Voidbinding, Old Magic “Cousin”, was on Ashyn

[+Child of Hodor]

TL;DR The Old Magic is reminiscent of Ashyn’s disease-based Magic. Ashyn Magic is the mysterious Voidbinding.
As we all know the Old Magic is a “cousin” to Voidbinding and it’s “10 Levels”. OK no one but Khriss seems to know this. (WoK Ars arcanum)

I think this helps us figure out what Voidbinding is and who was doing it. 

Old Magic is when Nightwatcher gives you something good, a Boon, and something bad, a Bane.

Ashyn’s semi-canon Magic system is diseased-based. You can get something good, Magic, only if you have something bad, a disease.

Brandon already confirmed they are related. Although one could always push back and say he meant “In any way”. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12681

Why Call It Old Magic?

Early humans on Roshar encountered the Nightwatcher and it reminded them of Ashyn magic because you have to get something bad in order to get something good.

 Odium made the Fused and humans aligned with Honor and Cultivation. As part of their effort to bury their history as the Voidbringers the humans would of course not refer to the Nightwatcher’s Boon/Bane as Voidbinding (both the Spren and Cultivation would not appreciate it. So they called it the Old Magic instead.

10 Levels?

Yes, 10 because for all of the Roshar system except for Braize the “magic number” is 10. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33/#e2745
Voidbinding was on Ashyn where Odium tempted a “Bondsmith” to experiment with the surges (per Syl in RoW interlude 1). Thus not limited to 9.

Odium is trapped on Braize which is limited to 9. That’s why the Fused orders / surges are capped at 9.
Binding?

We associate binding with Honor and Honor was not on Ashyn. Why call it voidbinding? Well we know Dawnshards we’re involved with Ashyn’s destruction (OB ch. 38) and Rosharan history speaks of a Dawnshard that could “bind any creature voidish or mortal” (WoK ch 36) epigraph.

Who did the voidbinding? The voidbringers of course! Using the Dawnshard that binds on Ashyn

Edited July 3, 2022 by Child of Hodor

[Frustration he/him]

The Ashynites used Surgebinding.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

 Why Call It Old Magic?

Early humans on Roshar encountered the Nightwatcher and it reminded them of Ashyn magic because you have to get something bad in order to get something good.

The problem with that theory is that it assumes that Ashynite magic was already disease based back then. That people were users of specific Surges and that the Eila speaks about Surges and Spren makes thatr rather unlikely.

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/3/2022 at 0:57 PM, Frustration said:

The Ashynites used Surgebinding.

Do we have a Brandon quote confirming that's not the Rosharan broad use of the term; like we do with Fused Surgebinding?

I know there's one calling it "manipulation of Surges" but some fabrials manipulate Surges, and Voidbinding likely does too.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Do we have a Brandon quote confirming that's not the Rosharan broad use of the term; like we do with Fused Surgebinding?

I know there's one calling it "manipulation of Surges" but some fabrials manipulate Surges, and Voidbinding likely does too.

They had Bondsmiths, and the sleepless said that it was Dawnshards and surgebinding that destroyed Ashyn.

Also why would Voidbinding manipulate surges?

[cometaryorbit]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They had Bondsmiths, and the sleepless said that it was Dawnshards and surgebinding that destroyed Ashyn.

Also why would Voidbinding manipulate surges?

"Surgebinding" can be used by Rosharans for magic in general, just like anything non-Physical is a "spren" to them.

There's specifically a WOB that Bondsmith is both an Order of KR and a power that exists outside that order (just like Lightweaving).

The Voidbinding chart mirrors the Surgebinding chart, and Renarins future sight seems like a Voidy Illumination.

EDIT: I think pretty much all the magic in the Greater Roshar system is some interpretation or version of the Surges.

("Pretty much" because of the Old Magic and some fabrial effects- though others seem pretty Surge linked. But anything which isnt the spren itself doing the magic, at least. I'd say skyeel flight and chasmfiends not crushing themselves are Gravitation, the singer method of growing plants with rhythm and light is Progression, etc.)

Edited July 5, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

"Surgebinding" can be used by Rosharans for magic in general, just like anything non-Physical is a "spren" to them.

The Sleepless are Cosmere aware though, and aren't even from Roshar.

10 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

The Voidbinding chart mirrors the Surgebinding chart, and Renarins future sight seems like a Voidy Illumination.

The Feruchemical metals and Allomantic metals are the same too.

[cometaryorbit]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Sleepless are Cosmere aware though, and aren't even from Roshar.

True but they are speaking a Rosharan language to a Rosharan.

Admittedly Voidbinding is remembered at least as a word, but the current Vorin concept of "Voidbinding" may be so corrupted/mythified that it has little correlation to the real thing - apparently people think it basically means future sight, which obviously couldn't blow up a planet.

Or both are true, as in my Voidbinding theory where Voidbinding (like Hemalurgy) is more a way to access powers than a power set.

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Feruchemical metals and Allomantic metals are the same too.

Yeah, that's exactly the same analogy I had in mind... different magic systems, but operating on the same basic set of Surges/metals.

Using Gravitation through Voidbinding wouldn't do the same thing as using it through (regular) Surgebinding, but there probably is a Voidbinding Gravitation. Etc.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, that's exactly the same analogy I had in mind... different magic systems, but operating on the same basic set of Surges/metals.

Using Gravitation through Voidbinding wouldn't do the same thing as using it through (regular) Surgebinding, but there probably is a Voidbinding Gravitation. Etc.

That would be equivelent to the allomantic and feruchemical powers being the same.

The same metals is more reminicent of Surgebinders and Voidbinders using the same lights.

[cometaryorbit]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That would be equivelent to the allomantic and feruchemical powers being the same.

I was thinking more like Pewter Allomancy vs Pewter Feruchemy- both broadly "strength" but very different in detail.

Or even maybe Nicrosil Allomancy vs Feruchemy- different powers but similar 'theme'

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I was thinking more like Pewter Allomancy vs Pewter Feruchemy- both broadly "strength" but very different in detail.

Or even maybe Nicrosil Allomancy vs Feruchemy- different powers but similar 'theme'

That's just fused vs Radiant surgebinding again.

[cometaryorbit]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's just fused vs Radiant surgebinding again.

Well, I disagree, but I don't think we have enough information to say much more than that ... except perhaps that I think "same magic system" is a loose concept subject to argument. Are Forgery and Bloodsealing the same system or not? Isn't there even a WOB that some would consider all the Selish magic systems variants of one system?

I don't agree with this theory exactly, but I think it's close.

IMO all the Greater Roshar Invested Arts are variants on the theme if the ten Surges. I don't really think old Ashyn magic was identical to modern Voidbinding- given that per WoB Sja-anat didn't corrupt Radiant spren in the past, I don't even think modern Renarin style Voidbinding is identical to historical Voidbinding - but its being similar makes a ton of sense to me given Odiums influence on Ashyn.