couldn't use them (which seems likely), then perhaps he thought that keeping them hidden away in a remote temple on top of a frigid mountainscape, guarded by bo-hoodles of traps would be safer than keeping it closer, especially since he didn't have access to his Allomancy at the time and therefore wouldn't be as effective a defense should someone try to overpower him and take the Bands.

But I don't know; perhaps Spook took them and hid them away despite Kel's wishes.

[Grubfriend He/Him]

But do the Bands work on Kel, he says something about Lerasium not working on him, but he misses the power of Steelpushes so would he try to get them back? 

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

But do the Bands work on Kel, he says something about Lerasium not working on him, but he misses the power of Steelpushes so would he try to get them back? 

We don't know, he never mentioned using Bands. It was Sazed that told him Lerasium wouldn't work in his current state. And tbf, when considering ways for him to get his power back, he didn't even think about the Bands, which is weird, very weird:

Quote

Lerasium would have been the easiest way, but it seemed he would have to keep hunting. That gave him hope for himself though. Lerasium wouldn’t have worked on him, and Hemalurgy had proven ineffective on what he’d become. It held his soul and body together, but no more.
There had to be another way. He had hope. Ever, he had hope. Hope he could control the metals again. Hope he would be able to soar again. Hope he’d be able to touch the metals he could see in the world all around him.

If they didn't work, he should be thinking about that here. If they worked, then he would already have a way to gain his powers back, but he only "hopes" to gain them. 

[Light In the Darkness]

On 3/8/2023 at 9:45 AM, alder24 said:

It was Sazed that told him Lerasium wouldn't work in his current state.

My question about this would be can we trust Sazed's answer? I have several spinoff questions on this, so I'm going to make a thread for that.

On 3/8/2023 at 7:05 AM, Trusk'our said:

The Sovereign was involved

I do want to address this though; saying the sovereign was involved implies that he definitely was not the only one involved in making them. This could be almost accounted for if the creation process required the Excisors that we still don't understand; if he got the Mistborn abilities from using those with Spook to attempt to regain his powers, it would make a lot of sense. He probably would have been preparing it to be a spike, so the metalmind would be embedded and harder to steal, though not hemalurgically charged, like the ones that Miles Hundredlives had. That would explain the spearhead-shape, since melting them after charging them (required if originally bracers) would dilute the power they give. He might have then gotten the powers of a feruchemist in a second layer, and used them to prepare some initial metalminds in the south, so their metalborn-starved population could make medallions more or less indefinitely (compounder medallions). Then, the tool having served its purpose and being useless to him, he would have gone and hidden it, since it would be a route for him to be effectively Fullborn if he could get even power over nicrosil back, and the Mistborn power stored would be able to amplify his old abilities to the height of an original consumer of Lerasium if he compounded correctly. So it might make sense for him to have made it and then hidden it away, esp. since the followers he led to guard it were fanatics, the people he left in the south would be rather incompetent in the extreme cold, and no one in the north knew about them yet. It is a bit odd that he didn't go retrieve them, though, after their presence was known to the Set and many in the north, with the Southerners able to build aircraft; I would probably attribute that to deficient intelligence on the matter. It would have been relatively simple, if he could get to the location - the spearhead was out in the open, easy to grab and leave with.

[AleStaar he/him]

At this point, I think Sazed made the Bands then directed Kelsier towards helping the South and hiding the Bands.

Kelsier couldn't have made them. He has no Allomancy and can't use Feruchemical tech.

Marsh doesn't have enough spikes to encompass all 16 Allomantic and all 16 Feruchemical powers. And I doubt he gained that sort of knowledge in just 12 years, at least not without Sazed teaching him. Same for Spook, even with 12 years of Hemalurgic experimentation or Kel's insight.

The Lord Ruler was too selfish and long since passed to the Beyond by the Sovereign's time.

Sazed is the only one with the knowledge and time to make them.

[Light In the Darkness]

On 11/3/2024 at 3:21 PM, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Sazed is the only one with the knowledge and time to make them.

Interesting thought. I don’t know that he could have, though; he would have needed to make them very shortly after Ascending for that to work, and it doesn’t seem like he could have put that investiture into them; the shards don’t seem to have direct access to change the contents of metalminds, from what we’ve seen. Ruin was only able to change Sazed’s memory because it was in transit between his mind and his bracer, iirc.

[AleStaar he/him]

4 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said:

Interesting thought. I don’t know that he could have, though; he would have needed to make them very shortly after Ascending for that to work, and it doesn’t seem like he could have put that investiture into them; the shards don’t seem to have direct access to change the contents of metalminds, from what we’ve seen. Ruin was only able to change Sazed’s memory because it was in transit between his mind and his bracer, iirc.

I personally view Sazed’s Shard as something that is easy to use for large scale reality warping, but difficult to use for the subtle manipulation he needed to accomplish after the Catacendre. I think it’s easy to forget that Ruin and Preservation’s Intents encompass so much more than “death/destruction” and “protection” respectively. And that the Catacendre achieved the balance required by Harmony’s Intent.

The Catacendre Preserved humanity from annihilation. However, Sazed also made much of the world decay, break into pieces, and pass on. The cities and buildings destroyed, ash and Ashmounts wiped away, the planet’s crust getting scattered back to its former coordinates, geographical and biological alterations passing on, stones breaking apart, oceans and sand boiling, mountains crashing, and so much more of Ruin.

Depending on what Era 3 reveals about Sazed’s circumstances and plans, I could imagine the Ice Death fits Harmony’s Intent and plans more than we think. Undoing… whatever Rashek did to the Southern Scadrians, for a land without biological or geographical alterations, is too much of Preservation. But I think Sazed arranging for things in the South would be in line with his Intent. 

Now as for Sazed having the ability to create the Bands, I don’t see why he can’t. He can create normal metal and God Metals. The Bands of Mourning is just a spear filled with abnormal amounts of Investiture. He doesn’t need to change an existing spear metalmind, just create one. 

Also, I wouldn’t be so hasty to assume Shards can’t change the contents of every type of metalmind. It seems their metal-blindness considers memories in copperminds the same as text written on metal. But to be fair, that doesn’t exclude the possibility of them directly altering any other type of metalmind.