Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted November 1, 2022 Posted November 1, 2022 I will be brief, mainly because I'm trying to focus on IRL things right now, as well as a post for a topic in the General Discussion section of the forum which I've been working on intermittently for the past few months, but this is something I've been thinking about for a while now, and the recent interactions of trellium with harmonium have brought this back to the fore. The basic premise of this theory is as follows: The different shardmetals not only have unique properties in and of themselves, but also with one another, as well as in various alloyed forms, including the possibility of raysium wires within devices to channel specific flows (as perhaps different alloys of raysium with another shardmetal allows only that specific type of investiture to be conducted along its length), trellium in detector devices or in the refinement of other metals, etc. Most of the cosmere's more science fiction related technologies, from travel to weapons to the more esoteric, will be based on the use of these various metals - not just with Scadrial's Metallic Arts, but as Fabrials, Radiant tools, etc. as well The shardmetals will be a primary resource to extract and use, in various forms, in the later Cosmere books, and most especially in Era 4 of Mistborn, and as such the prevalence of various technologies will depend on how readily available specific metals and their alloys are These metals, as they are the condensed form of a shards power, can, in theory, also be extracted from different sources of magic (for example, the spren who are naturally "organic" creatures of the Cognitive Realm, condense into metal when manifesting as Shardblades, and the possibility of condensing metal from the mists, as the refers was implied in last weeks sample chapters) Some metals will be more readily available than others, and some may become more readily available if a shard decides to actively contribute some of their power - thus some technologies, which depend on a rare metal, will be less common, but more sought after, than others Autonomy's metal will be VERY rare normally, as Autonomy's systems are rather low-power compared to most others, and Autonomy, or an Avatar of Autonomy, seems to dislike at least one manifestation of their power and tried to eliminate it (Sand mastery) Autonomy's investiture can be found on First of the Sun in the form of the Aviar / the worms People from at least two different cosmere factions want access to the Aviar, even though the Aviar abilities are already related to magic at least one of those factions (the Scadrians) commonly has access to already Therefore, those factions want the Aviar in order to "render them down" into Autonomy's metal ... That feels a little disturbing to me, but it seems the most logical conclusion. In any case, this also might imply, and this is a theory I think could be interesting, that Autonomy is on the back-foot in Era 4, its worlds or those with access to it being treated as resources for other factions, and an interesting reversal from the implications that Autonomy is at least partially a villain in the current eras, especially if Autonomy or one of Autonomy's Avatars is Trell. Thus a former villain becomes a put upon utility of the future cultures, someone being hounded for a resource they embody. 3
Isilel Posted November 1, 2022 Posted November 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Ixthos said: Autonomy's metal will be VERY rare normally, as Autonomy's systems are rather low-power compared to most others, and Autonomy, or an Avatar of Autonomy, seems to dislike at least one manifestation of their power and tried to eliminate it (Sand mastery) OTOH, Trell, who is very likely an Avatar of Autonomy, IMHO, seems to be rather profligate with their metal, given all the trellium spikes that we have seen in action so far. So, I don't know about it being so rare. Concerning the Aviar, maybe they can be utilized in making of the medallions? Or Scadrians just want to deny their abilities to other powerful space-faring civilizations, even though they themselves don't gain much from posessing them, because of similarity of powers. We also haven't seen all their powers - I doubt that they are prized on the mainland for the same kind of abilities as Sixth made use of in his story. Quote In any case, this also might imply, and this is a theory I think could be interesting, that Autonomy is on the back-foot in Era 4, its worlds or those with access to it being treated as resources for other factions, and an interesting reversal from the implications that Autonomy is at least partially a villain in the current eras, especially if Autonomy or one of Autonomy's Avatars is Trell. Thus a former villain becomes a put upon utility of the future cultures, someone being hounded for a resource they embody. Indeed. It seems to me that much in the situation in Era 4 and attendant hostilities will be about the consequences of prior meddlings of various entities and organizations on worlds alien to them playing out. Ghostbloods on Roshar, Ire and Trell on Scadrial, etc. 1
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted November 2, 2022 Author Posted November 2, 2022 13 hours ago, Isilel said: OTOH, Trell, who is very likely an Avatar of Autonomy, IMHO, seems to be rather profligate with their metal, given all the trellium spikes that we have seen in action so far. So, I don't know about it being so rare. Possibly, though we've only seen two confirmed examples of trellium so far (three if Suit's assassin was spiked as a precursor to being "taken"), and we know that Rayse, who was very much a hoarder of his own power (to the point that in RoW even the barest scrap of it had to be carefully looked for after the anti-light explosion due to its rarity) provided enough for the daggers and spears used by his forces. And, (and I feel this is very relevant, enough so to have "and (and)" in this paragraph ) while I certainly agree Trell is most likely at least partially related to Autonomy if not entirely, it could well be that different Avatars of a Shard have unique metals - similarly for Knights Radiant with their spren being hybrids of Honour and Cultivation, which causes their Blades and Plates to be unique shardmetal alloys, I suspect any unique mixture will have its own properties, and so if that theory is correct, then trellium might not be Autonomy's metal but an alloy of Autonomy and one or more other Shards (perhaps a bit of Ruin, as trellium certainly evokes the idea of "rust," or Odium if it is related to polarisation). If trellium is related to but distinct from bavadinium, then even if trellium is common (which it might not be, if Trell is slain and cease to exist as an independent Shard or Avatar, or if Trell has only provided a small supply of their metal, enough for the task they wish to perform), Autonomy's metal might still be sought by others later in the Cosmere, especially if the secondary theory of Autonomy being hunted and treated like a resource by the other spacefaring cultures comes into effect. 13 hours ago, Isilel said: Concerning the Aviar, maybe they can be utilized in making of the medallions? Or Scadrians just want to deny their abilities to other powerful space-faring civilizations, even though they themselves don't gain much from posessing them, because of similarity of powers. We also haven't seen all their powers - I doubt that they are prized on the mainland for the same kind of abilities as Sixth made use of in his story. That's certainly possible, especially if medallions require hemalurgy to be made, but we do know both factions would still allow the inhabitants of First of the Sun to have some Aviar, with whoever controls the planet taking the bulk for themselves. If it was simply a matter or denying them to any other group it would make much more sense for the plague mentioned in the draft for the sequel to run its full course, wiping out the Aviar in their entirety. Also, while Aviar abilities are cool, they are no wear near as impressive as currently shown than Surgebinding, the Metallic Arts, Sel's systems, or even Awakening - they are very much "low tech" magic, if you will. It could be as you say, that they have some other advanced ability, but either way, all this effort to gain access to a power that can only be used second hand, when we know the Metallic Arts and Surgebinding are already far more powerful than the Aviar are implied and even hinted to be .... 14 hours ago, Isilel said: Indeed. It seems to me that much in the situation in Era 4 and attendant hostilities will be about the consequences of prior meddlings of various entities and organizations on worlds alien to them playing out. Ghostbloods on Roshar, Ire and Trell on Scadrial, etc. Yup - and Autonomy certainly seems to be one who is the most meddling of the Shards, save for Odium. If Trell is Autonomy or an Avatar of Autonomy, then they certainly haven't generated any good will towards themselves on Scadrial! And I agree the Ghostbloods likely haven't endeared Roshar towards Scadrial, that is for certain. If my tin foil hat theory is right (actual tin, not aluminium, as aluminium is actually useful in the Cosmere for mental shields), I'm wondering if Shallan isn't behind the Set, or the Set is some other organisation's efforts to strike back at the Ghostblood home world. 1
Isilel Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 23 hours ago, Ixthos said: Possibly, though we've only seen two confirmed examples of trellium so far Far more than that. The chimaeras in Shadows of Self were also transformed via trellium spikes. 23 hours ago, Ixthos said: That's certainly possible, especially if medallions require hemalurgy to be made, but we do know both factions would still allow the inhabitants of First of the Sun to have some Aviar, with whoever controls the planet taking the bulk for themselves. Whether or not the medallions routinely require hemalurgy to be made, making medallions of the Aviar powers certainly would. And presumably the few birds that the factions intend to let the natives retain, if them claiming that they do is not a lie, wouldn't change the balance of great powers in any meaningful way, even if the opposition gets it's hands on them. 23 hours ago, Ixthos said: It could be as you say, that they have some other advanced ability, but either way, all this effort to gain access to a power that can only be used second hand, when we know the Metallic Arts and Surgebinding are already far more powerful than the Aviar are implied and even hinted to be .... These powers may be particularly effective in combination with those the factions already have? Particularly Rosharans probably could profit from abilities similar to Metallic Arts. For instance, a Seeker probably can detect the use of Surgebinding, so having an Aviar with Coppercloud effect, like one of the Sixth's would be quite helpful for the latter. The Scadrians may just want to keep the birds away from Rosharans. I just don't see how one could distill metal from the Aviar anymore than one could produce lerasium out of allomancers. 23 hours ago, Ixthos said: Yup - and Autonomy certainly seems to be one who is the most meddling of the Shards, save for Odium. If Trell is Autonomy or an Avatar of Autonomy, then they certainly haven't generated any good will towards themselves on Scadrial! And I agree the Ghostbloods likely haven't endeared Roshar towards Scadrial, that is for certain. It is also entirely possible that Trell went to Scadrial as a response to the Ghostblood meddling with some of Autonomy's worlds. Though Autonomy claiming multiple worlds is kinda cheating, of course. 23 hours ago, Ixthos said: If my tin foil hat theory is right (actual tin, not aluminium, as aluminium is actually useful in the Cosmere for mental shields), I'm wondering if Shallan isn't behind the Set, or the Set is some other organisation's efforts to strike back at the Ghostblood home world. Nah, I don't see Shallan as a founder of the Set or anything, though given that there are WoBs that Trell would continue to be a nuisance into era 3, IIRC, I could imagine her cooperating with them on some things. It does seem that Trell is afraid of Scadrial falling under Odium's sway in the future - i.e. "men of gold and red" and it's attempts to destroy Scadrial are in part aimed to prevent this. 2
Firesong she/her Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 Would it necessarily have to be that? I feel like that could also try and use the parasites the birds get their powers from, or even manage to find a way to manually convert state of Investiture. Like, we know you can remove liquid from a Perpendicularity using an aluminium vessel. So you could do that, and somehow convert it into a solid form. But this is just speculation. 1
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted November 3, 2022 Author Posted November 3, 2022 7 hours ago, Isilel said: Far more than that. The chimaeras in Shadows of Self were also transformed via trellium spikes. Fair point, I'd forgotten about them, but that still is far less metal than Odium has provided, and again Odium is loath to part with his power. Also, the spike in the Cycle was noted to be smaller than the other spikes, which also implies Trell is being as sparing as possible when providing the metal. And all this is still based on the assumption that Trell's metal is identical or similar enough in terms of its properties to Bavadin's, which it might not be. And, of course, the assumption Trell survives into Era 4 Maybe Trell is very willing to provide metals to their followers, and it is a variant of bavadinium, but, once they are dealt with, trellium and / or bavadinium, which might be a vital metal for many technologies, would become much rarer, with only the trellium previously available left to power an entire interstellar civilisation, and so now the hunt is on for more trellium and / or bavadinium. 7 hours ago, Isilel said: Whether or not the medallions routinely require hemalurgy to be made, making medallions of the Aviar powers certainly would. And presumably the few birds that the factions intend to let the natives retain, if them claiming that they do is not a lie, wouldn't change the balance of great powers in any meaningful way, even if the opposition gets it's hands on them. I'm not sure on the certainly part, as while I do agree the medallions almost certainly require hemalurgy, at least initially, in all their construction, I think it is far more likely that, once you have the systems you need, medallions can eventually "bootstrap" further production, such that you don't need another person to spike - that if you have a heating medallion and know what you are doing, you can make another heating medallion, and don't have to hunt someone down who already has heating. Maybe you do, maybe you can only get so many medallions from one person and that's it, but I imagine it should be possible to use one medallion to make more. It also is likely that, by Era 4, medallions are themselves antiquated technology, and have been replaced with something better that provides more power, and is self-sustaining. I also think it likely, given the Shardbearer's implicit power, that he or she or they alone could have killed everyone in that room, regardless of their Aviar's abilities - that is certainly what they all think. I'm not denying it is a possibility that the Aviar are seen as a key to greater power in and of themselves that the factions interested in First of the Sun wish to deny to others, I just feel, based on Brandon's interest in the economics of magic and its impact on how societies are driven, and the implied value of shardmetals for future technologies, that Aviar as a means of accessing Autonomy's metal would be a much more interesting story than "space birds give you access to power everyone already has." 8 hours ago, Isilel said: These powers may be particularly effective in combination with those the factions already have? Particularly Rosharans probably could profit from abilities similar to Metallic Arts. For instance, a Seeker probably can detect the use of Surgebinding, so having an Aviar with Coppercloud effect, like one of the Sixth's would be quite helpful for the latter. The Scadrians may just want to keep the birds away from Rosharans. I just don't see how one could distill metal from the Aviar anymore than one could produce lerasium out of allomancers. I'm not entirely convinced that Rosharans need access to Scadrian systems to replicate their powers - I think it is implied that, once you gain enough refinement on a power, it can emulate what others can do, if not exactly - for example when Vashar took the kidnapped girl's memories of her kidnapping, which emulated copper feruchemy via Breaths. I also hope it isn't entirely a case of all of Scadrial vs all of Roshar (vs all of Sel, etc.), but rather that there are Scadrians who work with the Rosharans, and Rosharans who work with Scadrians, and so there are future Knights Radiant (or their equivalent) on both sides, even if one has more than the others. We do know some spren can emulate Seekers (in Oathbringer, for example, the ones which detected soulcasting, requiring aluminium to shield the soulcasters), and there are mechanical systems being developed and implied to be being developed to perform these functions mechanically without needing the input of a Seeker (White Sand, Wax's theory on a use for trellium, etc.). We are talking about Era 4, where they have developed space ships and FTL. We don't know about most of the other shardmetals, and we had to wait until RoW to learn that Raysium is a polarised metal that conducts investiture. There likely is some mechanism to extract investiture from some source and then condense it - remember, Wax and Steris noted that the mists were made from vaporised lerasium, and discussed the methods of changing shardmetal states. Thus if one can take a shardmetal and, using some unknown method, turn it into vapour such as the mists, one can in theory turn the mists into the metal. Again, I'm not saying we know how it can be done now, any more than Wax knows how to make shardmetals change state into vapour, but only that it is highly likely that there is at least one method which can: extract investiture of a given type from a being that naturally uses that investiture contain that extracted investiture, and cause it to change state, solidifying it into a metal, or even a liquid And this method would be useful to acquire a given shardmetal, provided one can gain access to its source. And it likely would take a lot of a given vapour / light to produce a small quantity of shardmetal. 8 hours ago, Isilel said: It is also entirely possible that Trell went to Scadrial as a response to the Ghostblood meddling with some of Autonomy's worlds. Though Autonomy claiming multiple worlds is kinda cheating, of course. I like that theory, though I also like the idea that Trell is going after Harmony because Harmony broke an agreement, unknowingly, that Ati and Leras made, and Harmony is being held accountable. Also, Autonomy likely doesn't see that as cheating - I get the feeling it is a little hypocritical, valuing its own freedom over that of others, and so it should be free to do what it wants, even if what it wants causes you to be less free - I want to do what I want to do, and I don't care what you want to do or if I'm hurting you, I only care that your objections are interfering with me! 8 hours ago, Isilel said: Nah, I don't see Shallan as a founder of the Set or anything, though given that there are WoBs that Trell would continue to be a nuisance into era 3, IIRC, I could imagine her cooperating with them on some things. It does seem that Trell is afraid of Scadrial falling under Odium's sway in the future - i.e. "men of gold and red" and it's attempts to destroy Scadrial are in part aimed to prevent this. I know, as I said, tin foil still, I like the idea of a semi-villainous organisation in one series being "heroic" or heroic-adjacent in another, and vice versa. Though I do wonder if the men of gold and red really are Odium's, or some other faction, possibly using a mixture of multiple Shards together - Miles did say they would bear the "final metal." 5 hours ago, Firesong said: Would it necessarily have to be that? I feel like that could also try and use the parasites the birds get their powers from, or even manage to find a way to manually convert state of Investiture. Like, we know you can remove liquid from a Perpendicularity using an aluminium vessel. So you could do that, and somehow convert it into a solid form. But this is just speculation. True, but remember most people don't know the worms are the true origin of the Aviar powers, and it could be that one needs to be in an Aviar for the power to even be accessible. As to direct access to the Perpendicularity, there could be some factor in play preventing that (maybe one of the laws that govern the space based societies forbids tampering directly with Perpendicularities, and perhaps trying to access a Perpendicularity to extract power from it disrupts it too much, and as such one must gain power through indirect methods), or, more likely, no permanent base can be set up there to access the power, due to the sheer danger that Patji represents - for all we know, Patji's ecosystem is too dangerous even for Era 4 technology to reliably counter.
Stormtide_Leviathan Posted November 5, 2022 Posted November 5, 2022 On 11/1/2022 at 2:53 PM, Isilel said: OTOH, Trell, who is very likely an Avatar of Autonomy, IMHO, seems to be rather profligate with their metal, given all the trellium spikes that we have seen in action so far. So, I don't know about it being so rare. As I understand it, Avatars are basically like the inverse of whatever harmony is. Harmony is multiple shards combined into one Intent (with arguable effectiveness), and avatars are when one shard splits into multiple intents. So if Ruin, Preservation, and Harmony can all have distinct godmetals, I think it stands to reason that different avatars of the same shard may as well. 1
Psych0k1ll3r Posted November 7, 2022 Posted November 7, 2022 I thought that avatars were when the shard breaks off a piece of itself and makes that piece autonomous, but still a part of the larger whole of the shard? Unless I'm misremembering, this would seem to indicate that the avatar would share the intent of the shard that created it, no? 1
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted November 7, 2022 Author Posted November 7, 2022 37 minutes ago, Psych0k1ll3r said: I thought that avatars were when the shard breaks off a piece of itself and makes that piece autonomous, but still a part of the larger whole of the shard? Unless I'm misremembering, this would seem to indicate that the avatar would share the intent of the shard that created it, no? Avatars are in a sense almost splinters, but remain connected. However, it is implied each Avatar has a type of Vessel, so either is in a sense bestowed on someone or was shaped with a specific mind by the Shard or by the nature of its natural formation, and as different Vessels for a Shard can subtly influence the metal produced, so to it is implied that Avatars would have at the very least subtle variations in the metal they themselves produce. This also is assuming that Avatars can't be made from combining pieces of other Shards together, which would then create an alloyed metal or something like harmonium, which is distinct from lerasium and atium.
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