The Diagram came from Future Odium

[coolsnow7]

I’m going to sketch out this theory and maybe get around to providing quotes and stuff to substantiate it later. And I don’t love time travel mechanics. Just too messy. So I’m not thrilled with where the evidence is leading me.

But a couple of thoughts, all paraphrased:

* Cultivation to TOdium: “you’ve been on this path for a long time” - ie before you asked for a boon from me - “I just tried to help you learn to wield the power with honor.” This is in response to TOdium shocked that she would try something so audacious like putting him in position to because Odium - which would absolutely include the Diagram. In other words, the Diagram was NOT part of her boon+curse. I take this to be explicit in the text - that T’s path to TOdium-hood started long before Cultivation got involved directly, and that that path kicked off with the Diagram 

* Speaking of the Diagram, Taravangian: “thinking that the Diagram was about anything more than saving Kharbranth was dangerous.” Dangerous why? I think we know the answer especially when we reach T’s last days: “he cried over the lies [about trying to make utilitarian sacrifices to save a seed of humanity] he told Dalinar - because the truth was much more shameful”. Yeah the truth - namely that you were doing all this with the goal of usurping Odium - is pretty shameful. 
 

Finally, there’s that moment that I’m struggling to recall in detail where he says “you don’t understand, Odium sets things up so that if he loses, he still wins.” Does that sound like the Odium we know? L O L. Our Odium loses without winning left and right. Our Odium is almost a beautiful loser: he prioritizes sending a message about doing things his way over actually winning. (This was during his last conversation with Dalinar.)

You know who sets things up so that if he loses, he wins? In fact you might say “the only way to agree to a deal is to make sure that no matter the outcome you are satisfied”? That level of craftiness I’ve only seen from T - especially as TOdium, when he makes fun of Odium’s foolishness and says this!

One more related piece of evidence: the epigraphs in WoR:

”You must become King. Of Everything.”

1) Taravangian was still able to achieve his primary goal without being king of more than Jah Keved 2) Everything contains quite a bit more than Roshar! But it is consistent with trying to save the entire Cosmere from incompetent shards, and waging a “war for everything”. 
 

“You must destroy the Parshendi if this one starts to explore their powers it will form a bridge”

Why destroy the Parshendi if they might form a bridge between the Singers and the Listeners? That would be bad for Odium if he loses the Singers as an ally! But it would be GOOD for TOdium who clearly does not want whatever is happening between Leshwi, Venli, Thude, Rlain (+Renarin perhaps), Sja-Anat, and their associated followers - very bridge-like. 

At a minimum, the Diagram contains information about Odium with Taravangian as the vessel. But I would go so far as to say that the Diagram was a vision Taravangian got of himself - not Rayse Odium -  from the future, and that Cultivation was certainly not involved. 

[offer]

4 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

* Cultivation to TOdium: “you’ve been on this path for a long time” - ie before you asked for a boon from me - “I just tried to help you learn to wield the power with honor.” This is in response to TOdium shocked that she would try something so audacious like putting him in position to because Odium - which would absolutely include the Diagram. In other words, the Diagram was NOT part of her boon+curse. I take this to be explicit in the text - that T’s path to TOdium-hood started long before Cultivation got involved directly, and that that path kicked off with the Diagram 

 

 

I understood it as Cultivation saying that even without the diagram , Tarvangian would have started an organization to try and save the people. The path started when he heard from Gavilar about the threat. The diagram gave him the power to do this more effectively and in the end control the poweer of Odium instead of the power controlling him.

 

4 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

* Speaking of the Diagram, Taravangian: “thinking that the Diagram was about anything more than saving Kharbranth was dangerous.” Dangerous why? I think we know the answer especially when we reach T’s last days: “he cried over the lies [about trying to make utilitarian sacrifices to save a seed of humanity] he told Dalinar - because the truth was much more shameful”. Yeah the truth - namely that you were doing all this with the goal of usurping Odium - is pretty shameful. 

 

I don`t think that Taravangian new he would become Odium. He new that Odium was afraid of nightblood so he decided to attack him with it - he didn`t think about what will happen after that. 

 

4 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

 

“You must destroy the Parshendi if this one starts to explore their powers it will form a bridge”

Why destroy the Parshendi if they might form a bridge between the Singers and the Listeners? That would be bad for Odium if he loses the Singers as an ally! But it would be GOOD for TOdium who clearly does not want whatever is happening between Leshwi, Venli, Thude, Rlain (+Renarin perhaps), Sja-Anat, and their associated followers - very bridge-like. 

The bridge it is talking about is the everstrom - bridge between the realm that brought the VoidSpren to the physical realm and awakened the unmade.

This bridge was good for Odium and was a major part off his plan. 

 

[teknopathetic]

Interesting, I had never thought of this. And there is an example of this occurring in Starlight already with Kaladin and his speer skills "before" meeting Syl. 

If Kaladin get's to be good at the spear as a child because he will eventually have Syl, then it stands to reason there might be an effect on Mr.T before he takes up a shard. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by teknopathetic

[stonehand]

12 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I take this to be explicit in the text - that T’s path to TOdium-hood started long before Cultivation got involved directly, and that that path kicked off with the Diagram 

I may be misunderstanding you, but didn't T create the diagram AFTER meeting with Cultivation?

[Returned]

Interesting idea.

But I think that it has two major obstacles to overcome: there is always some temporal leakage from the spiritual realm, if unpredictable, and Rayse would have had every bit as much access to it as Taravangian-as-Odium ever would, plus millennia more experience working with it. All the rest strikes me as a just-so story. If we assume the conclusion then it makes sense to read some of the evidence you present as you suggest, but without that assumption it's a lot more shaky (at best) to lean on those interpretations.

Second, knowledge of the future is flat out not very useful to most entities in the Cosmere, outside of the few seconds burning Atium grants. It worked for Preservation, but totally failed Ruin. It didn't seem to do much for Honor or Rayse-Odium, but possibly was useful for Cultivation. It wasn't enough to save Ambition, Dominion, or Devotion. It was a mixed bag for Renarin and Kaladin, but perfect and decisive for Lightsong.

Finally, we have some decent (if circumstantial) evidence that the Diagram really is related to Taravangian's intelligence/empathy cycles. As described, it was exactly one day of shattering brilliance, just like his other daily cycles are. On days when he is more intelligent Taravangian is (seemingly) more able to correctly interpret the Diagram, including sections that are encoded or compressed. The Diagram extrapolates and guesses, based on current understanding when it was written, rather than defining events clearly, and expresses a lot of uncertainty ("can we make use of a Truthless?" instead of "we can make use of a Truthless").

We can always assume that any such discrepancies are due to perfect future knowledge slotting into an ever-more-baroque scheme, but again this simply assumes the conclusion in order to justify reading potential evidence in ways that support that conclusion. I, personally, will classify this theory as extremely unlikely. But I'm also going to keep a sharp eye out for possible temporal leakage around Taravangian-Odium too. Cool theory, thanks for posting it!

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Interesting, I had never thought of this. And there is an example of this occurring in starlight already with Kaladin and his speer skills "before" meeting Syl. 

If Kaladin get's to be good at the spear as a child because he will eventually have Syl, then it stands to reason there might be an effect on Mr.T before he takes up a shard. 

I thought it was more of "he was naturally good with a spear" and then his bond enhanced those abilities when it began

[Returned]

20 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I thought it was more of "he was naturally good with a spear" and then his bond enhanced those abilities when it began

That is right, but we also have a WoB which establishes that some of that enhancement occurred before the bond with Syl due to temporal leakage from the spiritual realm:

Quote

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)