Healing and the cognitive

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Are emotional attacks cognitive in nature?  

 

We know that your healing is based on your cognitive self and how you view yourself.  

If a mistborn were to sweep away all positive thoughts of yourself and then ramp up negativity and hopelessness do you think damage might stick to a radiant better?   

Kaladins scars won't heal... not because he doesn't think he wants them too... its because inside he won't let them.  

We know radiants are mostly broken.  And I can say with a strong certainty that anyone who has watched / dealt death is going to have issues.  (I remember hitting a cat with my car and it was my breaking point.  All of the other crap and people I watched die but had to go help the next person over and over again boiled up in a matter of moments. I was alone and in a position where I just pulled over and had my little meltdown before getting back on the road and moving on again.)  It is there for everyone of the radiants whether they appear broken or not.  

If a mistborn dug all of that most negative feelings out at once and stabbed a radiant while soothing away every potentially positive feeling at once do you think the stormlight would actually be able to heal them?  

They are healed based on their cognitive selves.  And it appears that emotional allomancy is very much attacking that cognitive self.  

Obviously stormlight is not the only ingredient in the healing power of radiants.  We know leeching works but how best do you take away the other ingredient? What is that other ingredient and which magic mashups would you use to attack it?

 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Are emotional attacks cognitive in nature?  

I believe that they are, at least, an Allomancer using emotional Allomancy is influencing another within the Cognitive Realm.

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If a mistborn were to sweep away all positive thoughts of yourself and then ramp up negativity and hopelessness do you think damage might stick to a radiant better?   

Kaladins scars won't heal... not because he doesn't think he wants them too... its because inside he won't let them.  

Hmm, this is an intriguing thought. My gut instinct is no, as fresh damage is less Cognitively deep then something like Kaladin's scars are. If he'd been a Radiant when he'd been branded, those scars would've healed instantly. 

15 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We know radiants are mostly broken.  And I can say with a strong certainty that anyone who has watched / dealt death is going to have issues.  (I remember hitting a cat with my car and it was my breaking point.  All of the other crap and people I watched die but had to go help the next person over and over again boiled up in a matter of moments. I was alone and in a position where I just pulled over and had my little meltdown before getting back on the road and moving on again.)  It is there for everyone of the radiants whether they appear broken or not.  

That sounds rough mate, I hope that you're doing alright. 

In terms of this discussion, we should consider that the Nahel Bond and their spren will play some part in this. Most Radiants are born from a place of trauma, absolutely, but the longer that one is Radiant the longer they have to confront and deal with that trauma. Shallan's a good example of this - she has to confront her truths in order to progress. Therefore, I'd surmised that the higher Oath Radiants would be better at enduring an attack of this kind.

From a magical perspective, the higher Radiants's broken spiritwebs are also healed due to the Nahel Bond, making them better Investiture containers. That's why their Stormlight usage becomes more efficient too. 

21 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If a mistborn dug all of that most negative feelings out at once and stabbed a radiant while soothing away every potentially positive feeling at once do you think the stormlight would actually be able to heal them?  

They are healed based on their cognitive selves.  And it appears that emotional allomancy is very much attacking that cognitive self.  

I feel this would likely depend on the severity of the wound. Bear in mind that the healing in the cosmere is filtered by the Cognitive, but is drawn from the Spiritual (perfect) self. While the Cognitive shapes the healing, anything that is life-threatening generally heals automatically, as the Spiritual version of you very much wants to be alive. We see this in Mistborn when Vin unconsciously uses Pewter and in WOK when Kaladin breathes in Stormlight after the Highstorm. 

Now, could you ramp up an emotional state to the point where the Radiant is suicidal so they don't heal the damage themselves? I feel like that may have some potential, but I also feel it would likely take more subtle Allomancy over a longer period of time. 

29 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Obviously stormlight is not the only ingredient in the healing power of radiants.  We know leeching works but how best do you take away the other ingredient? What is that other ingredient and which magic mashups would you use to attack it?

I'll have to think on this - it's a good point though!

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

11 hours ago, Werewolff Studios said:

I believe that they are, at least, an Allomancer using emotional Allomancy is influencing another within the Cognitive Realm.

Hmm, this is an intriguing thought. My gut instinct is no, as fresh damage is less Cognitively deep then something like Kaladin's scars are. If he'd been a Radiant when he'd been branded, those scars would've healed instantly. 

That sounds rough mate, I hope that you're doing alright. 

In terms of this discussion, we should consider that the Nahel Bond and their spren will play some part in this. Most Radiants are born from a place of trauma, absolutely, but the longer that one is Radiant the longer they have to confront and deal with that trauma. Shallan's a good example of this - she has to confront her truths in order to progress. Therefore, I'd surmised that the higher Oath Radiants would be better at enduring an attack of this kind.

From a magical perspective, the higher Radiants's broken spiritwebs are also healed due to the Nahel Bond, making them better Investiture containers. That's why their Stormlight usage becomes more efficient too. 

I feel this would likely depend on the severity of the wound. Bear in mind that the healing in the cosmere is filtered by the Cognitive, but is drawn from the Spiritual (perfect) self. While the Cognitive shapes the healing, anything that is life-threatening generally heals automatically, as the Spiritual version of you very much wants to be alive. We see this in Mistborn when Vin unconsciously uses Pewter and in WOK when Kaladin breathes in Stormlight after the Highstorm. 

Now, could you ramp up an emotional state to the point where the Radiant is suicidal so they don't heal the damage themselves? I feel like that may have some potential, but I also feel it would likely take more subtle Allomancy over a longer period of time. 

I'll have to think on this - it's a good point though!

In comparing healing I think every abilities process is slightly different.  

Gold is very active.  You choose how much and how fast.  Compounding simply let's you pull off those feats 10 fold.  

Stormlight is so passive.  If you hold stormlight your body is trying to achieve perfection.  

Perhaps the most active and the type of healing that cares the least about a persons cognitive and spiritual self would be a divine breath.  

Taking Kaladin as our control do you think any of these would power past his issues to heal his scars?   

Would divine breath perfect his body to what a divinely intervened upon body would be according to cosmeric natural law?  

Do you think compounding gold would bypass that view?   Perhaps part of a gold compounders power is the fact that A-gold keeps them closer and more intune and aware of what their spiritual has or could have been?  Kaladin with the ability to see his past self or potential past selves could have a different Cognitive and spiritual view of himself?  

With stormlight it would appear that healing is a total byproduct of your body being constantly kept at its spiritual / cognitive peak.  Again some form of emotional trauma should have more impact on stormlight than other methods just based on the passive nature of it.  Perhaps not to the extent of negating it but slowing it down would certainly be enough of an added danger to the radiant to make it a viable option.  

 

[StanLemon]

Divine Breath is hands down the best healing we've seen in the Cosmere. It was not only able to heal a tongue that was cut out at an early enough age that there is no realistic way Susebron could have had one as as part his self perception and was able to give him the ability to use it naturally for speech. This bypassed self perception and went straight to the ideal. I could see it healing Kaladin's scars.

Another form of healing that seems to bypass self perception is AonDor. It seems that the correct forms are more determinate than any kind of Cognitive aspects

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In comparing healing I think every abilities process is slightly different.  

Gold is very active.  You choose how much and how fast.  Compounding simply let's you pull off those feats 10 fold.  

Stormlight is so passive.  If you hold stormlight your body is trying to achieve perfection.  

With stormlight it would appear that healing is a total byproduct of your body being constantly kept at its spiritual / cognitive peak.  Again some form of emotional trauma should have more impact on stormlight than other methods just based on the passive nature of it.  Perhaps not to the extent of negating it but slowing it down would certainly be enough of an added danger to the radiant to make it a viable option.  

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Enough emotional trauma would likely slow the healing, especially if it wasn't life-threatening. There's a sign near the beginning of ROW with Kaladin and Moash that would support this in a way as well (won't spoil it in case you haven't read it).

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think compounding gold would bypass that view?   Perhaps part of a gold compounders power is the fact that A-gold keeps them closer and more intune and aware of what their spiritual has or could have been?  Kaladin with the ability to see his past self or potential past selves could have a different Cognitive and spiritual view of himself?  

Hmm, potentially. I'd imagine being able to see your past would help shape, and likely strengthen, your Cognitive ideal. Plus, from what we know of Miles Hundredlives, you could likely become a Feruchemical savant with the metal as well, which warps your spiritweb, likely making it stronger too.

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 Would divine breath perfect his body to what a divinely intervened upon body would be according to cosmeric natural law?  

As @StanLemon said, the Devine Breath is the cosmere's A-plus healing magic and goes directly to the Spiritual Realm. Like AonDor, it's also a given healing, meaning that the being doing the healing is going to have their own Cognitive ideal of the person being healed. This likely strengthens the healing overall, as the healer's Intent would be something like 'heal this being completely". 

I think I've said the word heal too much...

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

30 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Enough emotional trauma would likely slow the healing, especially if it wasn't life-threatening. There's a sign near the beginning of ROW with Kaladin and Moash that would support this in a way as well (won't spoil it in case you haven't read it).

Hmm, potentially. I'd imagine being able to see your past would help shape, and likely strengthen, your Cognitive ideal. Plus, from what we know of Miles Hundredlives, you could likely become a Feruchemical savant with the metal as well, which warps your spiritweb, likely making it stronger too.

As @StanLemon said, the Devine Breath is the cosmere's A-plus healing magic and goes directly to the Spiritual Realm. Like AonDor, it's also a given healing, meaning that the being doing the healing is going to have their own Cognitive ideal of the person being healed. This likely strengthens the healing overall, as the healer's Intent would be something like 'heal this being completely". 

I think I've said the word heal too much...

It is almost an icky word when you want to set up suspense for your characters.  Like I have said in other posts...  

Healing is an awesome ability for antagonists.

I don't really think it is interesting or fun to read about from a protagonists view in fantasy writing.  

And while I pride myself as an active member of teams trying to heal others irl... in fantasy I see it more as interesting for the fact that it needs to be overcome than anything. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

It is almost an icky word when you want to set up suspense for your characters.  Like I have said in other posts...  

Healing is an awesome ability for antagonists.

I don't really think it is interesting or fun to read about from a protagonists view in fantasy writing.  

A fair point. Too much healing can be a lot, especially when it's not limited. Still, I actually like it as a means of increasing tension and also showcasing skill. 

As long as healing comes from a limited resource, you can show your antagonists doing consistent damage to the protagonist without a fear of narratively killing them. Think of the classic Stormtroopers missing a lot of their shots, which can either make the hero's seem incredibly lucky or the bad guy's rather inept.

If the hero gets hit a bunch of times, and then uses up all of their healing to not bleed out, the stakes are raised a lot more. We, as the audience, know the bad guy's can hit the hero, and that the next time it happens they're out of health juice. That can certainly up the suspense.

Of course, the real thing you want to do is tell stories which create tension and suspense that healing can't solve. Wolverine can heal from practically anything, but he's still interesting to read about as the main conflicts he faces can't be fixed by his powers. It's also like Superman - the best stories are the one's that show his humanity and throw him in situations that his powers can't solve. 

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

Healing is based on the Spiritual self trying to align the Physical self to it. This alignment filters through the cognitive, and damage that has been sustained further in the past is harder to heal as the Cognitive, and Spiritual, accept that wound. But a wound sustained like a stabbing recently is going to heal, most likely, regardless of the emotional impact of the Allomancy, because the cognitive self is still aligned with what it was before, regardless of the emotions, and the spiritual is definitely the same, and the effect of the cognitive here shouldn’t be enough to stop healing. And even some wounds that have been there for longer, like Lopen’s lost arm, can heal so long as the Spiritual self sees that as the true form with enough Intent, and overpowers the cognitive.

[cometaryorbit]

The difference between external healing like Divine Breath fixing Susebron's tongue, vs internal healing like Sazed's Gold leaving him still an eunuch* or Kaladin's Stormlight not fixing his scars, is definitely interesting.

There seem to be odd limits, too. I get that inborn things don't heal from internal effects, nor do old injuries that the person accepts... but it's not clear to me why Venli's mother's dementia(?) is healed by Stormlight but Teft's addiction to firemoss is not. Both are acquired damage, not inborn, surely?

*I actually wonder if this is the original, out of world reason cosmere healing has the self-perception limit. If Feruchemists automatically healed old wounds, they'd stop being eunuchs and would have way more trouble hiding as stewards, especially if the healing happened young enough for their growth to be normal (rather than super tall with long limbs like Sazed).