Twinborn VS 4th Ideal Radiant

[Tglassy]

We've had Mistborn vs 3rd ideal, we have Kelsior vs Kaladin.  I feel like Twinborn are different enough to warrant their own thing.  

Are there any Twinborn who would pose a challenge to a Radiant of the 4th ideal?  If so, which ones?  Compounding allowed.  

The ones that come off the top of my head are Pewter/Gold, Pewter/Steel, and Compounding either Pewter or Steel.

Also, a Chromium Compounder, since they'd Compound Fortune and also be a Leecher.  

Any others who could do the trick?  Or would these even be able to do the trick?  Y'all know my thoughts of Pewter Compounding.  I feel like a Steel Compounder would probably have the best shot.  Near infinite speed.  You don't need great strength.  Just rush at the Radiant with a tire iron in your hand outstretched beside you, then let go just before it hits.  It'll hit with the force of a freight train (you let go so the recoil doesn't rip your arm off).  And Steel Compounders are also Coinshots.  But would that be enough to get through Living Plate?  

Your thoughts?

[Frustration]

I doubt that there is a single twinborn no matter what combo that can overcome a single oath 4 radiant, regardless of order.

Plate is basically invulnerable to anything any twinborn other than pewter compounder, and those have no way to survive shardblades, not to mention surges.

[NameIess]

If we’re talking non-compounders, I think we need to establish how much time to store they have, or at least how long they’d need in order to win. I think these categories should work:

Short-term storage: 1-4 weeks

Mid-term storage: 1-12 months

long-term storage: 1-10 years

Lifetime storage: 10-60 years

 

An advantage that compounders (or any twinborn with mid-term or long-term storages) have is the ability to make Shardblade-blocking armor or weapons with charged metalminds. 

With that in mind, Pewter compounders become a lot more viable. They definitely have the strength to break Plate, and with the ability to take a hit or two (Pewter isn’t that durable, especially against Plate, so they don’t get more than that) they could definitely have a chance. 
 

Steel compounders have even more of an advantage. Even if they can’t easily break through a Radiant’s Plate in a single blow, the Radiant can’t counterattack in any way. Bleeder managed to move fast enough that bullets moved slowly in comparison, and there’s no way that a Radiant can react to that. Even if they do get in a lucky blow, invested steel is durable enough to take hits relatively easily. As long as the steel compounder has enough stored speed, the Radiant will stand no chance, and that’s without accounting for their coin shot abilities.

Edited December 28, 2022 by UnfortunatelyNamed

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Mid-term storage: 1-12 months

long-term storage: 1-10 years

Lifetime storage: 10-60 years

 

An advantage that compounders (or any twinborn with mid-term or long-term storages) have is the ability to make Shardblade-blocking armor or weapons with charged metalminds.

I doubt that mid term storage could make shardblade resistant armor.

Filling a ring took Sazed weeks WoA 484. At most you could get a bracer, it would take life time storage to get armor. And even then, the radiant would just switch to a shardmace, and combined with the power of plate kill you with blunt force trauma.

15 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Steel compounders have even more of an advantage. Even if they can’t easily break through a Radiant’s Plate in a single blow, the Radiant can’t counterattack in any way. Bleeder managed to move fast enough that bullets moved slowly in comparison, and there’s no way that a Radiant can react to that. Even if they do get in a lucky blow, invested steel is durable enough to take hits relatively easily. As long as the steel compounder has enough stored speed, the Radiant will stand no chance, and that’s without accounting for their coin shot abilities.

Even steel compounding can't maintain that speed forever, and they lack the ability to crack plate at all, let alone break it, even with their coinshot abilities.

[NameIess]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Filling a ring took Sazed weeks WoA 484. At most you could get a bracer, it would take life time storage to get armor. And even then, the radiant would just switch to a shardmace, and combined with the power of plate kill you with blunt force trauma

Agreed, if we assume that a metalmind must be full in order to effectively block Shardblades. You’d need long term storage to get more than a bracer or so. Still, it is an advantage, even if the Radiant can kill with blunt force instead.

Quote

Even steel compounding can't maintain that speed forever, and they lack the ability to crack plate at all, let alone break it, even with their coinshot abilities.

TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

We now know that Bleeder couldn’t have compounded, so she was using just a week of storage plus however much she managed to store up during the events of SoS. She is a Kandra, and could probably store faster than a normal human, but still, a compounder would have no trouble storing up massive quantities of speed. 10 times speed for an hour should be enough, and even if that takes the equivalent of a thousand hours of storing at 100%, a compounder can get that easily. 

As for breaking Plate, given a hammer of reasonable size, a high-caliber firearm, or a large enough chunk of metal to push around, that is definitely possible. With enough time, the Radiant will run out of Stormlight and eventually be killed, and there’s nothing they can do.

Edited December 28, 2022 by UnfortunatelyNamed

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

Steel Compounders would be the way to go in my mind. Even if they can't push on the Plate or Blade, having access to faster than eye speed would give them the best chance to whittle down a Radiants defenses. Plus, as @UnfortunatelyNamed has already mentioned, fully charged metalminds are capable of blocking Shardblade strikes, which all Compounders are able to create. This would be my strongest bet - a talented Steelrunner utilizing a metalmind as a bludgeon, repeatedly striking the same the Shardbearers helmet until it breaks, then decapitating them with a dagger of some kind and running the head far from the body.

Bear in mind though, this isn't taking Radiant abilities into account - Windrunners and Skybreakers could fly away, Soulcasters might be able to turn the ground around them to tar or oil, which would slow the Steelrunner. The surges would certainly make things a lot more even - I just reckon the Steel Compounder has the best chance.

@Frustration Could you please inform me where we found out that Compounders can't maintain that speed forever? I know that they can be eventually damaged by things like air resistance, but I feel they wouldn't need to be going that fast in order to overcome a Radiant's reaction times. Plus, with near-infinite speed, they could always toggle their motion on or off. 

A Pewter Compounder would be interesting, as they likely could crack the plate, but the Radiant could probably kill them with their Shardblade prior to the plate being fully decimated. The Radiant's healing is also a lot stronger. A Gold Compounder like Miles might put up a stronger fight too, since they specifically could heal from Shardblade wounds. They still wouldn't have much of a chance to hurt the Radiant, but it would make the fight more even, potentially stalemate it depending on the arena conditions. 

The really interesting combinations occur when we get into the Spiritual metals and start Compounding them. It's a lot of speculation, absolutely, but the possibilities are fascinating.

Could a Duralumin Compounder store all of their Connection, making the Radiant lose awareness of them (ala Forget-Me-Not from the X-Men)?

Could a Chromium Compounder tap so much Fortune that the Radiant can't even hit them, and then Leech the Stormlight from their plate over a long period of time?

Hard to say. We've really only scratched the surface on the capabilities of Twinborn and, honestly, some of the Radiant Surges as well. 

[NameIess]

A duraluminum compounder might be able to win by just tapping so much connection that the Radiant instantly becomes their best friend and trusts them completely.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

TLM spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

We now know that Bleeder couldn’t have compounded, so she was using just a week of storage plus however much she managed to store up during the events of SoS. She is a Kandra, and could probably store faster than a normal human, but still, a compounder would have no trouble storing up massive quantities of speed. 10 times speed for an hour should be enough, and even if that takes the equivalent of a thousand hours of storing at 100%, a compounder can get that easily. 

 

Bleeder never really went that fast for more than a few seconds.

She moved around a room for maybe three seconds, from a window to around a corner and from outside one room and into another in about the same amount of time.

The only other time she uses it she almost immediately runs out of speed.

14 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

.

@Frustration Could you please inform me where we found out that Compounders can't maintain that speed forever? I know that they can be eventually damaged by things like air resistance, but I feel they wouldn't need to be going that fast in order to overcome a Radiant's reaction times. Plus, with near-infinite speed, they could always toggle their motion on or off. 

They can run out of attribute just as easily as allomancers out of metals.

11 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

A duraluminum compounder might be able to win by just tapping so much connection that the Radiant instantly becomes their best friend and trusts them completely.

I don't think they have any Connection to the radiant to store in the first place.

10 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

A duraluminum compounder might be able to win by just tapping so much connection that the Radiant instantly becomes their best friend and trusts them completely.

15 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

As for breaking Plate, given a hammer of reasonable size, a high-caliber firearm, or a large enough chunk of metal to push around, that is definitely possible.

Giving either side additional tools just eventually turns this into Scadrial vs. Roshar.

I move to allow only the base tools, Radiant gets shards, and their pouches of Gemstones, while the Twinborn gets their metalminds, and three vials of metals.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They can run out of attribute just as easily as allomancers out of metals.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel that answers the question. When have we seen this happen with Compounders that haven't been stripped of their metalminds? Especially if they have access to vials that they can drink at superspeed.

[NameIess]

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Bleeder never really went that fast for more than a few seconds.

She moved around a room for maybe three seconds, from a window to around a corner and from outside one room and into another in about the same amount of time.

The only other time she uses it she almost immediately runs out of speed

And? Even if she stored at 100% for the entire week (impossible since she was impersonating the governor) she would have had 168 hours of speed stored up. Given that she was moving at a similar speed to bullets, she must’ve been moving at something like a hundred times faster than normal. The compounder has no need to move that fast., and has access to dramatically more speed. Again, 10 times speed for an hour is far more than enough, and that much speed can be stored in something like an arm bracer.

Quote

I don't think they have any Connection to the radiant to store in the first place.

Don’t need it, if Khriss is correct. Storing slows the speed at which you connect to people and become friends, tapping increases that speed.

Quote

Giving either side additional tools just eventually turns this into Scadrial vs. Roshar.

I move to allow only the base tools, Radiant gets shards, and their pouches of Gemstones, while the Twinborn gets their metalminds, and three vials of metals

That’s a slippery slope fallacy. I’m fully willing to allow both sides the ability to get specialized tools that take the same amount of effort to procure as a hammer strong and large enough to break Plate or a solid steel ball about the size of a bocce ball.

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

I'm sorry, but I don't feel that answers the question. When have we seen this happen with Compounders that haven't been stripped of their metalminds? Especially if they have access to vials that they can drink at superspeed.

That's like saying that because we haven't seen a twinborn kill a radiant that they can't.

6 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

And? Even if she stored at 100% for the entire week (impossible since she was impersonating the governor) she would have had 168 hours of speed stored up. Given that she was moving at a similar speed to bullets, she must’ve been moving at something like a hundred times faster than normal. The compounder has no need to move that fast., and has access to dramatically more speed. Again, 10 times speed for an hour is far more than enough, and that much speed can be stored in something like an arm bracer.

She could also use metalminds that the steelrunner had already made

6 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Don’t need it, if Khriss is correct. Storing slows the speed at which you connect to people and become friends, tapping increases that speed.

I still don't think you could immediately form a friendship, not to mention that if you were unable to continue tapping at a high enough rate they would be able to push through it.

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

That’s a slippery slope fallacy.

No it isn't, I've had it happen before.

10 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I’m fully willing to allow both sides the ability to get specialized tools that take the same amount of effort to procure as a hammer strong and large enough to break Plate or a solid steel ball about the size of a bocce ball.

Very well, the Radiant is a stormform regal who's lightning is attracted to the twinborn's metalminds(RoW 515). Or they have a Larkin who drains away the twinborn's powers. Etc.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

That's like saying that because we haven't seen a twinborn kill a radiant that they can't.

I'm moreso asking about the nature of Compounding. Of all the instances that we see, a Compounder has never drained their metalminds to the point of emptying them completely, thus running out of an attribute. Even if they did, they would likely have access to more than enough speed for one battle. 

If I may, I suppose a hypothetical, and feel free to correct me if I'm calculating incorrectly. 

The average human walking speed is roughly 5km/h. A revolver bullet (from the old west days) moves at roughly 320m/s, or 1152km/h (for ease, I'll round down to 1150km/h). We have seen Bleeder move at around this speed, as bullets move slowly to her, so I feel it's reasonable. 

If a Steel Ferring is immobile and doing nothing but storing speed, (I'm using walking speed as I feel it's a nice average between sitting still and sprinting) it would take 230 hours to do so. Assuming they were storing for 12 hour days, as they can't store while sleeping as far as I'm aware, it would take them 230 hours, or roughly 20 days, to store up the speed necessary to go 1150km/h for 1 hour of time. Now, there would be Feruchemical decay, but the rate is hard to confirm, so for arguments sake I'll say they lose half the power. 

From what we understand, a Compounder's attributes are multiplied tenfold, so redoing the numbers means that it would take a Compounder 23 hours or immobility to store the same amount of speed [1150/(5x10)]. Even if they are only storing 50% of this is only them moving at half speed for less than a week, which is decently reasonable if you wanted to fill your metalminds.

This also isn't taking into account the cumulative ability of Compounders to store and burn their own metalminds one after the other. 

The fastest human reaction times are around 0.15s. A Steelrunner moving at 1152k/hr can move across 48 metres in that time. And they could do this for 30 minutes. 

Now, Plate is incredibly durable, but think about the amount of concentrated damage a Steelrunner could inflict before the Radiant could even react, let alone how much they could do in half an hour. F=ma, after all. 

So I reiterate; I reckon that a Steel Compounder would have the best chance against a 4th Level Radiant.

Superspeed is just busted. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

We have seen Bleeder move at around this speed, as bullets move slowly to her, so I feel it's reasonable. 

We actually did not see her move at those speeds as Wax was able to shoot her during one of her fake attempts on the governor's life. If she was moving fast enough bullets were slow she wouldn't have gotten hit.

4 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

From what we understand, a Compounder's attributes are multiplied tenfold,

They aren't, they get the same amount of feruchemical power out after burning a metalmind as they would have allomantically if they had burned regular metal of the same size.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We actually did not see her move at those speeds as Wax was able to shoot her during one of her fake attempts on the governor's life. If she was moving fast enough bullets were slow she wouldn't have gotten hit..

If that's so, I do apologies. I'll have to reread the scene again. I thought the reason he was able to hit her was that he was firing out of a speed bubble.

Still, do you disagree that it would be possible to store that amount of speed?

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They aren't, they get the same amount of feruchemical power out after burning a metalmind as they would have allomantically if they had burned regular metal of the same size.

Sazed does state the following in the epilogue of the TFE "However, if the Feruchemist were also an Allomancer, he might be able to burn his own metal storages, releasing the energy within them tenfold. Mistress Vin tried to burn some of my metals earlier, but couldn't access the power. However, if you were able to make up the Feruchemical storages yourself, then burn them for the extra power..."

That's where I got the ten times number. He literally states that it would be extra power. 

[NameIess]

44 minutes ago, Frustration said:

She could also use metalminds that the steelrunner had already made

That’s a good point, but still, compounders don’t need to move at the speed of a bullet and will have access to dramatically more feruchemical stores.

Quote

Very well, the Radiant is a stormform regal who's lightning is attracted to the twinborn's metalminds(RoW 515). Or they have a Larkin who drains away the twinborn's powers. Etc.

Neither of those things are equivalent to the unlikelihood of a Twinborn bringing some sort of weapon that can break Plate. As you said, this isn’t Scadrial vs. Roshar, and as long as we set reasonable limits, it does not have to be. 

The situation we are discussing is that of a Twinborn vs a Radiant. I think it is reasonable to assume both of them are normal humans, and about average in terms of skill in combat and skill with their powers, relative to oath level for the Radiant. Anything else should be established as part of a specific scenario. (for example, one could say: I think an A-chromium F-steel Twinborn who is a savant in chromium could beat a Radiant by leeching the Stormlight via their eyeslit) Furthermore, I think it is reasonable to give the Twinborn and Radiant foreknowledge of their opponent’s abilities, and some time to formulate obvious strategies, such as bringing a chunk of metal or some similar weapon that is capable of breaking Plate for the Twinborn or a net or something for the Radiant. I’m not allowing fabrials for the same reason I wouldn’t allow charged allomantic grenades: they’re not at all part of standard equipment. If you want to allow them, I’m willing to do so in a separate discussion, and here’s my thoughts on it:

power suppressors are available to both sides, although a Radiant of the Fourth Ideal may be immune, and A-copper may interfere as well. If either side has their powers suppresed while the other does not, it’s an obvious win for the combatant with powers, which means that most Twinborn combos instantly lose if 4th ideal Radiants cannot be completely suppressed by aluminum-charged Harmonium and fabrials suppressors work effectively on them.
Other fabrials could be useful for the Radiant, but they’re highly dependent on the matchup between whatever order of Radiant and Twinborn combo we’re talking about. I don’t think anything short of a suppression fabrial is stopping a steel compounder, especially since if we’re giving full access to magic tech it doesn’t make sense to withhold guns from the Twinborn. A painrial could work if it had enough range, but aluminum suppressors would probably stop that, although it would put the Twinborn on a timer as they won’t be able to recharge their grenades.

@Werewolff Studios, while it is possible that a steel compounder could move at such speeds, you are making a lot of assumptions, and that level of speed isn’t really necessary. As I said earlier, even 10 times speed will be impossible to match even with Plate and Blade.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

7 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

 

@Werewolff Studios, while it is possible that a steel compounder could move at such speeds, you are making a lot of assumptions, and that level of speed isn’t really necessary. As I said earlier, even 10 times speed will be impossible to match even with Plate and Blade.

I agree; it's not necessary at all. And you're correct - even 10 times speed is a massive advantage. What I'm doing is estimating the upper limits of a Steel Compounder's abilities, and trying to calculate the level of power they could potentially use. 

You are right though, I'm assuming a lot on the Feruchemical decay side of things especially. We also don't know exactly when things like air-resistance will come into play, but I reckon it would still be after achieving speeds unreachable by the Radiant. 

[Tglassy]

@Frustration has an aversion to Compounding, seeming to think that a Compounder can't do the things Miles or The Lord Ruler does in the books.  

The whole point of Compounding is that a Compounder absolutely can and does store up a lot more of their attribute than a regular feruchemist of the same metal.  Not just a lot more, near inifinite levels.  At the very least levels so high as to make them effectively infinite.  They would never run out in a single day's worth of use, much less the time it took to deal with one fight.  And yes, their minds speed up as well, as Bleeder very much did see Wax and Wayne in a speed bubble, and reacted to them moving the same speed she was.  If her mind didn't speed up, then she wouldn't have been able to see them, much less fire off a gun four times in the same second (which leads me to believe the speed extends to the things you are holding as well as your body, as a gun could literally not hammer four bullets in the same second like that.)

So if a Steel Compounder stood up against a radiant, of any order, and took a rock from the ground, they could sit there and bash away at their head 80 times in the same second, which would, eventually, break the thing.  Much more so if they brought a Mace made of Steel and full to the brim with Speed.  Get wacked eighty times before you can blink, shater the plate, stick a knife in the head, leave it there until the stormlight stops glowing.  It wouldn't even take that much speed to do so.  Surely, the Steel Compounder would have enough.  Even a windrunner and Skybreaker couldn't get away, cause the Speed Compounder also has Steelpushing.  

Pewter Compounder with an equal amount of Strength and Pewter armor could potentially do it as well.  They'd be strong enough to simply grab the helmet and rip off their head.  Because despite what some say, yes, they would have an almost limitless amount of strength.  Easily Vin burning Duralumin and Pewter levels, which they could sustain for very long periods of time.  The Plate would basically be made of tissue paper.  They'd still have to worry about the blade, but with some pewter armor, they could at least defend against it.  

I'm not sure if anything else would really do much except a Chromium/Chromium twinborn, and that's only if Leaching works on plate, which we don't know. 

[Tglassy]

Sorry, double post

Edited December 29, 2022 by Tglassy

[Frustration]

26 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

If that's so, I do apologies. I'll have to reread the scene again. I thought the reason he was able to hit her was that he was firing out of a speed bubble.

He used the bubble to aim, but once a bullet leaves a speed bubble they slow down to regular time.

26 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Still, do you disagree that it would be possible to store that amount of speed?

Possible yes, with the bands of mourning Marasi moves faster than sound, even if only for part of her body. Sustainable on the other hand, no, I do not think it is possible.

26 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Sazed does state the following in the epilogue of the TFE "However, if the Feruchemist were also an Allomancer, he might be able to burn his own metal storages, releasing the energy within them tenfold. Mistress Vin tried to burn some of my metals earlier, but couldn't access the power. However, if you were able to make up the Feruchemical storages yourself, then burn them for the extra power..."

That's where I got the ten times number. He literally states that it would be extra power. 

Sazed is also talking about a theoretical hack that he has never used. When Brandon explained it later he said that compounding is using Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy. And as Allomancy does not become stronger, there cannot be a multiplicative effect.

21 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Neither of those things are equivalent to the unlikelihood of a Twinborn bringing some sort of weapon that can break Plate. As you said, this isn’t Scadrial vs. Roshar, and as long as we set reasonable limits, it does not have to be.

 You are correct that was crossing a line, my apologies.

21 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I’m not allowing fabrials for the same reason I wouldn’t allow charged allomantic grenades: they’re not at all part of standard equipment. If you want to allow them, I’m willing to do so in a separate discussion, and here’s my thoughts on it:

Considering that fabrials are Rosharan equivalent to conventional technology I would say that allowing one side guns and other such technology, while depriving the other of theirs to be unbalanced, unless you wish to allow both sides access to the same technology.

Surge fabrials of course being the exception.

4 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

@Frustration has an aversion to Compounding, seeming to think that a Compounder can't do the things Miles or The Lord Ruler does in the books.

Um, no?

Everything we see in the books is completely possible with linear compounding. In fact it makes the events of the books make more sense, such as how TLR didn't simply tap speed and run down to get his bracers, or simply kill Vin the moment she started pushing on them.

5 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

@Frustration

The whole point of Compounding is that a Compounder absolutely can and does store up a lot more of their attribute than a regular feruchemist of the same metal.  

Yeah, by turning feruchemy, a net neutral system, into effectively Allomancy, a net positive system.

7 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

@Frustration Not just a lot more, near inifinite levels.  

Source?

8 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

@Frustration much less fire off a gun four times in the same second (which leads me to believe the speed extends to the things you are holding as well as your body, as a gun could literally not hammer four bullets in the same second like that.)

We have no evidence saying it was the same second, as long as the first gunshot was still ringing in their ears, and surprise lasted the effect would have been the same.

10 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

@Frustration So if a Steel Compounder stood up against a radiant, of any order, and took a rock from the ground, they could sit there and bash away at their head 80 times in the same second, which would, eventually, break the thing.  Much more so if they brought a Mace made of Steel and full to the brim with Speed.  Get wacked eighty times before you can blink, shater the plate, stick a knife in the head, leave it there until the stormlight stops glowing.  It wouldn't even take that much speed to do so.  Surely, the Steel Compounder would have enough.  Even a windrunner and Skybreaker couldn't get away, cause the Speed Compounder also has Steelpushing.  

Shardplate either cracks, or takes no damage. And considering that head sized stones thrown by slings by warform parshendi only sometimes caused cracks I'm going to say banging a rock on them would be ineffective.

And in the air steel compounders only have faster reaction times, as it's all muscle speed.

13 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

@Frustration 

I'm not sure if anything else would really do much except a Chromium/Chromium twinborn, and that's only if Leaching works on plate, which we don't know. 

Living plate does not require stormlight to function (as seen by how Jasnah continues to move around in hers without light) and that it would insulate the wearer to the same degree as aluminum you could not.

Spoiler

FirstRyder

Could Aluminum be used to protect a Surgebinder from a larkin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

havoc_mayhem

Would a larkin be able to steal Stormlight from a surgebinder wearing Shardplate? Any comments on whether Shardplate or aluminium would be more effective protection?

Brandon Sanderson

Getting through both would be relatively equal--with the problem being that Shardplate is powered by investiture, which the larkin could feed on. So aluminum is better in that specific case.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182/#e3864

 

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

This statement is patently false and explicitly refuted in the books.  I don't know why you keep saying this.  

Were?

I would like to have a quote, from either Brandon or a compounder that says that they get more power when compounding then when burning allomantically.

[NameIess]

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Considering that fabrials are Rosharan equivalent to conventional technology I would say that allowing one side guns and other such technology, while depriving the other of theirs to be unbalanced, unless you wish to allow both sides access to the same technology.

Surge fabrials of course being the exception.

I agree. Either limited technology that either side could access extremely easily, such as standard equipment and limited preparation for the battle, as in my example of a heavy metal ball for the Twinborn and a net to limit a steel compounder’s movement for the Radiant, or standard technology for both sides.

[Tglassy]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He used the bubble to aim, but once a bullet leaves a speed bubble they slow down to regular time.

Possible yes, with the bands of mourning Marasi moves faster than sound, even if only for part of her body. Sustainable on the other hand, no, I do not think it is possible.

Sazed is also talking about a theoretical hack that he has never used. When Brandon explained it later he said that compounding is using Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy. And as Allomancy does not become stronger, there cannot be a multiplicative effect.

 You are correct that was crossing a line, my apologies.

Considering that fabrials are Rosharan equivalent to conventional technology I would say that allowing one side guns and other such technology, while depriving the other of theirs to be unbalanced, unless you wish to allow both sides access to the same technology.

Surge fabrials of course being the exception.

Um, no?

Everything we see in the books is completely possible with linear compounding. In fact it makes the events of the books make more sense, such as how TLR didn't simply tap speed and run down to get his bracers, or simply kill Vin the moment she started pushing on them.

Yeah, by turning feruchemy, a net neutral system, into effectively Allomancy, a net positive system.

Source?

We have no evidence saying it was the same second, as long as the first gunshot was still ringing in their ears, and surprise lasted the effect would have been the same.

Shardplate either cracks, or takes no damage. And considering that head sized stones thrown by slings by warform parshendi only sometimes caused cracks I'm going to say banging a rock on them would be ineffective.

And in the air steel compounders only have faster reaction times, as it's all muscle speed.

Living plate does not require stormlight to function (as seen by how Jasnah continues to move around in hers without light) and that it would insulate the wearer to the same degree as aluminum you could not.

  Hide contents

FirstRyder

Could Aluminum be used to protect a Surgebinder from a larkin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

havoc_mayhem

Would a larkin be able to steal Stormlight from a surgebinder wearing Shardplate? Any comments on whether Shardplate or aluminium would be more effective protection?

Brandon Sanderson

Getting through both would be relatively equal--with the problem being that Shardplate is powered by investiture, which the larkin could feed on. So aluminum is better in that specific case.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182/#e3864

 

 

 

 

 

Were?

I would like to have a quote, from either Brandon or a compounder that says that they get more power when compounding then when burning allomantically.

Miles.  Miles Hundredlives.  Miles Hundredlives who stored enough Healing to blow himself up with a grenade whenver he flet like it.  Who literally never stopped tapping health.  For years.  He was literally impossible to kill until they removed his metalminds.  And even then, my assumption is they missed one and had to shoot him dozens of times to kill him.  With his metalminds, he was invulnerable.  He had more health stored in him than Wayne ever had in his entire life.  He had more health stored than any other feruchemist ever, perhaps all of them combined.  WITH GOLD.  Gold is Expensive.  Which means he HAD to be getting a good deal of health every time he compounded to make it work.  Otherwise it isn't cost effective to keep it going, particularly on a Roughs lawman salary.  

Wayne talks about storing health, and it sucks.  He has to store for weeks just to get enough to recover from a couple bullets.  He looked at the unkeyed gold bracer like it's a treasure trove.  But Miles NEVER STOPS TAPPING.  He doesn't have to.  He can just tap health forever and ever, compounding every now and then to fill his metalminds back up, while never actually having to make himself weaker.  Ever.  

If that isn't proof that Compounders literally get more out of their attribute than they put in, I don't know what is, man.  TLR was overconfident.  He was absolutely sure in his power.  He didn't have to run.  He'd been attacked hundreds of times and always made it through.  He'd been decapitated, for crying out loud.  What did he have to fear from this puny mistborn?  Hell, he was probably glad for the excuse to do something.  

And if his bracers were really the Bands of Mourning, then they could very well have been his only metalminds.  That's really the only thing that makes sense, anyway.  

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I agree. Either limited technology that either side could access extremely easily, such as standard equipment and limited preparation for the battle, as in my example of a heavy metal ball for the Twinborn and a net to limit a steel compounder’s movement for the Radiant, or standard technology for both sides.

Fair enough.

I'd think that in order for materials to be heavy enough to actually inflict damage, they might be too heavy for a coinshot to be able to manipulate without pushing themselves.

9 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Miles.  Miles Hundredlives.  Miles Hundredlives who stored enough Healing to blow himself up with a grenade whenver he flet like it.  

Vin had enough pewter to cave someone's head in whenever she felt like it.

10 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

WITH GOLD.  Gold is Expensive.  Which means he HAD to be getting a good deal of health every time he compounded to make it work.  Otherwise it isn't cost effective to keep it going, particularly on a Roughs lawman salary.

He mentioned how expensive the gold was for him, but he was willing to pay for it anyway. And considering how high some bounties got and how effective he was, along with how little gold you actually need in order to burn he could have easily paid for it.

12 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Wayne talks about storing health, and it sucks.  He has to store for weeks just to get enough to recover from a couple bullets.  He looked at the unkeyed gold bracer like it's a treasure trove.  But Miles NEVER STOPS TAPPING.  He doesn't have to.  He can just tap health forever and ever, compounding every now and then to fill his metalminds back up, while never actually having to make himself weaker.  Ever.  

Vin pretty much never stopped burning pewter. That's all a gold metalmind is to Miles, an allomantic metal that gives health.

13 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

He'd been attacked hundreds of times and always made it through.  He'd been decapitated, for crying out loud. 

He was lying

Spoiler

Arabas

The question is about the Lord Ruler's death.  He is basically killed because Vin was able to remove his Feruchemy storage bracelets thus depriving him of his stored youth and strength correct?  Once he didn't have access to these she could simply kill him like a normal man.Now on page 627 about the 3rd paragraph down the Lord Ruler states " I've survived burning and beheadings.  I've been stabbed and sliced, crushed and dismembered." (I also think this is also reference somewhere else in the book that I could not locate)If all it took to drain the Lord Ruler of his power was to remove access to his Feruchemy items wouldn't he have died if he was dismembered?  Remove the storage devices from the trunk of the body and he would die?

Peter Ahlstrom

I asked Brandon about this once, and I'm pretty sure he said the beheading survival part was a lie/exaggeration. I'd have to go back and check my notes.

The Lord Ruler would have reason to want people to believe he had survived beheadings and being burned to ash.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/291/#e11199

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And if his bracers were really the Bands of Mourning, then they could very well have been his only metalminds.  That's really the only thing that makes sense, anyway.  

Even if they were, with f-zinc and steel as powerful as the exponential growth model predicts, he would have noticed and had time to act.

[Tglassy]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Vin had enough pewter to cave someone's head in whenever she felt like it.

What...does this have to do with anything?

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

He mentioned how expensive the gold was for him, but he was willing to pay for it anyway. And considering how high some bounties got and how effective he was, along with how little gold you actually need in order to burn he could have easily paid for it.

Do you...even read your own posts?  How little he had to burn?  Don't you think that, maybe, he only had to burn a little cause, i don't know, Compounding COMPOUNDS?

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Vin pretty much never stopped burning pewter. That's all a gold metalmind is to Miles, an allomantic metal that gives health.

Yes...but in MUCH GREATER QUANTATITES than what he put in to it.  

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

 

Even if they were, with f-zinc and steel as powerful as the exponential growth model predicts, he would have noticed and had time to act.

Yes...but only if he's tapping it, and why would he?  He had already won.  He'd been winning for thousands of years.  How was he supposed to know this girl would be able to do something like that?  She caught him by surprise.  

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'd think that in order for materials to be heavy enough to actually inflict damage, they might be too heavy for a coinshot to be able to manipulate without pushing themselves.

Adolin brought a war hammer to Shadesmar in order to fight Plate, didn’t he? Or at least he mentioned using it to crack Plate. Given a solid steel ball of similar size to a bocce ball like I suggested, they should be able to generate the necessary force without affecting thenselves too much.

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

What...does this have to do with anything?

Because there is no difference between duralumin burning allomantic metals and tapping large amounts of feruchemical trait. Other than feruchemy losing some overall power.

10 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Do you...even read your own posts?  How little he had to burn?  Don't you think that, maybe, he only had to burn a little cause, i don't know, Compounding COMPOUNDS?

How did I know you would make that comment?

Allomancy draws a large amount of power from tiny shavings of metal. You only need to burn a few small beads for several hours of power.

10 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Yes...but in MUCH GREATER QUANTATITES than what he put in to it.  

That is directly proportional to the amount of metal burned.

10 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Yes...but only if he's tapping it, and why would he?  He had already won.  He'd been winning for thousands of years.  How was he supposed to know this girl would be able to do something like that?  She caught him by surprise.  

Because he just did, moving faster to cross the entire room.

And he did have other metalminds, ones that don't pierce his skin.

@UnfortunatelyNamed

Quote

Adolin brought a war hammer to Shadesmar in order to fight Plate, didn’t he? Or at least he mentioned using it to crack Plate. Given a solid steel ball of similar size to a bocce ball like I suggested, they should be able to generate the necessary force without affecting thenselves too much

He mentioned plate, but I doubt it was shardplate, as that can't exist in the CR, at least as far as they know. It would be highly effective against steel plate though.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Frustration