Shallan and testament

[BrightLord William]

I don’t know if this has been answered already but do we know shallan’s oaths with testament? If we don’t maybe that could be her 5th ideal as shallan’s first oath could have been she joined the ghost bloods but what would be her second? It could of been life before death then I am a ghost bloods and the final one being her fifth ideall

[Nasax he/him]

I am not sure either, maybe someone can confirm the following:

Shallan was at least at the 3rd ideal with Testament, because she had access to her shardblade back than. 

Then she told the truth about killing her father. That would be her 4th ideal. 

And somewhere after that she told the truth about killing her mother. 

At least till someone corrects me, I think she is at the 5th ideal. 

[Returned he/him]

I don't think that Shallan's progress has been as @Nasax outlines. Her narration is unreliable, and we really don't know how a Radiant breaking oaths and then returning to them with a different spren works, so those are important issues to bear in mind.

But when we see Shallan in the books in the present day we know that she's developing her bond with Pattern. Her development mirrors what we see with other Radiants, particularly Kaladin, in ways that would be complicated to explain solely with subconscious manipulation on her part. I'm referring specifically to her lack of ability with Stormlight and Surgebinding-- she can't wield as much Light, nor as well, in Words of Radiance as she can later, which seems to be a property of a lesser bond compared to a stronger one. She's much worse at Lightweaving and Soulcasting than she is later, though that could more easily be her mind holding her back to avoid confronting the truth. Other details in a similar vein include her not having access to Plate (that we know of). Finally, Lightweaver oaths are about self awareness, and it strikes me as odd to think that a person could reach the peak of that while also constantly lying to themselves to the extent that they don't know they've gained that awareness at all.

It seems much more likely to me that a new bond with a new spren requires a budding Radiant to start from square one rather than picking up where they left off with their previous spren and oaths. I don't think that her broken oaths with Testament are relevant to her current progress as a Radiant.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Returned

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

I don't think that Shallan's progress has been as @Nasax outlines. Her narration is unreliable, and we really don't know how a Radiant breaking oaths and then returning to them with a different spren works, so those are important issues to bear in mind.

But when we see Shallan in the books in the present day we know that she's developing her bond with Pattern. Her development mirrors what we see with other Radiants, particularly Kaladin, in ways that would be complicated to explain solely with subconscious manipulation on her part. I'm referring specifically to her lack of ability with Stormlight and Surgebinding-- she can't wield as much Light, nor as well, in Words of Radiance as she can later, which seems to be a property of a lesser bond compared to a stronger one. She's much worse at Lightweaving and Soulcasting than she is later, though that could more easily be her mind holding her back to avoid confronting the truth. Other details in a similar vein include her not having access to Plate (that we know of). Finally, Lightweaver oaths are about self awareness, and it strikes me as odd to think that a person could reach the peak of that while also constantly lying to themselves to the extent that they don't know they've gained that awareness at all.

It seems much more likely to me that a new bond with a new spren requires a budding Radiant to start from square one rather than picking up where they left off with their previous spren and oaths. I don't think that her broken oaths with Testament are relevant to her current progress as a Radiant.

The only thing that goes against this is the fact that Shallan's shardblade could change it's shape when she was in the chasm with Kaladin.  That strongly suggests (if not outright proves) that it was Pattern, not Testament that she was summoning as a blade.  It's also strongly suggested that Pattern is the blade she lends to Kaladin when she thinks about attaching a LightWeaving to Pattern as a distraction for the chasmfiend. I see two possibilities. Either LightWeavers earn their blades earlier than other orders, or Shallan remained at a higher Ideal after killing Testament/skipped over Ideals when bonding patter.

Sanderson has said that most Radiant orders follow a set order through the ideals when earning their blades, but it seems likely that LightWeavers are the exception to the rule, since their Ideals are different from the other orders. 

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

The only thing that goes against this is the fact that Shallan's shardblade could change it's shape when she was in the chasm with Kaladin.  That strongly suggests (if not outright proves) that it was Pattern, not Testament that she was summoning as a blade.  It's also strongly suggested that Pattern is the blade she lends to Kaladin when she thinks about attaching a LightWeaving to Pattern as a distraction for the chasmfiend. I see two possibilities. Either LightWeavers earn their blades earlier than other orders, or Shallan remained at a higher Ideal after killing Testament/skipped over Ideals when bonding patter.

Sanderson has said that most Radiant orders follow a set order through the ideals when earning their blades, but it seems likely that LightWeavers are the exception to the rule, since their Ideals are different from the other orders. 

That all sounds pretty reasonable to me. A lot depends on how much the identity of a specific spren matters to the bond. It seems like something that hasn't happened often, if ever, before.

The big discrepancy I see with my opinion on Shallan is Kaladin breaking his oaths in Words of Radiance. He totally lost the ability to Surgebind, or use Stormlight at all, but we able to swear the Third Oath immediately. He didn't have to re-commit to the first two, though he is still bound by them. It would be sensible for Shallan to be able to do something similar. It still seems odd to me with Lightweavers, given the nature of their oaths, and I definitely don't think that she's hit the fifth-- I don't think that the degree of self-deception she's still engaging in fits with that. But it is Shallan, so I suppose anything is possible.