Secret Societies on Roshar

[Yumiya]

There is a WOB that says there are 9 secret societies on Roshar (at the time of Oathbringer):
 

Quote

Aradel (paraphrased)

I asked Brandon just how many secret societies were on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There are nine currently working.

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

But the coppermind only lists 8.

1. Ghostbloods (aka Kelsier)
2. Ire (Lighthouse keeper and the merchants)
3. Seventeenth Shard (chasing Hoid)
4. The Sleepless ( protecting dawnshards and the like)
5. Skybreakers (killing budding radiants)
6. Sons of Honor
7. The Diagram 
8. The Envisagers

But who is the ninth? 

• Worldsingers - not very secret
• Veristitalians - also not secret
• The Five Scholars - yeah, we have Vasher and Nightblood and Argent, but they seem more preoccupied and not a unified group

That leaves three options in my mind:

• The Set
  • One of the Feruchemists could be a Set agent. The set has decided to wipe out all of civilization when advances in technology gets too high. Maybe the advances in Fabrials has them worried enough to try to start a world war on Roshar to wipe the population out.
• The Path
  • One of the Feruchemists could be a Pathian Missionary, most likely Gereh  
• Khriss's University
  • This is may preferred theory. We know that Nahz has been infiltrating places, like the Cartographers guild, attempted at bridgeman meeting, stolen documents and now trying to infiltrate the stonewards. Sounds pretty secret agency to me.

[Elegy he/him]

There's a common theory that there might be a Shin organization that keeps the honorblades. Nothing's confirmed though.

There is also the possibility that the Envisagers don't count, since they seem to be an offshoot/splinter group of the Songs of Honor:

Quote

Hessi's Ward

Were the Sons of Honor a splinter group of the Envisagers?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but let's just say you have the relationship backward.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

Which would mean that there could be one more secret society yet again.

[Kandrafish]

On 8/4/2022 at 11:35 AM, Yumiya said:

There is a WOB that says there are 9 secret societies on Roshar (at the time of Oathbringer):
 

But the coppermind only lists 8.

1. Ghostbloods (aka Kelsier)
2. Ire (Lighthouse keeper and the merchants)
3. Seventeenth Shard (chasing Hoid)
4. The Sleepless ( protecting dawnshards and the like)
5. Skybreakers (killing budding radiants)
6. Sons of Honor
7. The Diagram 
8. The Envisagers

But who is the ninth? 

• Worldsingers - not very secret
• Veristitalians - also not secret
• The Five Scholars - yeah, we have Vasher and Nightblood and Argent, but they seem more preoccupied and not a unified group

That leaves three options in my mind:

• The Set
  • One of the Feruchemists could be a Set agent. The set has decided to wipe out all of civilization when advances in technology gets too high. Maybe the advances in Fabrials has them worried enough to try to start a world war on Roshar to wipe the population out.
• The Path
  • One of the Feruchemists could be a Pathian Missionary, most likely Gereh  
• Khriss's University
  • This is may preferred theory. We know that Nahz has been infiltrating places, like the Cartographers guild, attempted at bridgeman meeting, stolen documents and now trying to infiltrate the stonewards. Sounds pretty secret agency to me.

I agree that 7 of these seem almost absolutely confirmed

1. Ghostbloods 
2. Ire -->Provides Sel-phones (lighthouse keeper is not necessarily still a member)
3. Seventeenth Shard 
4. The Sleepless 
5. Skybreakers 
6. Sons of Honor --> Shallan interacts RoW (I assume Envisagers are offshoot organization)
7. The Diagram 

I think that the Envisagers would count, but this relies on them currently being an active secret society (Teft thinks they are gone) and also relies on them being separate from the Sons of Honor. 

I agree about the 5 scholars not counting. Arsteel and Vasher and Vivenna and Nightblood all seem to be at odds and only two of them were original scholars.

 

Contenders:

I do think that Hoid and his Worldbringers on Scadrial and Worldsingers on Roshar could be a contender as an organization. (In a hiding in plain sight way) So, Hoid's mini organization could count.

The University of the Silverlight could count. 

The single kandra sent by Harmony could count.

The Feruchemist could be part of the Set or it could be a part of a different organization.

Do the Larkins count as an organization?

Could their be secret groups amongst the Iri that count?

(I have added some contenders and some new data (hopefully))

I ordered them from most likely to out there theories of mine.

 

I also agree that the Verisitalians don't seem to be that secret.

I excluded the replaced the path with Harmony because it seems more likely that Harmony himself would be orchestrating an entire group including Feruchemists and kandra, but I think it is unlikely based on his interaction with Hoid via letter.

 

 

 

[Why Kaladin?]

I would also raise the point that there are probably several other factions of worldhoppers that we don't know about and I'm guessing most worldhoppers operate with some group to help them get around and get resources.

I think the chances that the Set are there is lower since we do know that they largely go after more advance locations and Scadrial is the most advance that we've seen especially just taking into consideration their pure technological prowess. Or are they gauging their prowess with Fabrials and the like?

[Yumiya]

46 minutes ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

Or are they gauging their prowess with Fabrials and the like?

I was thinking of the advancements in Fabrial technology. On the night of the assignation there was talk of the new fabrial heaters.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:35 AM, Yumiya said:

There is a WOB that says there are 9 secret societies on Roshar (at the time of Oathbringer):
 

But the coppermind only lists 8.

1. Ghostbloods (aka Kelsier)
2. Ire (Lighthouse keeper and the merchants)
3. Seventeenth Shard (chasing Hoid)
4. The Sleepless ( protecting dawnshards and the like)
5. Skybreakers (killing budding radiants)
6. Sons of Honor
7. The Diagram 
8. The Envisagers

That leaves three options in my mind:

• The Set
  • One of the Feruchemists could be a Set agent. The set has decided to wipe out all of civilization when advances in technology gets too high. Maybe the advances in Fabrials has them worried enough to try to start a world war on Roshar to wipe the population out.
• The Path
  • One of the Feruchemists could be a Pathian Missionary, most likely Gereh  
• Khriss's University
  • This is may preferred theory. We know that Nahz has been infiltrating places, like the Cartographers guild, attempted at bridgeman meeting, stolen documents and now trying to infiltrate the stonewards. Sounds pretty secret agency to me.

 @Chaos *voice* "What IS a secret society?"   an organization whose members are sworn to secrecy about its activities. 1st Rule of The Diagram is you don't talk about The Diagram. I like Khriss's University, but it's hard to say if that's a secret society. It's secret from Rosharans, but they (presumably) have a home base at Silverlight that is like a University where they gather and analyze knowledge then publish and teach it to others.  Compare that to the Ghostbloods who probably are on the downlow everywhere they operate. Khriss and Nahz keep their worldhopper status a secret, but all worldhoppers we've met try to keep that a secret. 

On 8/4/2022 at 6:50 PM, Elegy said:

There's a common theory that there might be a Shin organization that keeps the honorblades. Nothing's confirmed though.

Yeah, the Stone Shamans or a subset of them seem to be in charge of the Honorblades. That's another tough one because Shinovar is so isolated by geography and conscious choice that their whole society is nearly a secret one.  They are a society that is keeping a huge secret, the Honorblades. However, I don't know if it's much of a secret in Shinovar. That merchant in Rysn's WoK interlude knew all about Szeth the Truthless.  Although he was the one who traded the Oathstone to send Szeth out into the rest of Roshar so he may not be just a random merchant they picked. 

Shinovar as a whole would almost have to be the secret society forbidden from discussing it's activities with the outside world. Then again we have only met 3 Shin: Szeth who is insane, a merchant that didn't say a lot and Sixteen who only exits his room in Lasting Integrity to check his notes in the statue garden once in a while. It's hard to say who all knows what in Shinovar. 

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

and Sixteen who only exits his room in Lasting Integrity to check his notes in the statue garden once in a while.

I'm pretty sure Sixteen isn't Shin - Shallan only thought he was Shin because of the lack of epicanthic fold on his eyes. The name implies Scadrial as his homeworld

Spoiler

Spriy

Is the guy in Lasting Integrity named Sixteen a worldhopper? (The kandra worldhopper, perhaps?)

Brandon Sanderson

He is a worldhopper, but I won't reveal anything more than that currently.

 

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I'm pretty sure Sixteen isn't Shin - Shallan only thought he was Shin because of the lack of epicanthic fold on his eyes. The name implies Scadrial as his homeworld

  Hide contents

Spriy

Is the guy in Lasting Integrity named Sixteen a worldhopper? (The kandra worldhopper, perhaps?)

Brandon Sanderson

He is a worldhopper, but I won't reveal anything more than that currently.

 

Ah, that makes sense. I remember him being super weird, not taking any food into his room and rarely leaving it.

[Returned]

We have a few other options too, even if they don't have official names yet. I would consider the refugee Listeners to be a possibility, as well as whatever group or ideology Leshwi is revealed to be a part of at the end of Rhythm. Every extant Shard would conceivably count as well, at least if they were operating on Roshar in Oathbringer. We have several nations and important families which are pursuing their own goals in secret-- the Horneaters have an awful lot of insight into the nature of things on Roshar, for example.

Honestly, this is the kind of WoB that I hate. Not that that will stop me from trying to figure it out... but unless and until the ninth group (or any of others) does something relevant to the plot of Stormlight or any other series, any one candidate is as likely and plausible as any other, and virtually anyone we've seen or had described is a plausible candidate.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Returned

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, Returned said:

We have a few other options too, even if they don't have official names yet. I would consider the refugee Listeners to be a possibility, as well as whatever group or ideology Leshwi is revealed to be a part of at the end of Rhythm.

I think "currently" means "as of WoR" though since the WOB is from 2014.

[Treamayne]

On 8/4/2022 at 7:50 PM, Elegy said:

There's a common theory that there might be a Shin organization that keeps the honorblades. Nothing's confirmed though.

There is also the possibility that the Envisagers don't count, since they seem to be an offshoot/splinter group of the Songs of Honor:

Which would mean that there could be one more secret society yet again.

Note that in the WoB you quoted, he said the relationship was backward - so it's more likely the Sons were an offshoot of the Envisagers.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think "currently" means "as of WoR" though since the WOB is from 2014.

Very true, so the Set may or may not be viable, depending on how active and prolific they were before the events we first saw them.

Another possibility - Ishar's group. I doubt all Tukari are in on his twisted Spren experiments - so that may count as a secret society if he's built a specific cult to hunt spren in Shadesmar.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Treamayne
Stupidity

[Elegy he/him]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Note that in the WoB you quoted, he said the relationship was backward - so it's more likely the Sons were an offshoot of the Envisagers.

The original question was if the Sons of Honor are a splinter group of the Envisagers, so when he says it's backwards, it means that the Envisagers are more likely a splinter group of the Sons of Honor - I can see how the phrasing is confusing though ^^

Good point with the Turaki! That's a good possibility 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Elegy

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, Elegy said:

The original question was if the Sons of Honor are a splinter group of the Envisagers, so when he says it's backwards, it means that the Envisagers are more likely a splinter group of the Sons of Honor - I can see how the phrasing is confusing though

Duh Me

[Benkinsky they/them]

There's also Rall Elorim. Did we know about it already by WoR? We still don't know much, we just know it's the City of Shadows, which sure sounds like it could have created a secret society. Especially if the theory about Ba-Ado-Mishram being located in Rall Elorim is correct, it would make sense that the old Knights Radiant created some kind of secret group to keep that secret, similar to the Sleepless protecting the Dawnshard.

[cometaryorbit]

I wonder if the Ire really count as 'on Roshar'.

I doubt the Set is involved on Roshar, but mostly for out-of-story reasons: they seem Shard backed (most likely Autonomy) and we already have three Shards involved. While the Set might be active on other (less cosmere relevant) planets, I think they're going to be a Mistborn storyline and not seen on Roshar or Nalthis or Sel.

(I also actually think "the Set" per se - as opposed to "agents of Autonomy" more generally- is a Scadrial-only organization, not a worldhopping one. They have off-world backers - those red eyed "Faceless Immortals" - but I think the actual Set hierarchy is all Scadrian. The names- Set, Sequence, Array etc. - sound rather mathematical and modern.)

Edited August 10, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Yumiya]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:03 AM, Child of Hodor said:

I remember him being super weird, not taking any food into his room and rarely leaving it.

If he does not eat, does not bathe, does not seem to produce waste, what is he? A cognitive shadow? The 16 clue does indicate scadrial, but who? Not Preservation or Ruin's Vessels... Kelsier would not act like that. Maybe someone trying to avoid the set? Who would have been invested enough when they died to create a CS?

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, Yumiya said:

If he does not eat, does not bathe, does not seem to produce waste, what is he? A cognitive shadow? The 16 clue does indicate scadrial, but who? Not Preservation or Ruin's Vessels... Kelsier would not act like that. Maybe someone trying to avoid the set? Who would have been invested enough when they died to create a CS?

F-Bendalloy (Subsumer) stores calories and nutrition. In fact, if he was a compounder he could not need any food (and therefore not produce waste).

[Yumiya]

15 hours ago, Treamayne said:

In fact, if he was a compounder he could not need any food 

that would explain food and waste issue. But what about bathing? Even a Bendalloy compounder would start to smell after a while without baths.

 

[Treamayne]

On 8/12/2022 at 9:11 AM, Yumiya said:

that would explain food and waste issue. But what about bathing? Even a Bendalloy compounder would start to smell after a while without baths.

Sure, according to modern sensibilities. In an environment that is pleasantly cool where no hard labor is being performed (so you don't sweat much, if at all), while living in a time and place that doesn't nearly have the tendency to daily (weekly/monthly) bathing that modern society does; it's not so strange.

Also, keep in mind that this is the most unreliable narrator (Shallan) and she does not say "he doesn't bathe" - just that nobody she spoke to knew how/when/why. (Ch 75)

Spoiler

The target called himself “Sixteen.” He supposedly came out of his home once every sixteen days exactly—the regularity of it amused the honorspren, who suffered the odd fellow because of the novelty. No one knew how he survived without food, and no one reported a terrible stench or anything like that from him—though he didn’t ever seem to bathe or empty a chamber pot. Indeed, the more she’d learned about him, the more Veil was certain this mysterious man was her target.

His home was a small box built near the statue garden. Veil had made a habit of visiting this garden, where she tried to coax Shallan out by drawing. It worked occasionally, though Shallan usually retreated after a half hour or so of sketching.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAGF

[Returned]

On 8/9/2022 at 7:55 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I think "currently" means "as of WoR" though since the WOB is from 2014.

Both of the groups I mentioned would have existed during WoR (with some potential fudging for Leshwi's, but her "finally forgiven us" suggests a well-aged idea), so they're at least potentially included in the groups.

But that's exactly why I dislike this kind of WoB tease-- it could be anybody we've seen or haven't seen because so much remains unwritten and unexplained while any degree of travel is workable (even through time!). And it may or may not include any of the groups we've definitely seen, depending on whether or not they're "secret" enough. I like speculating about the Cosmere as much as most people here do, but this question is an algebra problem with too few values defined to actually evaluate. Thinking it out is still fun but it's hard to see that we could make much definitive progress absent more WoB comments or new books/novellas/short stories.

[cometaryorbit]

On 8/15/2022 at 0:55 PM, Returned said:

Both of the groups I mentioned would have existed during WoR (with some potential fudging for Leshwi's, but her "finally forgiven us" suggests a well-aged idea), so they're at least potentially included in the groups.

Hmmm, I guess the fugitive listeners could count as "secret" at the very end of WoR...

It might just be the Worldsingers though.

[Returned]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmmm, I guess the fugitive listeners could count as "secret" at the very end of WoR...

It might just be the Worldsingers though.

I mean, any guess is really as good as any other at this point. But the Worldsingers aren't secret at all, are they? Even a lowly bridgman knew that they existed and a bit about what they did. Shallan had hopes that one would be at her Middlefest fair as a child. They're way less of a secret than a group of hunted refugees which is presumed to have been wiped out in the chasms.