Singer Savants

[Sjsharks93]

Would it be reasonable to assume that all of the Singers (and probably all of the Heralds) are savants, from the lifetimes of using their powers? Or would the changes that come be reset through each rebirth? I'm curious to get the thoughts of others.

[NameIess]

The Heralds and the Fused are probably protected from the negative effects of Savantism, as otherwise those who could soulcast would show obvious signs. The changes from savantism effect the soul, so unless the Heralds and Fused are completely shielded from the effects somehow, they should all be savants.

[Sjsharks93]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Heralds and the Fused are probably protected from the negative effects of Savantism, as otherwise those who could soulcast would show obvious signs. The changes from savantism effect the soul, so unless the Heralds and Fused are completely shielded from the effects somehow, they should all be savants.

Yeah them being protected would make sense, seeing as how spren can prevent their radiants from the negative effects. I would assume Shards can do at least that much.

[NameIess]

Just now, sjsharks93 said:

Yeah them being protected would make sense, seeing as how spren can prevent their radiants from the negative effects. I would assume Shards can do at least that much.

Yep. Unless you count the insanity that comes from a long life, which seems to me to be similar to savantism. The Investiture required to be a cognitive shadow warps their souls.

[Sjsharks93]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yep. Unless you count the insanity that comes from a long life, which seems to me to be similar to savantism. The Investiture required to be a cognitive shadow warps their souls.

Huh, this does bring up an interesting point. Why haven't the shards done anything to help here? We know that spren can't help with the insanity, because Nale is a Skybreaker and very insane. Unless he bonded his spren after his mind broke, which would really just make me judge the spren more.

[NameIess]

Just now, sjsharks93 said:

Huh, this does bring up an interesting point. Why haven't the shards done anything to help here? We know that spren can't help with the insanity, because Nale is a Skybreaker and very insane. Unless he bonded his spren after his mind broke, which would really just make me judge the spren more.

Well, Odium might not really care, and Honor might have been too busy fighting Odium/was already dead by the time it became a problem.

[Sjsharks93]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Well, Odium might not really care, and Honor might have been too busy fighting Odium/was already dead by the time it became a problem.

Yeah, that's fair. Do we know how long it takes for the mind to start to break? Like is it in the 100s of years or the 1000s

[NameIess]

Just now, sjsharks93 said:

Yeah, that's fair. Do we know how long it takes for the mind to start to break? Like is it in the 100s of years or the 1000s

I don't think we do. Hundreds of years at least, given that 

(Warbeaker)

Spoiler

Vasher's been around for at least a couple hundred, and he doesn't seem to display any insanity like the Heralds

In any case, it also depends on the person, as Leshwi has managed to stay almost entirely sane, while others among the fused are entirely insane.

[Sjsharks93]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't think we do. Hundreds of years at least, given that 

(Warbeaker)

  Reveal hidden contents

Vasher's been around for at least a couple hundred, and he doesn't seem to display any insanity like the Heralds

In any case, it also depends on the person, as Leshwi has managed to stay almost entirely sane, while others among the fused are entirely insane.

I had always assumed that (Warbreaker)

Spoiler

Vasher uses the same trick as Hoid, as it is Breath related

Although he may not be old enough for it to matter yet.

[NameIess]

Just now, Sjsharks93 said:

I had always assumed that (Warbreaker)

  Reveal hidden contents

Vasher uses the same trick as Hoid, as it is Breath related

Although he may not be old enough for it to matter yet.

That is a possibility, but given how long some Fused have maintained a semblance of sanity, it's probably not necessary yet.

[Treamayne]

Well, Raboniel does imply that soul damage is the cause (or primary factor) of insanity in the Fused.

Quote

“No. If I … die … I will return … mad. My soul … is burned … almost all away.…

RoW Ch 113

Spoiler

 

Navani gasped. “Raboniel?”

“You … lived. Good.” One of her hands twitched; it seemed that Moash had cut her with his Blade low enough that it hadn’t burned out her eyes, though one arm and both legs were obviously dead.

Navani raised her hand to her lips.

“Do … not … weep,” Raboniel whispered. “I … would have killed … you … to accomplish … my goal.”

“Instead, you saved me.”

Raboniel breathed in a shallow breath, but said nothing.

“We’ll meet again,” Navani said. “You will be reborn.”

“No. If I … die … I will return … mad. My soul … is burned … almost all away.… Do not … Please … Please…”

“What, then?” Navani said.

“This new Light … works. My daughter … is truly gone. So I made … more … anti … anti…”

“Anti-Voidlight. Where?”

Raboniel rocked her head to the side, toward her desk, situated in the hallway near the opening to the crystal pillar room. Navani rose and searched through the drawers, finding a black sack containing a diamond filled with the precious, terrible Light.

She returned and affixed the diamond to the dagger, which was wet with Moash’s blood. After cleaning it and reversing the metal strip, she knelt beside Raboniel.

“Are you sure?” Navani asked.

Raboniel nodded. Her hand twitched, and Navani reached over and held it, which made the Fused relax.

“I … have done … what I wished. Odium … is worried. He may … allow … an ending.…”

“Thank you,” Navani said softly.

“I never … thought … I would be sane … at the end.…”

Navani raised the dagger. And for the first time, she wondered if she was strong enough for this.

“I do wish…” Raboniel said, “I could hear … rhythms … again.…”

“Then sing with me,” Navani said, and began to sing Honor’s tone.

The Fused smiled, then managed a weak hum to Odium’s tone. Navani modulated her tone, lowering her voice, until the two snapped together in harmony one last time.

Navani positioned the dagger above the wound in Raboniel’s breast.

“End it … Navani…” Raboniel whispered, letting the song cease. “Make sure they let it all … end.”

“I will,” she whispered back, then—humming her best, holding the hand of a former immortal—Navani thrust the dagger in deep. Raboniel’s nerves had mostly been severed, so she didn’t spasm as her daughter had. Her eyes went a glassy marble white, and a breath escaped her lips—black smoke as her insides burned away. Navani kept humming until the smoke dissipated.

 

[Sjsharks93]

14 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Well, Raboniel does imply that soul damage is the cause (or primary factor) of insanity in the Fused.

RoW Ch 113

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Navani gasped. “Raboniel?”

“You … lived. Good.” One of her hands twitched; it seemed that Moash had cut her with his Blade low enough that it hadn’t burned out her eyes, though one arm and both legs were obviously dead.

Navani raised her hand to her lips.

“Do … not … weep,” Raboniel whispered. “I … would have killed … you … to accomplish … my goal.”

“Instead, you saved me.”

Raboniel breathed in a shallow breath, but said nothing.

“We’ll meet again,” Navani said. “You will be reborn.”

“No. If I … die … I will return … mad. My soul … is burned … almost all away.… Do not … Please … Please…”

“What, then?” Navani said.

“This new Light … works. My daughter … is truly gone. So I made … more … anti … anti…”

“Anti-Voidlight. Where?”

Raboniel rocked her head to the side, toward her desk, situated in the hallway near the opening to the crystal pillar room. Navani rose and searched through the drawers, finding a black sack containing a diamond filled with the precious, terrible Light.

She returned and affixed the diamond to the dagger, which was wet with Moash’s blood. After cleaning it and reversing the metal strip, she knelt beside Raboniel.

“Are you sure?” Navani asked.

Raboniel nodded. Her hand twitched, and Navani reached over and held it, which made the Fused relax.

“I … have done … what I wished. Odium … is worried. He may … allow … an ending.…”

“Thank you,” Navani said softly.

“I never … thought … I would be sane … at the end.…”

Navani raised the dagger. And for the first time, she wondered if she was strong enough for this.

“I do wish…” Raboniel said, “I could hear … rhythms … again.…”

“Then sing with me,” Navani said, and began to sing Honor’s tone.

The Fused smiled, then managed a weak hum to Odium’s tone. Navani modulated her tone, lowering her voice, until the two snapped together in harmony one last time.

Navani positioned the dagger above the wound in Raboniel’s breast.

“End it … Navani…” Raboniel whispered, letting the song cease. “Make sure they let it all … end.”

“I will,” she whispered back, then—humming her best, holding the hand of a former immortal—Navani thrust the dagger in deep. Raboniel’s nerves had mostly been severed, so she didn’t spasm as her daughter had. Her eyes went a glassy marble white, and a breath escaped her lips—black smoke as her insides burned away. Navani kept humming until the smoke dissipated.

 

 

That is very interesting that it seems to be different for different people. Since we know that Hoid 

Spoiler

stores his memories to stop them from overwhelming him and driving him insane.

I guess you could add all the torture to the insanity of the Heralds too.

[+ShardlessVessel]

On 28/05/2022 at 11:15 PM, Nameless said:

I don't think we do. Hundreds of years at least, given that 

(Warbeaker)

  Hide contents

Vasher's been around for at least a couple hundred, and he doesn't seem to display any insanity like the Heralds

In any case, it also depends on the person, as Leshwi has managed to stay almost entirely sane, while others among the fused are entirely insane.

I don't think the Heralds' insanity is a universal phenomenon that afflicts all cognitive shadows. I've always assumed that it's specific to them and linked to whatever is wrong with Roshar as a whole.

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

I don't think the Heralds' insanity is a universal phenomenon that afflicts all cognitive shadows. I've always assumed that it's specific to them and linked to whatever is wrong with Roshar as a whole.

Shards show some of the same effects. Their cognitive aspects get worn down over the years until they're more the power than they are the person. The herald's insanity is specific to them, but every immortal being we've seen either has an explanation as to why they're not insane yet, is worried about being insane, (Like Thaidakar) or is insane.

[cometaryorbit]

I think Fused and Heralds probably don't get human-style savantism because they're not human enough -- they're Cognitive Shadows, their spiritwebs are already totally infused with Odium's or Honor's Investiture.

[+ShardlessVessel]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think Fused and Heralds probably don't get human-style savantism because they're not human enough -- they're Cognitive Shadows, their spiritwebs are already totally infused with Odium's or Honor's Investiture.

Or from a different perspective, they are already savants.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah it might be another version of the same thing- the soul/spiritweb becoming infused & transformed by the "outside" Investiture. But I think the symptoms at least would be different -- maybe more like the Intent warping effect seen for Shards, on a smaller scale.

That Intent effect is apparently different than the Fused/Herald insanity -- it seems that the Fused/Herald insanity is due to many rebirths (the Stormfather says "each rebirth further injures their minds") and soul damage (as @Treamaynequoted above), likely due to torture in the case of the Heralds (the Stormfather refers to their souls being "worn thin").

[mathiau he/him]

Phasing through walls, increasing muscle mass and floating without consuming light seems a lot like Savant abilities of Cohesion, Progression and Gravitation. (Arguably the floating one could be a Savantism drawback, as it'd mean you wouldn't be able to chose where you go without using Gravitation)

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, mathiau said:

Phasing through walls, increasing muscle mass and floating without consuming light seems a lot like Savant abilities of Cohesion, Progression and Gravitation. (Arguably the floating one could be a Savantism drawback, as it'd mean you wouldn't be able to chose where you go without using Gravitation)

I don't think Savantism is involved. As Raboniel explains - humans (not native to Roshar) leak light. However Singers (native to Roshar) do not leak - so as long as the investiture stays inside the body (Lashing yourself to float, Melding Axi to the floor), it isn't consumed - except when spent to "change" such as healing. That's why the Pursuer uses so much light he can only use the Surge of Transportation three times before needing more light (light consumed to leave a husk and move elsewhere). Same with the Masked ones, where light is consumed in the illusion; but for a Heavenly One, light is only consumed when lashing something/someone else, using a reverse lashing, or healing.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Treamayne

[Wandering Shade]

On 6/2/2022 at 6:32 AM, Treamayne said:

I don't think Savantism is involved. As Raboniel explains - humans (not native to Roshar) leak light. However Singers (native to Roshar) do not leak - so as long as the investiture stays inside the body (Lashing yourself to float, Melding Axi to the floor), it isn't consumed - except when spent to "change" such as healing. That's why the Pursuer uses so much light he can only use the Surge of Transportation three times before needing more light (light consumed to leave a husk and move elsewhere). Same with the Masked ones, where light is consumed in the illusion; but for a Heavenly One, light is only consumed when lashing something/someone else, using a reverse lashing, or healing.

Heavenly Ones can't use Reverse Lashings, but otherwise yes I 100% agree that its mostly a thing of Singers being better Light holders.

[Treamayne]

16 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

Heavenly Ones can't use Reverse Lashings, but otherwise yes I 100% agree that its mostly a thing of Singers being better Light holders.

Okay. I could have sworn we saw a Skybreaker (Szeth?) use a reverse lashing in Edgedancer or Oathbringer; but maybe I was mis-remembering. I see the coppermind now says it is a combination of Gravitation and Adhesion (Since RoW makes that point with Kaladin). Doesn't affect the point of the post though - but it does make me curious if the Magnified Ones expend light for their carapace transformations. . .

[DiePie]

On 5/30/2022 at 0:28 PM, ShardlessVessel said:

I don't think the Heralds' insanity is a universal phenomenon that afflicts all cognitive shadows. I've always assumed that it's specific to them and linked to whatever is wrong with Roshar as a whole.

Considering how similar Taln's condition is to those suffering from the Reod in Elantris, I assumed that that kind of Insanity was more a result of pain + time. I doubt the rebirths helped either. iirc cognitive shadows are effected by people's perceptions of them, though I couldn't find the WoB. I did find this one, which could be of use:

Spoiler

celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain Cognitive Shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a Cognitive Shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are Cognitive Shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a Cognitive Shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Sept. 8, 2020)

I also think that the Heralds are stormlight savants (either because of a Syl line, or a WoB, where they say that the Heralds don't have the same protections that the Radiants do from the Nahel Bond).

Also keep in mind that Fused store Stormlight/Voidlight in their gemhearts, which could prevent them from becoming savants.

[cometaryorbit]

Hmm, are the Heralds tortured in physical bodies on Braize, or is it the actual Cognitive Shadow?

 

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, are the Heralds tortured in physical bodies on Braize, or is it the actual Cognitive Shadow?

From Khriss' Essay:

Quote

There are a whopping three planets in the habitable zone, all of which are inhabited to one extent or another. . . Farthest out of the three is Braize, which despite being cold and inhospitable to men is home to an ecosystem of self-aware Splinters. (The local parlance would call them spren.) I believe it’s possible some of these are actually Cognitive Shadows, but research here is difficult and dangerous, so I will hold back on theorizing for the moment.

So, it seems likely they are not in physical bodies while on Braize; though they may "experience" it similarly to Kaladin's "visions" of Braize in RoW.