Dalinar, his glyph, Navani and other Tinfoil

[Marsh Madness]

So here is a question, slash theory. 

 

If you haven't read all stormlight books turn away, I jump all over the place and not sure how to hide text. Lol. First post here and not a general forum poster. 

 

Dalinars glyph in the header of his chapters is a tower with a crown below. Been rereading WOK and got to the chapter when Roshone is introduced as the new lighteyes for the town kal is from. In the chapter Lirin is talking about a game called breakneck, where 2 trios is the queen and 3 pairs is the tower. The tower is a losing hand but the queen is a winning hand. However, a pair and trio is called the butcher. And weather it wins  depends on what everyone else throws. I haven't read in WOBs or other theories, with contest of champions being a focal point of book 5, I am thinking Navani is either captured or somehow takes over the Odium shard, becomes the butcher, seeing as she is both queen and tower( bonded the sibling) and forces Dalinar to surrender. Seeing as they swore oaths to each over to be wedby the storm father. Either he breaks oaths and destroys the storm father or submits and becomes a fused sworn to odium. 

As for the fiery creatures in the death rattles, I think those maybe Radiants stabbed with Rhythym of War daggers, or Anti Void light daggers. Thus beginning The Night of Sorrows, a night where the lights go out and and signals the true desolation.

They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn..

 

Your thoughts?

[Treamayne]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:42 PM, Treamayne said:

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Hope that helps.

20 hours ago, Marsh Madness said:

So here is a question, slash theory. 

If you haven't read all stormlight books turn away, I jump all over the place and not sure how to hide text. Lol. First post here and not a general forum poster. 

Dalinars glyph in the header of his chapters is a tower with a crown below. Been rereading WOK and got to the chapter when Roshone is introduced as the new lighteyes for the town kal is from. In the chapter Lirin is talking about a game called breakneck, where 2 trios is the queen and 3 pairs is the tower. The tower is a losing hand but the queen is a winning hand. However, a pair and trio is called the butcher. And weather it wins  depends on what everyone else throws. I haven't read in WOBs or other theories, with contest of champions being a focal point of book 5, I am thinking Navani is either captured or somehow takes over the Odium shard, becomes the butcher, seeing as she is both queen and tower( bonded the sibling) and forces Dalinar to surrender. Seeing as they swore oaths to each over to be wedby the storm father. Either he breaks oaths and destroys the storm father or submits and becomes a fused sworn to odium. 

The Tower and Crown of Dalinar's Glyphpair as a shout out to the Breakneck "Butcher" roll certainly seems to fit Dalinar's backstory, but I doubt it applies to Navani. 

Quote

As for the fiery creatures in the death rattles, I think those maybe Radiants stabbed with Rhythym of War daggers, or Anti Void light daggers. Thus beginning The Night of Sorrows, a night where the lights go out and and signals the true desolation.

They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn..

Your thoughts?

I always thought this referenced the Singers/Listeners; as there were a number of references to flame and smoke/soot that traced back to their red and black marbled skin/carapace. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Treamayne

[Marsh Madness]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

The Tower and Crown of Dalinar's Glyphpair as a shout out to the Breakneck "Butcher" roll certainly seems to fit Dalinar's backstory, but I doubt it applies to Navani. 

The only issue with Dalinar is it specifically calls out the roll as a queen. I tend to listen to YouTube videos while working and someone(Lost in Discovery I think) mentioned that the pictures are portents of the future and are not to be understood initially. Granted it is a stretch, maybe looking for meaning where there isn't any and it's a wink to Dalinar being a butcher in his youth. I devoured the books over a few weeks and ROW was already out. So it could be in reference to the OB reveal as to what Dalinar was like in the past.  I am just beginning my rabbit hole journey. Lol.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I always thought this referenced the Singers/Listeners; as there were a number of references to flame and smoke/soot that traced back to their red and black marbled skin/carapace. 

As for the singers/listeners, it just doesn't feel right to me. Human/Rosharans(Rosharians?) Arrived on Roshar from a war torn world so it could be their arriving in ash from surgebinding experimentation.I always think of the death rattles as prophetic in the future, and think there is something worse out there than odium and his minions. 

Spoiler

I think only 14 of the 16 shards are named, and one of the final 2 will be the big bad. Or an odd combination of shards like Ambition/Odium/Ruin or something along those lines. 

 

[Treamayne]

9 minutes ago, Marsh Madness said:

I always think of the death rattles as prophetic in the future

But, they aren't. King T collected them because some of the rattles could have an element of prophecy or forshadowing. I've linked the list; but, for example:

Spoiler

Quote

I'm dying, aren't I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.

This was happening at the time of the rattle since it refererences the Silent Gatherers; and shows the subjecting seeing cryptic's true form in Shadesmar

Quote

Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns

This is also Present tense, most likly about Odium having more influence than Cultivation and the Splintered honor. 

Quote

The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me

This is also likely to be present-tense (or slightly past-tense) for when it was collected, and showing Taln's thought from Braize before he returned at the end of WoK

 

I'd be surprised if more than 50% of Death Rattles were prophetic - knowing that we only saw a small percentage of rattles collected by the Diagram and we probably saw >50% as prophetic because it's part of the foreshadowing for the series. 

[bmcclure7]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Hope that helps.

The Tower and Crown of Dalinar's Glyphpair as a shout out to the Breakneck "Butcher" roll certainly seems to fit Dalinar's backstory, but I doubt it applies to Navani. 

I always thought this referenced the Singers/Listeners; as there were a number of references to flame and smoke/soot that traced back to their red and black marbled skin/carapace. 

Personality i like the theory that it refers to dustbringers. 

[Mr. Misting he/him]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:48 PM, Marsh Madness said:

On 10/11/2022 at 1:19 PM, Treamayne said:

The Tower and Crown of Dalinar's Glyphpair as a shout out to the Breakneck "Butcher" roll certainly seems to fit Dalinar's backstory, but I doubt it applies to Navani. 

The only issue with Dalinar is it specifically calls out the roll as a queen. I tend to listen to YouTube videos while working and someone(Lost in Discovery I think) mentioned that the pictures are portents of the future and are not to be understood initially. Granted it is a stretch, maybe looking for meaning where there isn't any and it's a wink to Dalinar being a butcher in his youth. I devoured the books over a few weeks and ROW was already out. So it could be in reference to the OB reveal as to what Dalinar was like in the past.  I am just beginning my rabbit hole journey. Lol.

I think this makes more sense when applied to Dalinar than Navani, this is more likely a callback than foreshadowing. Though if you are talking about Butcher Queens how can you leave out Jasnah?

 

On 10/11/2022 at 2:48 PM, Marsh Madness said:

  Hide contents

I think only 14 of the 16 shards are named, and one of the final 2 will be the big bad. Or an odd combination of shards like Ambition/Odium/Ruin or something along those lines. 

Odium is the big bad, we have a lot of stuff from Brandon about how much of a jerk he is. He has already taken out four shards, how more a big bad can you be?

[Treamayne]

On 10/11/2022 at 4:48 PM, Marsh Madness said:

The only issue with Dalinar is it specifically calls out the roll as a queen.

8 hours ago, Mr. Misting said:

Though if you are talking about Butcher Queens how can you leave out Jasnah?

Jasnah would have been under Gavilar's Crest. We know Dalinar's is the Tower and Crown and Elhokar's Crest is the Sword and Crown; we do not know if the Sword and Crown was used by Gavilar as well or if he had a different iconography for Khokh and Linil than either of those. We also know Navani would have been under Gavilar's crest as well. By the time she and Dalinar wed, the Kholin princedom has moved to Adolin (we do not yet know if he retains Dalinar's Iconography or if he makes any changes) and both Dalinar and Navani are now the monarchs of Urithiru. That leaves a few months after the wedding and before the Battle of Thaylenah for the Tower and Crown to refer to Navani (or them both, as a couple).

All that muddiness is why I thought Occam's Razor applied, and it was a simple call-back to Dalinar's youth. Sounds like a good question for a future Sanderson Q&A or AMA.

[Marsh Madness]

On 10/12/2022 at 8:44 PM, Mr. Misting said:

I think this makes more sense when applied to Dalinar than Navani, this is more likely a callback than foreshadowing. Though if you are talking about Butcher Queens how can you leave out Jasnah?

I left out Jasnah because she didn't bond the sibling/tower spren. Navani is literally the tower and queen, i.e. the butcher. Didn't even think about Navani being under Gavilars crest, would it change when she wed Dalinar?

On 10/12/2022 at 8:44 PM, Mr. Misting said:

Odium is the big bad, we have a lot of stuff from Brandon about how much of a jerk he is. He has already taken out four shards, how more a big bad can you be?

I guess what I meant was more of an evolution of Odium. 

Spoiler

Like Sazed becoming Harmony after absorbing but Ruin and Preservation.

I don't think this version of Odium is the worst we will see. 

[Mr. Misting he/him]

12 hours ago, Marsh Madness said:

On 10/12/2022 at 7:44 PM, Mr. Misting said:

I think this makes more sense when applied to Dalinar than Navani, this is more likely a callback than foreshadowing. Though if you are talking about Butcher Queens how can you leave out Jasnah?

I left out Jasnah because she didn't bond the sibling/tower spren. Navani is literally the tower and queen, i.e. the butcher. Didn't even think about Navani being under Gavilars crest, would it change when she wed Dalinar?

I just thought it was interesting how well Jasnah fits the title of Butcher Queen, I didn't think this fact was related to the theory in any significant way.

[Marsh Madness]

5 hours ago, Mr. Misting said:

I just thought it was interesting how well Jasnah fits the title of Butcher Queen, I didn't think this fact was related to the theory in any significant way.

Ok. Got you now. Oh she definitely does. For some reason I feel like Jasnah is going to be a focal point in the second half of the series, and possibly a bit more ruthless. 

[Eluvianii he/him]

9 hours ago, Marsh Madness said:

Ok. Got you now. Oh she definitely does. For some reason I feel like Jasnah is going to be a focal point in the second half of the series, and possibly a bit more ruthless. 

Well, that much is confirmed. Last I heard Brandon was considering making her the flashback character for Book 10. She's got the finale all to herself.

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Well, that much is confirmed. Last I heard Brandon was considering making her the flashback character for Book 10. She's got the finale all to herself.

I certainly hope not. If the Book 10 flashback character is not a Herald, it should be Renarin.

[bmcclure7]

On 10/18/2022 at 7:56 PM, Treamayne said:

I certainly hope not. If the Book 10 flashback character is not a Herald, it should be Renarin.

He is book 5 I think. 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

He is book 5 I think. 

Book 5's flashback character is Szeth (originally boook 3 was Szeth and book 5 Dalinar, but they were swapped)

WoB (edited):

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Now, on to a deeper discussion of the novel. The first thing I did for Stormlight 3 was work on the flashback sequences for Dalinar and Szeth, as I hadn't yet decided which one would match this book. Through this process, I decided on Dalinar--a decision contrary to my original outline from the start of the series. This didn't concern me; the decision was made based on how the series had developed, and it's always good to expect some things to change during the actual writing. (For example, much of Kaladin's plot from book two was originally slated for book three.) Being too slavish to an outline isn't ever a good thing.

This decision made, I sat down and wrote Dalinar's flashbacks in their entirety. By the end of them, I was completely convinced these were the best paring for this book.