Cultivation and Odium Thought

[cometaryorbit]

Just occurred to me why Cultivation might prefer Taravangian to be Odium ... if he is bound by his oath to protect Kharbranth & its people, then he can't destroy Roshar (since destroying the planet would kill the people of Kharbranth). If Cultivation cares more about Roshar than the cosmere in general, she might see Taravangian-Odium free and wrecking other worlds but Roshar alive as preferable to Rayse-Odium destroying Roshar but still being trapped.

[Legui01010 he/him]

I don't think she is concerned with Roshar in itself, she seems to be concerned about Rayse being unable to properly control Odium, hence the need for a new Vessel (in this case Taravangian, who asked her for the means to save the world). All Shards can see into the future to some degree, but this possibilities could disappear if some action is done to do so (such as the presence of a Truthwatcher, which affects future - seeing abilities of the Shards, at least for Odium). Regarding Taravangian, he's not bound to protect Kharbranth, he just saw in his "highest" intelligence day that the only affordable deal he could strike with Odium was the survival of his city. His objectives now that he is a Shard though are unknown, we can speculate that he might see the other Shards as a danger to Roshar and will try to protect it (which might become complicated due to the deal Dalinar stroked with Rayse, which might mean a loophole in said deal for Taravangian to be released from Roshar), while the other Shards will see Taravangian as the highest threat to all worlds, now that Odium has found its perfect Vessel.

[Zapata]

I definitely think that oath to protect Kharbranth will show up again, but I don't think that's why Cultivation liked Taravangian. Rather I think it would be more likely that either Odium ends up breaking that oath or he fails somehow because he follows it.

[Bort he/him]

2 hours ago, Zapata said:

I definitely think that oath to protect Kharbranth will show up again, but I don't think that's why Cultivation liked Taravangian. Rather I think it would be more likely that either Odium ends up breaking that oath or he fails somehow because he follows it.

Ooh... That would be good. Forcing Todium to break his own word.

i wonder what that would do to a Shard, who are bound by their oaths.

[+Invocation]

4 hours ago, Legui01010 said:

Rayse being unable to properly control Odium, hence the need for a new Vessel

I agree with this, especially if Tarvangian's boon/bane intelligence thing persists in his Ascension, allowing him some measure of separation and distance from the overwhelming power of the Shard to keep him from Rayse-ing out.

[cometaryorbit]

14 minutes ago, Bort said:

Ooh... That would be good. Forcing Todium to break his own word.

i wonder what that would do to a Shard, who are bound by their oaths.

Apparently, according to Rayse/Odium anyway, it would make a hole in his spirit that would let Cultivation kill him. So I guess it weakens a Shard significantly, somehow, either making them more vulnerable via Connection or ripping out some Investiture or something?

EDIT: and I do think the power/Shard of Odium would still be bound by Rayse-Odium's oath to spare Kharbranth, even though that oath was to Taravangian.

Edited March 22, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Bort he/him]

There we go. Cultivation's plan to destroy Odium.

Force him into a situation where he has to break one of his own promises, much like I think Taravangian is going to do with Dalinar.

When he is weakened, get someone in to shatter his Shard.

[AerionBFII he/him]

I honestly think her mind is almost completely been corrupted by her Shard. We saw how flawed Ruin, Preservation and Odium became in regards to simply going along with the flow of their Shard. I think her intent was to create a Shard she could influence, shape and train for the War of The God's that is apparently coming. She is sentient enough to see the weakness of Rayse in that the discontent between him and his Shard gave her an opening but I think she grossly underestimated Taravangian, maybe the boon and curse she gave him will help balance out the Odium-ness(?) but I don't think she should take her eyes off her new student.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, AerionBFII said:

I honestly think her mind is almost completely been corrupted by her Shard. We saw how flawed Ruin, Preservation and Odium became in regards to simply going along with the flow of their Shard. I think her intent was to create a Shard she could influence, shape and train for the War of The God's that is apparently coming.

Oh, definitely; I think all the original Vessels are totally or almost totally shaped by their Shards now.

The goal being Cultivating another Shard hadn't occurred to me, though  - I was thinking about her plans for life on Roshar. That's a very good thought.

[Bort he/him]

16 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The goal being Cultivating another Shard hadn't occurred to me, though

I wonder if this has to do with Lift. I'm in the middle of a RoW reread, and couldn't help but spot the conversation she has with Wyndle, regarding what exactly she asked for when she went to the valley. She asked not to change, and Cultivation gave her a blessing. Yet, she is still growing, so thinks that Cultivation lied to her. What if she didn't though? What if the tweak she made to Lift means that Lift won't be affected by Shardic intent?

She would be the ultimate Shardholder, because she would always still be her.

[Legui01010 he/him]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

She would be the ultimate Shardholder, because she would always still be her.

If Cultivation's purpose truly was this, 1st: Lift might become among the most dangerous of the Shards (if she Ascends); 2nd: Cultivation has to be even more powerful than we know, if she is to "override" the will of Adonalsium (the fragment of it that is within the Shard).

19 hours ago, Bort said:

When he is weakened, get someone in to shatter his Shard.

That would mean an end to the Splintering of the remaining Shards, but what could be the repercussions of such action? If Odium becomes Splintered, someone might come into the possession of one of those Splinters (imagine Moash having a Splinter of Odium, not very pleasant). And we still don't know if the Shards can or cannot be Reforged, so there's that as well.

[Bort he/him]

5 minutes ago, Legui01010 said:

If Cultivation's purpose truly was this, 1st: Lift might become among the most dangerous of the Shards (if she Ascends); 2nd: Cultivation has to be even more powerful than we know, if she is to "override" the will of Adonalsium (the fragment of it that is within the Shard).

I don't think it's the will of Adonalsium, so much as one of It's divine attributes.

But given how the various magic systems work, I don't see why Cultivation couldn't "bless" Lift with something protecting her Intent, or Identity, whatever you want to call it, and preventing it from being altered by any outside source.

[Legui01010 he/him]

9 minutes ago, Bort said:

But given how the various magic systems work, I don't see why Cultivation couldn't "bless" Lift with something protecting her Intent, or Identity, whatever you want to call it, and preventing it from being altered by any outside source.

Never said she couldn't, just that she had to be more powerful than we knew. And if she could "bless" Lift, why not do so with herself or any of the other Shards? 

[Bort he/him]

11 minutes ago, Legui01010 said:

Never said she couldn't, just that she had to be more powerful than we knew. And if she could "bless" Lift, why not do so with herself or any of the other Shards? 

Well, we do know the Shards are basically infinitely powerful, and why not herself or the other Shards? Maybe she didn't realise what was happening until it was too late, and now she can't affect herself or the other Shards that way because they are already "corrupted." Maybe, it was seeing how Tanavast was changed by Honour's Intent that made her realise what was going on. By that point, it's too late for herself, Tanavast or Rayse, but she can take steps for the next generation of Shardbearers.

[CryoZenith he/him]

On 22.03.2022 at 5:31 PM, AerionBFII said:

I honestly think her mind is almost completely been corrupted by her Shard. We saw how flawed Ruin, Preservation and Odium became in regards to simply going along with the flow of their Shard. I think her intent was to create a Shard she could influence, shape and train for the War of The God's that is apparently coming. She is sentient enough to see the weakness of Rayse in that the discontent between him and his Shard gave her an opening but I think she grossly underestimated Taravangian, maybe the boon and curse she gave him will help balance out the Odium-ness(?) but I don't think she should take her eyes off her new student.

While I concede that it would make sense in terms of plot, and would be really interesting, I really dislike it conceptually in terms of the magic system. So I will keep assuming that Taravangian's boon/bane disappeared when he Ascended until proven otherwise (not necessarily IC, WoBs work too). Yes, I will feel really silly if I turn out to be wrong, but I'm biting the bullet.

(to be specific, there are three main issues with the boon/bane persisting, beyond even what it says about the power level of Cultivation's magic: 1. Since Todium is mostly in the SR, the concept of intelligence and empathy changing randomly every *day* doesn't really track to anything. 2. As a vessel, with the expanded mind customary to being a vessel, even "bad intelligence days" would manifest as high intelligence for Todium. 3. If Cultivation really is planning something that would put Todium in danger or put him under her control, all Todium needs is ONE "good intelligence day" to figure it all out.)

Edited March 23, 2022 by CryoZenith

[cometaryorbit]

I agree the daily change would be weird in the nearly timeless Spiritual.

I don't think it would mean Cultivation is more powerful than Odium though, since she made that change back when Taravangian was mortal. It can remain part of him as a Vessel.

My offhand guess though is that it is technically still present but no longer active or relevant,  overwritten by the expanded mind and Spiritual awareness of the Shard, unless Taravangian gave the Shard to someone else or something.

[AerionBFII he/him]

15 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

While I concede that it would make sense in terms of plot, and would be really interesting, I really dislike it conceptually in terms of the magic system. So I will keep assuming that Taravangian's boon/bane disappeared when he Ascended until proven otherwise (not necessarily IC, WoBs work too). Yes, I will feel really silly if I turn out to be wrong, but I'm biting the bullet.

(to be specific, there are three main issues with the boon/bane persisting, beyond even what it says about the power level of Cultivation's magic: 1. Since Todium is mostly in the SR, the concept of intelligence and empathy changing randomly every *day* doesn't really track to anything. 2. As a vessel, with the expanded mind customary to being a vessel, even "bad intelligence days" would manifest as high intelligence for Todium. 3. If Cultivation really is planning something that would put Todium in danger or put him under her control, all Todium needs is ONE "good intelligence day" to figure it all out.)

You dont have to feel silly if you are wrong, it’s all speculation at this point anyway. 
 

My only thought about Taravangian still being afflicted with Cultivation’s Boon and Curse is that it affects Taravangian pre ascension. I have no idea if he will remain affected by it. All the shards are equally as powerful with Cultivation being more experienced but Taravangian will be more ‘free’ to act’. 
 

If he is though I am curious how it will affect him because he was a little slower than normal when he ascended and he had difficultly staying in control of sodium’s shard. Maybe when he’s super smart he’d be more able to distance himself from the intent of the shard. 
 

my only request if it turns out you’re right please do t rub my nose in it  

Edited March 23, 2022 by AerionBFII

[Returned he/him]

My feeling is that Taravangian's Old Magic effects are mostly irrelevant after his ascension. We know from WoA and HoA that someone taking up a Shard has their mind radically expanded, we know that Odium previously had the ability to see into the future wildly beyond what the Diagram could offer, and Taravangian (even if at his stupidest) has a lot of experience following inscrutable hints about the future (from the Diagram) to accomplish his goals. And whether or not he retains his intense emotionality, we hear many times that Odium is passionate (or Passion!), and feels acutely. So I think that he's got a sufficient combination of intelligence, information, and feeling to at least be on par with Rayse-- Taravangian was able to do something even Hoid thought impossible pretty quickly. What he lacks relative to Rayse is experience with the power and knowledge of the other Shards, both of which seem likely to matter.

What seems to matter more to a Shardholder is their personality and Intention, at least in the early days before the Shards warp them too radically. I am concerned that Taravangian's cold pragmatism, which in RoW Dalinar states can be used to justify anything at all, coupled with infinite power and colored by hatred is going to lead to atrocities outside of Odium's own self-interest. Far more so than whether or not the Old Magic continues to adhere to him.

Since the only Shard we know of that can Splinter others is Odium, I think that swapping the persona holding the Odium Shard may be the best Cultivation could do in opposing him. Rayse-Odium does worry about Cultivation attacking him (according to the Stormfather), so maybe there are more options available than we currently know about.

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think Splintering is an ability unique to Odium. (Mistborn: Secret History)

Spoiler

Leras, when dying, says that his power would be Splintered by Ruin (but then Kelsier takes it up, preventing that).

So I think any Shard could do it to an "unattended" Shard, if Intent allowed (Preservation, and perhaps Mercy, probably couldn't).

[Returned he/him]

If I remember correctly (which I may not), Ruin is described as apparently lacking the knowledge and/or strength to Splinter Preservation (described by Khriss? I can't find the reference I feel I recall). On the other hand, I could also swear that I saw a Q&A from Sanderson stating that Ruin was involved with the Splintering (at least of Honor), as was Fortune in some way. I can't find that reference either, though I'll keep looking. In any case, the only successful Splintering (and other, possibly different Shard-deaths) that we know of have been committed by Odium.

[Note]: I just went through all of the Q&As in the Coppermind Arcanum that mention Ruin, Odium, or Splintering and was apparently way off about my memory of a quote regarding Ruin and/or Fortune being involved in Honor's Splintering. There are hints that other Shards may have been involved (see these links, for example), and Odium is currently working with other Shards.

But you are undoubtedly correct, it is a mistake to assume that only Odium can Splinter Shards. Especially since we don't know much about the mechanisms and nature of Splintering in the first place. In my recent trawl of Coppermind it's definitive that "Splintering" is a pretty broad term in the first place, and that even the Splinterings Odium has effected haven't all been the same (see link 1, and link 2). so my statement that only Odium can do it was even further off.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Returned
Did research and updated references where I was able

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

On 22/03/2022 at 0:31 PM, AerionBFII said:

I honestly think her mind is almost completely been corrupted by her Shard. We saw how flawed Ruin, Preservation and Odium became in regards to simply going along with the flow of their Shard. I think her intent was to create a Shard she could influence, shape and train for the War of The God's that is apparently coming. She is sentient enough to see the weakness of Rayse in that the discontent between him and his Shard gave her an opening but I think she grossly underestimated Taravangian, maybe the boon and curse she gave him will help balance out the Odium-ness(?) but I don't think she should take her eyes off her new student.

Great theory, I seem some truth in this. Rayse words is Dalinar would rather surrender to Odium if he knew what Koravellium is planning for Roshar. While I do think it might be an overstatement I'm tempted to believe humans from current Roshar won't be specially happy with whatever future Koravellium is designing for them 

Edited March 29, 2022 by IcaroRibeiro

[cometaryorbit]

On 3/28/2022 at 6:33 PM, Returned said:

If I remember correctly (which I may not), Ruin is described as apparently lacking the knowledge and/or strength to Splinter Preservation (described by Khriss?

Khriss says something like this when talking to Kelsier in Secret History, referring to Leras/Preservation's slow death vs. more catastrophic Shard deaths in the past. When Leras actually finally dies, he says that Ruin will Splinter the power, though.

So I think Ruin couldn't Splinter Preservation while the Shard was held, even by a 'shadow' like Leras had become, but after Leras' final death he could have if Kelsier hadn't picked it up and it had been left truly 'unattended'.

There is a WoB that a Shard left without a Vessel could Splinter on its own (or it could develop its own consciousness, or something else).