Audible Oddity and theories about the Heralds Insanity

[lukaash]

I am creating this for the audio listeners. I listen to the books as I am dyslexic and get head aches when I read to much. I was relistening to RoW and I noticed that there are lot of audio cues.  I know that Brandon Sanderson controls the audio books to some extent, but mostly lets them do their work. However, mabye this was something he wanted to add. I am too stupid to notice them all, but the strangest one I noticed was that Ash talked in a rhythm similar to how the singers/listeners talk. Also, an odd thing is that Taln always says the same thing in the same rhythm; on a less important, but similar point, what if the rhythm that Taln says it is important in a realmatic sense. How did he last so long, he was speaking a rhythm of that "encourages" stormlight. I don't think he was singing a song for "repulsion" of void light as this is advance, but it would not surprise me if there was a song similar to the song that the singers sing for stormlight. This is the main theory that I think is true.

1st Tin foil hat Theory: The heralds are going insane because their cognitive shadows are being corrupted with void light.

So the heralds are cognitive shadows made from stormlight. There identity frozen in that moment and tied with enough power to keep there souls alive. What if as a part of their torture, Odum started to try to corrupt them with Void light. They are made of investiture and can be captured like spren. It would only make sense that they could be corrupted as well. However, they have a very strong identity which resists corruption as we have seen via light weavers. They started to be corrupted, and they are singing honors song to try to resist it.

Second tin foil hat theory: why are they sane around oaths

I don't quite know why they get lucid when radiant make oaths around them. Maybe it is the connection to honor/stormfather pushing their split investiture towards stormlight. In that moment, they connect to the stormfather/honor, and get their sanity? This part of it is definitely tin foil hat, but I don't really have any ideas.

[SpinningSky]

I also did my first "read" through with audiobooks, honestly I never noticed what you say. 
In general I felt there were many liberties Kramer and Reading were taking even from each other, for instance I think Reading was doing a more rhythmic reading than Kramer when doing Parshendi.  (Reading's last name is making this sentence a bit awkward )
Matter of fact what I remember was that I felt the characters which were read by both actors ended up being a bit weaker for it in terms of audiobook, cause they felt a bit like different characters depending on who was reading; it was some time back so I can't really quote exact moments. 
This is it say, I personally wouldn't take the readings are clues for unknown lore.

 

Having said that, what you bring up merges quite well with the whole "currupted attributes" theories about how each Herald ended up acting following a corrupted version of their original defining attributes, and I think it would make sense as a plot point, we are presented in RoW how heralds work similarly to spren for certain things, and we've talked about corrupted spren a whole lot, I can see voidlight curruption being part of their madness, though I don't think it could be part of the torture, as they got "very mad" while they were on Roshar.

Another thought on the topic is that in the Cosmere in general beings that go on living to long tend to go insane, so I can see oaths and Connection acting as a shield for them from this issue. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Why Kaladin?]

21 hours ago, lukaash said:

1st Tin foil hat Theory: The heralds are going insane because their cognitive shadows are being corrupted with void light.

I think this is just because cognitive shadows over time get their souls run thin and go insane the same has happened to the Fused. Here is a WoB that corroborates this somewhat

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celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain Cognitive Shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a Cognitive Shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are Cognitive Shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a Cognitive Shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Sept. 8, 2020)

 

21 hours ago, lukaash said:

Second tin foil hat theory: why are they sane around oaths

I don't quite know why they get lucid when radiant make oaths around them. Maybe it is the connection to honor/stormfather pushing their split investiture towards stormlight. In that moment, they connect to the stormfather/honor, and get their sanity? This part of it is definitely tin foil hat, but I don't really have any ideas.

I this is close. My guess is that the Radiant's connection to the Honor is increased when they swear an oath and it ties any Heralds nearby to Honor as well and briefly restores their mind.

[kenthomas261]

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However, they have a very strong identity which resists corruption as we have seen via light weavers.

Can you explain what you mean by this or what you are referencing with this?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Herolds spoke with a measure of rhythm. We know humans have the ability to recognize it. We know at least some Horneaters can hear some tones (may be the singer blood). But the Herolds are very invested so it would make sense if they were more in tune with it. Like how Brandon said that there are familiarities between the tones and what seekers hear. 

I think that one of the death rattles could very well be talking about a herald being corrupted. 
 

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The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended

 

[lukaash]

On 9/6/2022 at 4:51 PM, kenthomas261 said:

Can you explain what you mean by this or what you are referencing with this?

First of all, I totally may be wrong. That being said, I always thought that the stronger your identity, the more you can resist change (via investiture). We see this when Shallan talks to the stick. The stick has a strong identity as a stick. Shallan has to really push for it not to be a stick. This effect is much stronger in people as people have a very strong identity. You soul has a very strong idea of what it is even if you don't. Spoilers for the emperors soul below if you haven't read it.

Spoiler

This can also seen with essence marks in forgery. The soul resists it and it rejects the transformation after a while.

Another example of something with a strong identity resisting change is the tower. The tower resisted the change that Raboniel was pushing on it. She had to flood the entire tower with light and then "unmake" it. Which we know is a very destructive process to the original thing (from how spren talk about it).

[cometaryorbit]

I figure the reason Dalinar's perpendicularity or a Radiant swearing oaths nearby helps is because it pulls them closer to the Spiritual - which helps either because their damage is Cognitive and it's now partially bypassed, or because the timelessness of the Spiritual allows them to tap into their former selves.