Why can’t a seeker see a person tapping metalminds?

[hgleclair]

If a seeker can see kinetic investiture, why could they not see someone tapping their metalminds, if a leeches could stop this, or a duralumin/nicroburst could effect this theoretically (which I think was mentioned in a WoB, but could be making that up.) 
Am I missing something? 
 

Edit: For context, this question came up on a relisten of BoM when Wayne mentions Rotten Tomato to get in, so they don’t alert a Seeker with Wax’s allomancy.

Edited July 20, 2022 by hgleclair

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, hgleclair said:

If a seeker can see kinetic investiture, why could they not see someone tapping their metalminds, if a leeches could stop this, or a duralumin/nicroburst could effect this theoretically (which I think was mentioned in a WoB, but could be making that up.) 
Am I missing something?

Edit: For context, this question came up on a re-listen of BoM when Wayne mentions Rotten Tomato to get in, so they don’t alert a Seeker with Wax’s allomancy.

BLUF: You can. . .

Here are the references from WoB and Coppermind:

Spoiler

Quote

zas678

Can you detect Feruchemy with bronze Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually possible but it's very difficult. There's a tweak that you need to do to make it work and I haven't talked about that yet. They do not know how to do it… on Scadrial. But you can theoretically detect all kinds of active Investiture. Investiture that's being used. Kinetic Investiture would be the way to call it.

Quote

Detecting Investiture

It is theoretically possible for bronze Allomancy to detect any kinetic Investiture,^[9][10] though it has trouble finding inactive wells of power.^[11] Bronze can detect:

• Feruchemy^[10]
• Surgebinding, including being able differentiate between Surges^[12]
• AonDor^[13]
• Awakening^[13]
• The Rhythms of Roshar^[14]
• Shardblades when summoned^[15]

 

The key there is the phrase "They don't yet know how" - so in BoM if the Set had figured this out then W&W would have been in a bit of a pickle.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Treamayne
Formatting

[Quantus he/him]

That's interesting.  Id assumed it was just an issue of feruchemy being so low power that it would be too "quiet" to detect (similar to Lightweaving that time).  But there's got to be more to it if there's a specific tweak needed...perhaps you have to have some basic Connection to the location or Investiture to hear it.  So you wouldn't hear the Rhythms on Roshar until you had an appropriate Connection to the planet or its people, etc. 

[cometaryorbit]

I wonder if it's a wavelength thing - Feruchemy is on a different frequency/wavelength range than Allomancy, so bronzesense tuned to Allomancy doesn't pick it up by default?

Like being tuned to a different radio station, or high pitched sounds that are on the edge of the human hearing range?

EDIT: there's a WoB that a Leecher could affect a Compounder's metalminds, but it's not clear if this means only metals in the body (swallowed/piercings) or also regular worn metalminds.

Edited July 20, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[offer]

30 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I wonder if it's a wavelength thing - Feruchemy is on a different frequency/wavelength range than Allomancy, so bronzesense tuned to Allomancy doesn't pick it up by default?

Like being tuned to a different radio station, or high pitched sounds that are on the edge of the human hearing range?

Maybe the different "wavelengths" are differents types of investiture. We saw seekers detect allomancy (=Preservation`s inverstiture) using Preservation`s investiture. And the other example we have of "detection magic" is lifesense which uses Endowment investiture to detect bio-chromatic breath. I am not exactly sure how to understand the spy spren who detect surges in this way.

 

If it is true maybe in order to detect other shard`s investiture you need to use this shards investiture to fuel your magic. so if you could use breath to power allomancy a seeker will get lifesense.

 

Edit:

I am also not sure how White Sand works in this frame. So my theory has a lot of holes and is probably wrong

Edited July 20, 2022 by offer

[Some Random Spren he/him]

note to remember regarding seeking: parshendi seekers would find the bronzepulses familiar

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Quantus said:

 But there's got to be more to it if there's a specific tweak needed...perhaps you have to have some basic Connection to the location or Investiture to hear it.  So you wouldn't hear the Rhythms on Roshar until you had an appropriate Connection to the planet or its people, etc. 

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I wonder if it's a wavelength thing - Feruchemy is on a different frequency/wavelength range than Allomancy, so bronzesense tuned to Allomancy doesn't pick it up by default?

5 hours ago, offer said:

If it is true maybe in order to detect other shard`s investiture you need to use this shards investiture to fuel your magic. so if you could use breath to power allomancy a seeker will get lifesense.

So, in the interest of Brainstorming, what if:

• We consider that A-Bronze defaults to work on the Rhytm of Preservation
• Bronze pulses are all variations on that Rhythm
• Ferchemy is a balance between Preservation and Ruin
• Therefore: Intent, plus attuning the Rhythm of Harmony should result in hearing Feruchemical pulses

SA Spoilers:

Spoiler

 

Much as how Towerlight is the combination of Stormlight (Honorlight) and Lifelight (Cultivationlight); and the Rhythm of War is the harmonic of the Rhythm of Honor and the Rhythm of Odium 

- The Rhythm of Feruchemy would be a combination of the two forces it is balanced between. 

 

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

That seems to be the right line of thought given that strong Bronze Allomancy can hear the Well's pulsing which is a Pure Tone of Scadrial - thus Preservation's Tone.

But different Allomantic metals have different bronzepulses, so even though Allomancy is a purely Preservation system they can't just be Preservation's tone.

[Quantus he/him]

13 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

That seems to be the right line of thought given that strong Bronze Allomancy can hear the Well's pulsing which is a Pure Tone of Scadrial - thus Preservation's Tone.

But different Allomantic metals have different bronzepulses, so even though Allomancy is a purely Preservation system they can't just be Preservation's tone.

 

14 hours ago, Treamayne said:

So, in the interest of Brainstorming, what if:

• We consider that A-Bronze defaults to work on the Rhytm of Preservation
• Bronze pulses are all variations on that Rhythm
• Ferchemy is a balance between Preservation and Ruin
• Therefore: Intent, plus attuning the Rhythm of Harmony should result in hearing Feruchemical pulses

SA Spoilers:

  Hide contents

 

Much as how Towerlight is the combination of Stormlight (Honorlight) and Lifelight (Cultivationlight); and the Rhythm of War is the harmonic of the Rhythm of Honor and the Rhythm of Odium 

- The Rhythm of Feruchemy would be a combination of the two forces it is balanced between. 

 

 

 

Intent is probably a big part of it, but maybe there's going to be an investitute and Connection requirement to attune it, the way Singers need a voidspren to hear odium's variation Rhythms.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Intent is probably a big part of it, but maybe there's going to be an investitute and Connection requirement to attune it, the way Singers need a voidspren to hear odium's variation Rhythms.

I guess it is two-fold, not  only finding the harmony between the Rhytms of Preservation and Ruin (Which may, or may not, be th esame as the Rhythm of Harmony) and intent (SA Spoiler):

Spoiler

The way that Intent is required to create anti-light or the Odium Anti-Rhythm Navani used in the plate against Moash

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

That seems to be the right line of thought given that strong Bronze Allomancy can hear the Well's pulsing which is a Pure Tone of Scadrial - thus Preservation's Tone.

But different Allomantic metals have different bronzepulses, so even though Allomancy is a purely Preservation system they can't just be Preservation's tone.

That was why I said "variations on the Rhythm," but also consider this:

If you look at a song it will be made up of notes in a pattern that may change tempo and timing. What if the sixteen metal pulses were made up of 8 sets of notes (doubled with 1 each of the spiritual componenet of pushing and pulling*) and those 8 sets of pulses together are the Rhythm of Preservation. So, a Seeker "hearing" a bronze pulse is only hearing that measure from the rhythm that corresponds to the active kinetic investiture being detected. 

 

[Some Random Spren he/him]

iirc a-bronze can pick up any active investiture use similar to how white sand can so i don't think changing intent is the tweak

although dont get me wrong it still could be

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Some Random Spren said:

IIRC a-bronze can pick up any active investiture use, similar to how white sand can; so I don't think changing intent is the tweak

although don't get me wrong it still could be

The WoB about that was already quoted above which is why we know that a tweak of some kind is needed to detect kinetic investiture other than Allomancy. Intent is only suggested as one possibility for what may necessary, since we don't yet know what the "tweak" is - but we do know that you cannot create anti0light without Intent (which implies that knowledge that such is possible)

[Some Random Spren he/him]

oh right i think i misread the wob, sorry