Investiture Grenades, very cool

[JuanMoreShard]

These alomancy grenades are suuuper cool. They add a whole different dimension to abilities but there's a few edge cases where I'm kind of unsure as to what the result would be, like tin and pewter? they'd just make everyone inside be tineye's and pewterarms for duration? this is probably a headache which Brandon is trying to figure out atm (unless he already had to sit down and really think about it). But what's interesting about these grenades is how they erase Intent (or maybe it would be more accurate to say Command) because anyone can use them and they work on general not specific things.

I also wanted to add if these things could be done for things outside the metallic arts but I find it difficult again because of lack of Intent or Command. Unless you can also store certain Intents or Commands like a Lightweaver illusion or a gravitational pull in all directions.

Edited September 26, 2022 by JuanMoreShard
Wanted to add some stuff

[Jozomby he/him]

If a tin grenade does make everyone in the radius a tineye for the duration, I could see that being coupled with a flashbang to great effect.

I also really liked getting to see the grenades - Marasi's power in a grenade, and then combined with Wayne's bubbles, was very cool.

[StormingTexan he/him]

I thought this was awesome too! The grenades do not grant powers though they just extend the powers an Allomancer charges them with. It's been a while since I read BoM but from what I remember when they were testing it when Wax filled it and threw it at Wayne it didn't make Wayne a coinshot the cube just acted like a coinshot in Waynes vicinity. Obviously this will be super beneficial for some metals but almost unless for others (tin and pewter good examples of almost unless). Marasi actually mentions how the grenade makes her power one of the most useful which we get to see first hand. Same would be said for bendalloy you could use it to put a speed bubble around an ally. Pretty cool implications. 

Interestingly she had three grenades and said Wax had filled one. So she can "use" one with a power she does not have but it does not grant her the power it just gives her a "coinshot in a box" but she is not actively controlling any of the metal being pushed the grenade is creating a "coinshot AOE". I am trying to come up with situations where it would be useful since you cannot really control the pushes. Hoping we get to see it in the next chapters since it was mentioned. 

 

 

[Requiem17 she/her]

On 9/30/2022 at 4:04 PM, StormingTexan said:

 I am trying to come up with situations where it would be useful since you cannot really control the pushes. Hoping we get to see it in the next chapters since it was mentioned. 

 

 

I wonder if Marasi can stand on a piece of metal and activate the bomb while holding it, and it would push her away from all pieces of metal in the vicinity, effectively getting her a flying leap. 

I just started my reread of BoM so my facts may be off, but couldn't Wayne charge the box with healing power and thus let anyone in the area of the bomb be healed? I assume that is how that would work, wonder why they haven't prepared a bomb like that instead, that seems really useful in keeping Marasi safe. 

[The Subsumer he/him]

A Lurcher could potentially charge the grenade and toss it in-between two opponents carrying metal. The cube would be drawn to one of the people, because of the comparative masses, but the subsequent chaos of all the metal nearby being pulled to a single point seems hilarious.

On 9/30/2022 at 3:04 PM, StormingTexan said:

I am trying to come up with situations where it would be useful since you cannot really control the pushes. Hoping we get to see it in the next chapters since it was mentioned. 

 

 

The way it's been used so far, I believe, has been just chucking it into a crowd to throw things around. But if you were to throw the grenade and, at the same time, a group of ball bearings, you could use it offensively.

 

On 10/2/2022 at 8:15 AM, Requiem17 said:

I just started my reread of BoM so my facts may be off, but couldn't Wayne charge the box with healing power and thus let anyone in the area of the bomb be healed? I assume that is how that would work, wonder why they haven't prepared a bomb like that instead, that seems really useful in keeping Marasi safe. 

I believe that it is Allomantic, instead of Feruchemical, so Wayne wouldn't be able to give it his healing ability... that said, it's interesting that the grenades contain an element of Feruchemy (the charging of the grenade, similar to the filling of a metalmind) but for Allomantic purpouses. There very well could be a Feruchemical form of this somewhere- imagine the effect of a sudden burst of healing or speed in a whole group of people. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by The Subsumer
Wayne, not Wax

[Nasax he/him]

On 26.9.2022 at 6:44 PM, JuanMoreShard said:

But what's interesting about these grenades is how they erase Intent (or maybe it would be more accurate to say Command) because anyone can use them and they work on general not specific things.

I think your point about Intend is very interesting, so here are my thoughts on it:

Allomancy is a form of using Investiture that requires very little Intend. I am thinking about Vin at the beginning of "The Final Empire" where she used Allomancy without knowing what she was doing.
Secondly: I guess creating an allomantic grenade still requires Intend. Although it's only necessary in the creation process, using it may require no Intend at all.
Or maybe (just speculating here) throwing the grenade requires you to know that you have a grenade in your hand, otherwise it won't work.

I don't remember the part where they use the allomantic grenade. Did they know what kind of device they had there? 

[The Subsumer he/him]

They had little to no understanding of it. The first one they come across was after the train hijacking, when they stole it from that one Leecher. I believe they found out by accident, when Marasi accidentally made a speed bubble around them with it. I don't think you really need any intent here; all you need to do is burn your metal and then toss it away.  

Edited October 3, 2022 by The Subsumer

[StormingTexan he/him]

 

On 10/3/2022 at 0:00 AM, The Subsumer said:

The way it's been used so far, I believe, has been just chucking it into a crowd to throw things around. But if you were to throw the grenade and, at the same time, a group of ball bearings, you could use it offensively.

Yes this is kind of what I thought and if you were a coin shot you could direct anything heading your way away from you.  Marasi could have thrown it in the group of Set guys when they started shooting so the bullets would fly back at them but that is obviously pretty dangerous. Curious if it does a 360 push or directional to a face of the cube. 

 

It is interesting that Marasi had to "top off" her cube. I think it's an all or nothing device meaning you can not throw it somewhere and use 25% of he power. So this must mean the alomantic charge degrades after a certain period of time. 

 

 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

13 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

It is interesting that Marasi had to "top off" her cube. I think it's an all or nothing device meaning you can not throw it somewhere and use 25% of he power. So this must mean the alomantic charge degrades after a certain period of time. 

Maybe it's just that in order to turn it off, you need to hit a switch which would be difficult if you threw it away from yourself.

Edited October 5, 2022 by JustQuestin2004

[drunkenbotanist]

Anyone else think that the next step in allomantic grenade evolution is ones that can be used more specifically? I'm thinking of the way we found out fabrials can be modified, changes to the cage and moving wires around can change the effects, making it programmable

Maybe making a tineye grenade would give it the ability to turn on in response to an event/stimulus 

Who knows what the mechanism would be, but currently the mechanical allomancy is super basic. 

 

 

 

[Poi]

On 8.10.2022 at 6:56 PM, drunkenbotanist said:

Anyone else think that the next step in allomantic grenade evolution is ones that can be used more specifically? I'm thinking of the way we found out fabrials can be modified, changes to the cage and moving wires around can change the effects, making it programmable

Maybe making a tineye grenade would give it the ability to turn on in response to an event/stimulus 

Who knows what the mechanism would be, but currently the mechanical allomancy is super basic. 

 

 

 

The problem is that we still have little to no understanding of how these grenads work, unlike the extensive knowledge that we have on fabrials, so predicting the next step in their evolution is hard since we don't know what is and isn't possible.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Chromium grenades would be a scary weapon to face

 

[drunkenbotanist]

20 hours ago, Poi said:

The problem is that we still have little to no understanding of how these grenads work, unlike the extensive knowledge that we have on fabrials, so predicting the next step in their evolution is hard since we don't know what is and isn't possible.

C'mon Brandon please just a crumb 

[Uncreation]

I was surprised after the end of Book 2, in Book 3 they didn't have Raenette make a gun that is like a grenade launcher for alimantic grenades. That seems like a missed opportunity. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

On 9/26/2022 at 5:44 PM, JuanMoreShard said:

These alomancy grenades are suuuper cool. They add a whole different dimension to abilities but there's a few edge cases where I'm kind of unsure as to what the result would be, like tin and pewter? they'd just make everyone inside be tineye's and pewterarms for duration? this is probably a headache which Brandon is trying to figure out atm (unless he already had to sit down and really think about it). But what's interesting about these grenades is how they erase Intent (or maybe it would be more accurate to say Command) because anyone can use them and they work on general not specific things.

I also wanted to add if these things could be done for things outside the metallic arts but I find it difficult again because of lack of Intent or Command. Unless you can also store certain Intents or Commands like a Lightweaver illusion or a gravitational pull in all directions.

There's a WoB that says only metals that have an area of effect give that kind of effect in a grenade. So charging a grenade (Primer Cube is what it's actually called) with Tin or Pewter and activating it would just give whoever is holding it the effects of burning Tin or Pewter. The Cubes we see only have an area-of-effect effect because we see them using metals that affect at a distance, like Cadmium/Bendalloy bubbles, or Steelpushing. The WoB says that eventually, proper area-of-effect Cubes could be made with technological progress, but the ones we see used would act the aforementioned way.

On 10/3/2022 at 6:00 AM, The Subsumer said:

I believe that it is Allomantic, instead of Feruchemical, so Wayne wouldn't be able to give it his healing ability... that said, it's interesting that the grenades contain an element of Feruchemy (the charging of the grenade, similar to the filling of a metalmind) but for Allomantic purpouses. There very well could be a Feruchemical form of this somewhere- imagine the effect of a sudden burst of healing or speed in a whole group of people. 

It works with Feruchemy too. That's how the Malwish Skimmer ships get light enough to fly. A charge of F-Gold just wouldn't act as an AOE, it would only heal the person who was holding it.

On 10/4/2022 at 8:26 PM, StormingTexan said:

Curious if it does a 360 push or directional to a face of the cube.

360, but could maybe be changed with the right Intent.

On 10/4/2022 at 8:26 PM, StormingTexan said:

It is interesting that Marasi had to "top off" her cube. I think it's an all or nothing device meaning you can not throw it somewhere and use 25% of he power. So this must mean the alomantic charge degrades after a certain period of time. 

The Allomantic charge could certainly degrade since we see in things like Stormlight that Investiture defuses like a gas following a pressure differential. The Cube will use all of its charge after it is activated, but it slowly loses that charge over time when not used. However, I think you're a bit off regarding the all-or-nothing bit. You can't control the strength of the Cube very well, only how long it works. The Cube likely has a 'Burn Rate' at which it expends its charge once activated, so even if it's only 50% full, it'll still work, just for half its usual time, a quarter for 25%, etc. As for the Allomantic strength, you could presumably make it work at specific strengths, but only by charging it for a very short time corresponding to the strength you want, which wouldn't be very useful since it would only take effect for an extremely short time, but you could still use it for things like Steelpushes or Ironpulls of specific strengths.

On 10/8/2022 at 4:56 PM, drunkenbotanist said:

Anyone else think that the next step in allomantic grenade evolution is ones that can be used more specifically? I'm thinking of the way we found out fabrials can be modified, changes to the cage and moving wires around can change the effects, making it programmable

Maybe making a tineye grenade would give it the ability to turn on in response to an event/stimulus 

Who knows what the mechanism would be, but currently the mechanical allomancy is super basic. 

It wouldn't quite work how you're suggesting with the Tin, but Brandon has suggested that is indeed the direction Primer Cube technology is going.