NameIess Posted December 20, 2022 Posted December 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: I have no reason your assumption would work, so why should I assume that it is correct? Is there a reason that your assumption would work? 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: The soulcast I am proposing is nothing other than a hollow chunk of stone. Which is more advanced than anything we've seen Jasnah do, or any Soulcaster do quickly. 7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Kaladin did, I don't think we have anything on Shallan. And what's special about falling? I don't know, but Stormlight doesn't block punches. 7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: They can heal from multiple leathal wounds on a single pouch, and duralumin would burn that down to single digit minutes fast. They can heal from being mashed into a paste with a single pouch? Kaladin almost ran out after getting stabbed a few times. 9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Even with duralumin pewter their body would give out before the stone did. Not likely. Vin managed to rip a massive gate off of its hinges and then swing it around a courtyard, without using duraluminum or ripping herself in half. With duraluminum pewter, stone will be no problem.
Frustration Posted December 20, 2022 Posted December 20, 2022 26 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Is there a reason that your assumption would work? No more than yours. 26 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Which is more advanced than anything we've seen Jasnah do, or any Soulcaster do quickly. No it really isn't. The barracks are larger, more complex, and can be done by fabrials, which are weaker and more restrictive than radiants. 26 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: I don't know, but Stormlight doesn't block punches. And this is closer to a punch or a fall? 26 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: They can heal from being mashed into a paste with a single pouch? Kaladin almost ran out after getting stabbed a few times. They wouldn't be mashed into paste in the first place. 26 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Not likely. Vin managed to rip a massive gate off of its hinges and then swing it around a courtyard, without using duraluminum or ripping herself in half. With duraluminum pewter, stone will be no problem. That is multiple times more force than Vin used breaking that dudes head in, and she passed out for(I don't remember how long but it was a minimum of several hours). Even assuming that all they did was pass out the Radiant will recover first and kill them.
NameIess Posted December 20, 2022 Posted December 20, 2022 Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said: No more than yours. Which assumption is simpler? 2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: No it really isn't. The barracks are larger, more complex, and can be done by fabrials, which are weaker and more restrictive than radiants. Fabrial Soulcasters that as we have seen often work in groups, and take time to Soulcast stuff. 2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: And this is closer to a punch or a fall? Punch. The Radiant is smashed against wall, then their Shardblade hits them and crushes them into it further. 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: That is multiple times more force than Vin used breaking that dudes head in, and she passed out for(I don't remember how long but it was a minimum of several hours). Even assuming that all they did was pass out the Radiant will recover first and kill them. And how did Vin survive moving the gate? That's multiple times more force than she used breaking that dude's head in, and she was fine afterwards.
Frustration Posted December 20, 2022 Posted December 20, 2022 Just now, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Which assumption is simpler? Mine, and it also has similarities to other magic systems like Tzai blows. 1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Fabrial Soulcasters that as we have seen often work in groups, and take time to Soulcast stuff. That are more limited and weaker, so radiants could make it alone, and with practice. 2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Punch. The Radiant is smashed against wall, then their Shardblade hits them and crushes them into it further. They experience a lot of kinetic energy that wouldn't harm them, until they hit an unmovable object. That's a fall. 2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: And how did Vin survive moving the gate? That's multiple times more force than she used breaking that dude's head in, and she was fine afterwards. Was it more force? How large was the gate, what was the gate made of, did she slowly bring herself to a stop, or was it instantaneous?
NameIess Posted December 20, 2022 Posted December 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Mine, and it also has similarities to other magic systems like Tzai blows. My explanation is: Soulcasting Stormlight cost is based on mass, because mass is what a Soulcaster is transforming. Your explanation is, as far as I can tell: Soulcasting Stormlight cost is based on volume, because Soulcasters perceive objects with higher volume as being more difficult to soulcast. The energy to actually transform the object in the physical realm comes from the spiritual realm. Is my summary of your explanation correct? 11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: That are more limited and weaker, so radiants could make it alone, and with practice. I agree that Radiants will be better at soulcasting, but even if they're 10 times better than a fabrial soulcaster, the Mistborn will have time to dodge. 13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: They experience a lot of kinetic energy that wouldn't harm them, until they hit an unmovable object. That's a fall. They hit a wall, then are hit by a wall. Not a fall. Renarin was crushed by a Thunderclast multiple times, and he had a perpendicularity's worth of Stormlight. Beyond that, Windrunners are the only people we've seen protected from falls, are they not? 14 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Was it more force? How large was the gate, what was the gate made of, did she slowly bring herself to a stop, or was it instantaneous? Description from WoA: Spoiler The city gate suddenly lurched, its hinges twisting. . . . The massive wooden portal burst free from the wall, Pulled by Vin. Such power, Sazed though numbly. She must be Pulling on something behind herself-but, that would mean that poor Vin is being yanked between two weights as heavy as that door. And yet, she did it, lifting the gate door with a heave, Pulling it toward herself. The huge hardwood gate crashed through the koloss ranks, scattering bodies. Vin twisted expertly in the air, Pulling herself to the side, swinging the gate to the side as if it were tethered to her by a chain. Koloss flew in the air, bones cracking, sprayed like splinters before the enormous weapon. In a single sweep, Vin cleared the entire courtyard. The Well of Ascension, Ch. 53, P. 683 Again, that was without Duraluminum Pewter.
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 Just now, UnfortunatelyNamed said: My explanation is: Soulcasting Stormlight cost is based on mass, because mass is what a Soulcaster is transforming. Your explanation is, as far as I can tell: Soulcasting Stormlight cost is based on volume, because Soulcasters perceive objects with higher volume as being more difficult to soulcast. The energy to actually transform the object in the physical realm comes from the spiritual realm. Is my summary of your explanation correct? Close. I believe that the change that the Soulcaster does is entirely in the Cognitive/spiritual realms, and that results in a change in the physical realm, which is not entirely perfect. 2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: I agree that Radiants will be better at soulcasting, but even if they're 10 times better than a fabrial soulcaster, the Mistborn will have time to dodge. Why would they dodge? Eveb with electrum the only shadows that stop moving are the ones to the side. Staying where you are seems safe. 4 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: .They hit a wall, then are hit by a wall. Not a fall. Renarin was crushed by a Thunderclast multiple times, and he had a perpendicularity's worth of Stormlight. Beyond that, Windrunners are the only people we've seen protected from falls, are they not? The shield I would agree with, but the wall would totally be absorbed. And Shallan isn't a Windrunner. 5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Description from WoA: Reveal hidden contents The city gate suddenly lurched, its hinges twisting. . . . The massive wooden portal burst free from the wall, Pulled by Vin. Such power, Sazed though numbly. She must be Pulling on something behind herself-but, that would mean that poor Vin is being yanked between two weights as heavy as that door. And yet, she did it, lifting the gate door with a heave, Pulling it toward herself. The huge hardwood gate crashed through the koloss ranks, scattering bodies. Vin twisted expertly in the air, Pulling herself to the side, swinging the gate to the side as if it were tethered to her by a chain. Koloss flew in the air, bones cracking, sprayed like splinters before the enormous weapon. In a single sweep, Vin cleared the entire courtyard. The Well of Ascension, Ch. 53, P. 683 Again, that was without Duraluminum Pewter. It was a wooden gate, one that if I do recall had already almost been ripped of their hinges by the Koloss. That's less force than pulverizing the dudes head was.
NameIess Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Close. I believe that the change that the Soulcaster does is entirely in the Cognitive/spiritual realms, and that results in a change in the physical realm, which is not entirely perfect. Is there a reason it's not exactly perfect? 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Why would they dodge? Eveb with electrum the only shadows that stop moving are the ones to the side. Staying where you are seems safe. The Mistborn is not going to stand still when they can tell (via bronze) that the Lightweaver is soulcasting something. Moving quickly is the best way to avoid an attack like that. 2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: The shield I would agree with, but the wall would totally be absorbed. And Shallan isn't a Windrunner. We don't see Shallan hitting the ground. She may have been grievously injured and healed from it afterwards. 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: It was a wooden gate, one that if I do recall had already almost been ripped of their hinges by the Koloss. That's less force than pulverizing the dudes head was. She moved it with enough force to send Koloss flying. The thing must've weighed at least a thousand pounds (and that's really lowballing it), and she sent it through the Koloss with enough speed to scatter them like bugs.
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Is there a reason it's not exactly perfect? Why do people not competely not represent their Spiritual/cognitive aspects? 5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: The Mistborn is not going to stand still when they can tell (via bronze) that the Lightweaver is soulcasting something. Moving quickly is the best way to avoid an attack like that. Running straight forward seems like an equally appealing option, those shadows are still moving, and it allows them to make an offensive. 5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: We don't see Shallan hitting the ground. She may have been grievously injured and healed from it afterwards. We see her dress though, and there's no blood on it. 5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: She moved it with enough force to send Koloss flying. The thing must've weighed at least a thousand pounds (and that's really lowballing it), and she sent it through the Koloss with enough speed to scatter them like bugs. And breaking the stone would be in the high tens to low hundreds of thousands of pounds. Edited December 21, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.
NameIess Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 27 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Why do people not competely not represent their Spiritual/cognitive aspects? Because the spiritual/cognitive aspects have no influence on the physical unless Investiture is involved. 28 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Running straight forward seems like an equally appealing option, those shadows are still moving, and it allows them to make an offensive. They don't need shadows to dodge this. And an offensive would work, if they could close the distance in time. Get a hand on the Lightweaver before they summon their Blade as a wall, and it's over. 29 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: We see her dress though, and there's no blood on it. True. 32 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: And breaking the stone would be in the high tens to low hundreds of thousands of pounds. The force exerted on Vin due to swinging a thousand pound weight around is more than a thousand pounds, and Duraluminum Pewter is easily in the realm of high 10s so low 100s more powerful than normal Pewter.
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Because the spiritual/cognitive aspects have no influence on the physical unless Investiture is involved. Investiture is always involved. The answer, is that just like plato's forms everything is only an imperfect repetition of their spiritual and cognitive aspect. 5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: They don't need shadows to dodge this. And an offensive would work, if they could close the distance in time. Get a hand on the Lightweaver before they summon their Blade as a wall, and it's over. Which you wouldn't, as they would see you coming. 6 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: The force exerted on Vin due to swinging a thousand pound weight around is more than a thousand pounds, and Duraluminum Pewter is easily in the realm of high 10s so low 100s more powerful than normal Pewter. But Vin wouldn't experience all of that force, only of breaking the gate free, and of the gate itself. The momentum of the gate would only be felt if she tried to stop it.
Immortal Platypus Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 6 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: If the mistborn is bad at fighting they lose. Requiring one side to be unskilled isn't fair. I see what you're saying, but think of Shallan vs Jasnah. Shallan is utterly horrible at soulcasting while Jasnah is good at it. From what we've seen so far, 3rd Ideal Lightweavers tend to use their Lightweavings more than soulcasting. If you can show me an example or two proving me wrong, I'll happily concede this point. But my examples are Shallan and Vathah (he might be a squire/lower Ideal, but still) and they both use Lightweaving far more than soulcasting. On the other hand, almost all mistborn are good fighters (I can't think of a bad fighter, you'll need to provide an example if you want more of a debate). 1
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said: I see what you're saying, but think of Shallan vs Jasnah. Shallan is utterly horrible at soulcasting while Jasnah is good at it. From what we've seen so far, 3rd Ideal Lightweavers tend to use their Lightweavings more than soulcasting. If you can show me an example or two proving me wrong, I'll happily concede this point. But my examples are Shallan and Vathah (he might be a squire/lower Ideal, but still) and they both use Lightweaving far more than soulcasting. On the other hand, almost all mistborn are good fighters (I can't think of a bad fighter, you'll need to provide an example if you want more of a debate). Jasnah didn't become good at soulcasting until she had years of practice, see RoW 755 where she mentions that when she was younger she tried begging for change, which she notes as being ineffective at the end of OB. It wasn't natural skill.
NameIess Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Investiture is always involved. The answer, is that just like plato's forms everything is only an imperfect repetition of their spiritual and cognitive aspect. If a regular human sees themselves as a chicken, they will not become a chicken. If everyone sees a sword as a shield, it will not become a shield. Investiture allows one to perfectly match their Spiritual aspect, held back only by their Cognitive aspect. 2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Which you wouldn't, as they would see you coming. And do what? Abandon the Soulcasting attempt to block? 2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: But Vin wouldn't experience all of that force, only of breaking the gate free, and of the gate itself. The momentum of the gate would only be felt if she tried to stop it. Vin swept the gate around the courtyard in a circular motion, meaning she experienced centripetal force. Assuming the gate was 700 Kg, the radius of her swing was 13.42 meters (based on the 1,000 soldiers that fit into the square), and the velocity was 10 meters/second, Vin had ~5,216.1 Newtons of force applied to her, or about a thousand pounds. (This is probably a low estimate. Vin was sending Koloss flying, and considering that they can get up to twelve feet tall, meaning they'll be upwards of 300 Kg each. Sweeping through groups of them with a gate that weighs less than twice as much as a large Koloss isn't going to result in what was described in the book.)
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 46 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: And do what? Abandon the Soulcasting attempt to block? Raise the shield as you finish. 47 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Vin swept the gate around the courtyard in a circular motion, meaning she experienced centripetal force. Assuming the gate was 700 Kg, the radius of her swing was 13.42 meters (based on the 1,000 soldiers that fit into the square), and the velocity was 10 meters/second, Vin had ~5,216.1 Newtons of force applied to her, or about a thousand pounds. (This is probably a low estimate. Vin was sending Koloss flying, and considering that they can get up to twelve feet tall, meaning they'll be upwards of 300 Kg each. Sweeping through groups of them with a gate that weighs less than twice as much as a large Koloss isn't going to result in what was described in the book.) Vin was not physically connected to the gate, she pulled it towards her, which got it going, meaning she only experienced the weight of the gate, and the force needed to get it free, then she jumped, repositioned herself, and pulled again. Meaning she experienced, only the weight of the gate.
NameIess Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Raise the shield as you finish. And if the Mistborn hits you before you finish? 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Vin was not physically connected to the gate, she pulled it towards her, which got it going, meaning she only experienced the weight of the gate, and the force needed to get it free, then she jumped, repositioned herself, and pulled again. Meaning she experienced, only the weight of the gate. Sazed explicitly said that the gate swung around the courtyard as if attached to Vin by a chain. And it moved in circular motion, requiring centripetal force.
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 29 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: And if the Mistborn hits you before you finish? In that specific scenario, you would have to give up on the Transformation. 31 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Sazed explicitly said that the gate swung around the courtyard as if attached to Vin by a chain. And it moved in circular motion, requiring centripetal force. Pulls are only directly towards the lucher, you can't spin objects.
NameIess Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: In that specific scenario, you would have to give up on the Transformation. So in a lot of the scenarios. Those in which the Mistborn doesn't just decide to steelpush to the side and make you miss completely. 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Pulls are only directly towards the lucher, you can't spin objects. That's what centripetal force is. If you need an example of what Vin did, get a string and tie something on the end. Then move that thing in a straight line, like Vin did when she initially pushed the gate, and hold onto the string from the side of where the object at the end initially was, like Vin did when she twisted and pulled on the gate. The result is circular motion.
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: That's what centripetal force is. If you need an example of what Vin did, get a string and tie something on the end. Then move that thing in a straight line, like Vin did when she initially pushed the gate, and hold onto the string from the side of where the object at the end initially was, like Vin did when she twisted and pulled on the gate. The result is circular motion. There is no physical connection between them. Iron pulls don't bend they are always a straight line Quote So in a lot of the scenarios. Those in which the Mistborn doesn't just decide to steelpush to the side and make you miss completely. If they do it late enough you will miss, they get caught in the wall. Edited December 21, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.
NameIess Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said: There is no physical connection between them. Iron pulls don't bend they are always a straight line Centripetal force is in a straight line, towards the center of the circle. Vin pulled the gate in a straight line, then moved to the side and pulled in a straight line, causing it to curve.
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Centripetal force is in a straight line, towards the center of the circle. Vin pulled the gate in a straight line, then moved to the side and pulled in a straight line, causing it to curve. Bro what? Vin did not feel any additional forces, she redirected an object in motion, she didn't spin it in a circle around her.
NameIess Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Bro what? Vin did not feel any additional forces, she redirected an object in motion, she didn't spin it in a circle around her. "Pulling herself to the side, swinging the gate to the side as if it were tethered to her by a chain." She moved to the side, then pulled on the gate. Result? Circular motion. 1
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: "Pulling herself to the side, swinging the gate to the side as if it were tethered to her by a chain." She moved to the side, then pulled on the gate. Result? Circular motion. Yeah, for less than a single rotation. A few degrees at best. That won't result in any difference especially without a physical connection.
NameIess Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Yeah, for less than a single rotation. A few degrees at best. That won't result in any difference especially without a physical connection. Doesn't have to be a complete circle, for it to be comparable to being "tethered to her by a chain" She has to pull on it with that much force. Otherwise, Sazed would not have described it that way.
Frustration Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Doesn't have to be a complete circle, for it to be comparable to being "tethered to her by a chain" She has to pull on it with that much force. Otherwise, Sazed would not have described it that way. With a large radius it's not that much difference.
NameIess Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: With a large radius it's not that much difference. I gave a potential radius. Do you disagree with it?
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