theory Kelsier holds the Dawnshard of Survival

[WorldHopper Mailman]

this is another theory that I have had for a while but haven't done anything with.

             I think that in the pits of Hathsin the voice telling Kelsier to survive is actually him being granted a Dawnshard by preservation. my main reason for this is that he describes it as a command in an extremely similar way to when Rysn gets her Dawnshard. another reason I have for this is that preservation says that he was the one telling Kelsier to survive in the pits but the thing is that it is an important aspect of preservation that he cannot speak into the mind of people, only read them. however, the biggest reason I have for this is that throughout era 1 it is a very important thing that Leras couldn't ruin, even to preserve, we know that this isn't an aspect of the power because vin can still do it when she has the shard. what I'm saying is that the reason for Leras being unable to cause harm, even having his hand being forced when he stabs Elend, is that he held a Dawnshard, which prevents him from causing harm. Also who better to hold the Dawnshard of survival than the shard of preservation. now a larger part of my theory is why preservation would give a Dawnshard to Kelsier, I think that the reason for this is that in Leras's grand plan which we hear fuzz speak of in secret history is actually to form harmony and that in order to do that he needed to have Kelsier kill the lord ruler and so needed to give him motivation by saving him from death at Rashek's command, thus allowing the events of the rest of the series to take place, eventually resulting in Sazed becoming harmony. now you may ask if this was preservations plan all along, than why was Fuzz horrified when he found out that Kelsier had caused the lord rulers death. the answer to this is simple in that we hear Fuzz say that he doesn't remember the plan and know that he has progressively lost his mind.

            I'd like to know what holes you guys can see in this theory.

[cometaryorbit]

11 hours ago, I_am_a_stick said:

 another reason I have for this is that preservation says that he was the one telling Kelsier to survive in the pits but the thing is that it is an important aspect of preservation that he cannot speak into the mind of people, only read them. however, the biggest reason I have for this is that throughout era 1 it is a very important thing that Leras couldn't ruin, even to preserve, we know that this isn't an aspect of the power because vin can still do it when she has the shard.

I think Preservation could speak to Kelsier then since he was near death, the borders between Realms "thinning".

Vin could kill Ruin, when Leras couldn't, because she'd *just then* taken up the power - it hadn't molded her personality/mind yet.

If Vin had held Preservation for hundreds or thousands of years, she would have become like Leras.

--

It seems implied that a Dawnshard by itself gives Heightening like abilities, but combined with another Invested Art it's very dramatic. So I don't think Kelsier could have had one in Era 1, since his Allomancy wasn't supercharged.

[Duxredux he/him]

So... I have a few things that don't make sense to me. My first question is if this is how it went down, what happened to the Dawnshard? I'm assuming that if/when Rysn dies, she wouldn't take the Dawnshard with her into the Cognitive Realm and/or the Spiritual Realm. Did Kelsier somehow keep hold of it after dying? 

Second, the Pits of Hathsin was a few years before Kelsier died. Based on your timeline, Kelsier would have been the Dawnshard of Survival at that point, but he certainly didn't have any trouble whatsoever killing a whole lot of noblemen. Didn't even feel guilty about it until Vin shouted at him. If Preservation had issues with harming people, it would have been as a previous holder of the Dawnshard when we see him reluctant to hurt Elend, not the current holder.

 

My guesses for what you describe?

I think Vin needed the right Intent to crash her power into Ruin, killing them both. Leras was too weak having sacrificed his conscious to be a match for Ruin, and Kelsier wanted revenge, not anything remotely like preserving something. Vin I think did it to protect humanity, which is why it worked.

When Kelsier received the Command to SURVIVE, I think that may have been Preservation actively sealing the cracks in his soul, giving him the necessary fortitude to get out of the Pits. The reason that Preservation can't talk to people is because his very power seals up the cracks in souls, but I think maybe he could instill a message as the power of Preservation itself, namely to Survive. I could see the possibility that he wouldn't be able to communicate anything else, or to someone sane.

Edit: I think one of the Shardcasts theorizes that there is an alignment between the 16 Shards and the 4 Dawnshard Commands, despite them being able to be separate. You're on to some interesting things, and this is a really cool theory, I just don't see Kelsier having changed enough to be a Dawnshard. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Brandon left something this big in plain sight and the rest of us missed it. I totally missed everything that was in Secret History the first time I read HoA.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Duxredux
Added another thought

[LordFlea]

Theres always another secret. There is a dawnshard somewhere on Scadrial and Kelsier got it post era 1 or is still looking for it

[KaladinWorldsinger]

I find it very hard to believe that there was a dawnshard on the planet, but neither Ruin or Preservation used it in their very tight battle. It all depended on spook being able to hear kelsier in a dream to send a message that Marsh could read but hopefully still barely fight against ruin to pull out a DAMN EARING. The entire world depended on that earing. A dawnshard would have helped out lot somewhere i feel.

Also 'survive' doesn't sound like a dawnshard, 'live' or 'be' sounds like a dawnshard. 'survive' sounds too narrow you know?

[cometaryorbit]

On 5/5/2022 at 2:33 PM, Duxredux said:

I think Vin needed the right Intent to crash her power into Ruin, killing them both. Leras was too weak having sacrificed his conscious to be a match for Ruin, and Kelsier wanted revenge, not anything remotely like preserving something. Vin I think did it to protect humanity, which is why it worked.

Could be, but I think Vin was so new to the Shard that she could use the power without a lot of Intent limitations.

(Though apparently Rashek couldn't use the Well to kill Kwaan, so there are probably still some limits... OTOH using the Well might not be quite the same as holding the Shard itself.)

On 5/5/2022 at 2:33 PM, Duxredux said:

Edit: I think one of the Shardcasts theorizes that there is an alignment between the 16 Shards and the 4 Dawnshard Commands, despite them being able to be separate. You're on to some interesting things, and this is a really cool theory, I just don't see Kelsier having changed enough to be a Dawnshard.

I do think there is likely a Dawnshard Command of Remain or Be or Exist, something like that, linked to Preservation, Autonomy, etc. But I don't think it (or any Dawnshard) is on Scadrial (at least as of Era 1).

[LordFlea]

On 17/05/2022 at 9:36 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I find it very hard to believe that there was a dawnshard on the planet, but neither Ruin or Preservation used it in their very tight battle. It all depended on spook being able to hear kelsier in a dream to send a message that Marsh could read but hopefully still barely fight against ruin to pull out a DAMN EARING. The entire world depended on that earing. A dawnshard would have helped out lot somewhere i feel.

Unless Ati and Leras had a past agreement to not use the Dawnshard. I dont think Ati would be stupid enough to breach an agreement when victory was so close nor do I think a dawnshard like "Survive" would be particularly useful to him considering his Intent. Leras breaching an agreement with Ati would have spelled his doom much sooner