Are Kandra immune to poison?

[+ShardlessVessel]

This is for roleplaying game purposes. Do we have information on whether any poisons work on kandra?

[NameIess]

47 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

This is for roleplaying game purposes. Do we have information on whether any poisons work on kandra?

I'm fairly certain that they're immune or highly resistant to most poisons, going off the fact that the injection thing in Shadows of Self that temporarily stuns a kandra straight up kills normal people.

[Quantus he/him]

56 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I'm fairly certain that they're immune or highly resistant to most poisons, going off the fact that the injection thing in Shadows of Self that temporarily stuns a kandra straight up kills normal people.

I would have said the exact opposite, that the presence of a Kandra-specific Poison in SoS proves that they are still vulnerable to Poisons in general, even though they have different biology than normal humans.  When they heal physical damage it's through a conscious application of their Shapeshifting abilities, so I suspect for most poisons they use a similar methods (perhaps growing a triple sized liver or extra kidneys, etc).

Also, I feel like we've seen MeLaan get drunk, but I couldnt say when.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

I would have said the exact opposite, that the presence of a Kandra-specific Poison in SoS proves that they are still vulnerable to Poisons in general, even though they have different biology than normal humans.  When they heal physical damage it's through a conscious application of their Shapeshifting abilities, so I suspect for most poisons they use a similar methods (perhaps growing a triple sized liver or extra kidneys, etc).

Also, I feel like we've seen MeLaan get drunk, but I couldnt say when.

The thing is, Kandra still know of no way to kill each other besides acid. The poison they made can only stop a Kandra, and won't kill them. So poisons would be ineffective, although particularly powerful ones would be able to hurt them.

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

The thing is, Kandra still know of no way to kill each other besides acid. The poison they made can only stop a Kandra, and won't kill them. So poisons would be ineffective, although particularly powerful ones would be able to hurt them.

They know of several ways to kill each other. One that was favored as a means of execution in the Final Empire was Acid, but that's not the only way by any means.  They can fight and be eaten/digested by each other, they can starve, they can be killed by physical damage if they are prevented from shapeshifting for healing, etc.  The only real thing in the way is that their shapeshifting abilities let them consciously repair damage, which is why they used that drug that inhibited their shapeshifting in SoS.  

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

They know of several ways to kill each other. One that was favored as a means of execution in the Final Empire was Acid, but that's not the only way by any means.  They can fight and be eaten/digested by each other, they can starve, they can be killed by physical damage if they are prevented from shapeshifting for healing, etc.  The only real thing in the way is that their shapeshifting abilities let them consciously repair damage, which is why they used that drug that inhibited their shapeshifting in SoS.  

So far as I know, Kandra are immortal unless entirely destroyed. The drug that inhibited their shapeshifting didn't allow them to be killed like a normal human. So poison wouldn't work. If they can take a barrage of bullets and shrug it off, they can shrug off any poison too.

[Trusk'our he/him]

28 minutes ago, Quantus said:

They know of several ways to kill each other. One that was favored as a means of execution in the Final Empire was Acid, but that's not the only way by any means.  They can fight and be eaten/digested by each other, they can starve, they can be killed by physical damage if they are prevented from shapeshifting for healing, etc.  The only real thing in the way is that their shapeshifting abilities let them consciously repair damage, which is why they used that drug that inhibited their shapeshifting in SoS.  

I suspect that you could also roast them to death. You may not even need to reduce them to ash, you might just have to cook all their fleshy parts. 

[Quantus he/him]

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So far as I know, Kandra are immortal unless entirely destroyed. The drug that inhibited their shapeshifting didn't allow them to be killed like a normal human. So poison wouldn't work. If they can take a barrage of bullets and shrug it off, they can shrug off any poison too.

Nope, they are long lived but they do age and die, per WOB. 

The drug that inhibited their shapeshifting would have killed a normal human, but it doesnt follow that one difference of effect makes them immune to all poisons. Chocolate doesnt kill me the way it can a canine, but that doesnt make me immune to All Poisons.  Similarly Horses are immune to the bite of a Black Widow spider, but that's just because they are physically Huge and can reliably resist it by making enough antibodies (that's actually how they manufacture the black widow anti-venom, btw).  Kandra can consciously leverage their Shapeshifting to Resist and/or safely metabolize poisons, but that also isnt the same thing as being Immune.  The Poison we have seen them be effected by is one that specifically attacked their shapeshifting abilities, making them sag, so it makes sense that this Specific poison works because it blocks their Shapeshifting defence, which all makes sense as an exception for the specific case.  I strongly suspect that any poison that attacks the nervous system that way would stop a Kandra, and that any poison strong enough would probably just stop the heart of a regular human.  

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Nope, they are long lived but they do age and die, per WOB. 

 

Huh. Didn't know that.

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The drug that inhibited their shapeshifting would have killed a normal human, but it doesnt follow that one difference of effect makes them immune to all poisons. Chocolate doesnt kill me the way it can a canine, but that doesnt make me immune to All Poisons.  Similarly Horses are immune to the bite of a Black Widow spider, but that's just because they are physically Huge and can reliably resist it by making enough antibodies (that's actually how they manufacture the black widow anti-venom, btw).  Kandra can consciously leverage their Shapeshifting to Resist and/or safely metabolize poisons, but that also isnt the same thing as being Immune.  The Poison we have seen them be effected by is one that specifically attacked their shapeshifting abilities, making them sag, so it makes sense that this Specific poison works because it blocks their Shapeshifting defence, which all makes sense as an exception for the specific case.  I strongly suspect that any poison that attacks the nervous system that way would stop a Kandra, and that any poison strong enough would probably just stop the heart of a regular human.  

For the purposes of a roleplaying game, I would say that Kandra are extremely resistant to poisons. Some poisons might work on them, but they will probably not be killed by anything nonmagical.

[Quantus he/him]

57 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Huh. Didn't know that.

For the purposes of a roleplaying game, I would say that Kandra are extremely resistant to poisons. Some poisons might work on them, but they will probably not be killed by anything nonmagical.

I completely missed that this was for Roleplaying purposes, sorry. 

Depending on how the system handled them, I think Id make their resistance to Poisons be equivalent to their resistance to Physical Damage (probably something short of total immunity), and then disable both if they are hit with a Paralysis effect (including a fast enough Poison that causes it) or rendered unconscious.

[CryoZenith he/him]

The way poison damage works in roleplaying games is necessarily unrealistic, which is why this entire topic is really interesting. Think about it in terms of LD50. If the average human needs 1 milligram of a particular poison to die, on average, and a kandra is 100 times more resistant to poison, you'll need 100 milligrams. Scaling up from 1 milligram of poison to 100 milligrams of poison is really easy. On the other hand, if the average human needs to be shot with 3 bullets to die, on average, and a kandra is 100 times more resistant to physical damage, you'll need 300 bullets. Scaling up from 3 bullets to 300 bullets is really hard. For actual combat situations, it would mean that poison is roughly speaking as good against humans as it is against kandra (when you poison-coat a weapon you're going for hard overkill dose anyway) but physical damage is roughly speaking useless against kandra.

Of course, lots of this can be waved away with the Rule of Fun, but it's still fun to think about.

[Quantus he/him]

On 2/15/2022 at 6:37 PM, CryoZenith said:

The way poison damage works in roleplaying games is necessarily unrealistic, which is why this entire topic is really interesting. Think about it in terms of LD50. If the average human needs 1 milligram of a particular poison to die, on average, and a kandra is 100 times more resistant to poison, you'll need 100 milligrams. Scaling up from 1 milligram of poison to 100 milligrams of poison is really easy. On the other hand, if the average human needs to be shot with 3 bullets to die, on average, and a kandra is 100 times more resistant to physical damage, you'll need 300 bullets. Scaling up from 3 bullets to 300 bullets is really hard. For actual combat situations, it would mean that poison is roughly speaking as good against humans as it is against kandra (when you poison-coat a weapon you're going for hard overkill dose anyway) but physical damage is roughly speaking useless against kandra.

Of course, lots of this can be waved away with the Rule of Fun, but it's still fun to think about.

On retrospect, I think we were modelling this all wrong.   Kandra are Trolls.  They still take the damage (as compared to Plate or atium that actually stops/dodges it) but they have crazy Regen that lets them keep going in spite of it and get up eventually from nearly anything.  So give them Regen that can only be disabled by paralysis or full mental incapacitation (sleep, paralysis, thralling, etc).  If we are talking DnD 5e, I'd also give them Advantage on saves vs Poison.

 

What about other effects, Do they get Immunity to natural Diseases?

[+ShardlessVessel]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

If we are talking DnD 5e

I'm talking Mistborn Adventure Game, actually.

[king of nowhere]

from a biological point of view, kandras can differentiate quickly their cells. Normal creatures have muscle cells, liver cells, brain cells and so on, and they stay that way, while a kandra can will his liver cells to become muscles, and viceversa.

In that perspective it makes sense that they'd be resistant to poisons, because they can compensate for the damage. cyanide is blocking your red blood cells from carrying oxygen, and the kandra can make more of those cells. Or, a nerve agent is paralyzing their nerves, the kandra can turn their brain tissue into something else to protect it from damage while the liver neutralizes the poison; in the meanwhile, they are stunned, and perhaps that was what was in those syringes.

However, there must be some similarities in their kandra cells - some fundamental biological mechanism that works in each and every cell, no matter how it differentiates. and kandras would still be vulnerable to that.

So, to sum it up: I'd have kandras be more resistant to poison in general, but not immune. and i would consider the possibility of poisons working specifically on them - though they may not be known, there aren't many kandras available for experimentation

[CryoZenith he/him]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

In that perspective it makes sense that they'd be resistant to poisons, because they can compensate for the damage. cyanide is blocking your red blood cells from carrying oxygen, and the kandra can make more of those cells. Or, a nerve agent is paralyzing their nerves, the kandra can turn their brain tissue into something else to protect it from damage while the liver neutralizes the poison; in the meanwhile, they are stunned, and perhaps that was what was in those syringes.

Hm, this makes me wonder if poisons that rather than disrupting a specific metabolic process, attack the DNA directly, like arsenic, would be effective against kandra. Probably not, since they must've tried that one already, but I wonder why. Having extra livers doesn't help at all with those after all. Maybe they're just really good at excreting specific substances from their body if they can't process them, I'd guess.

Edited February 22, 2022 by CryoZenith

[HSuperLee he/him]

2 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

Hm, this makes me wonder if poisons that rather than disrupting a specific metabolic process, attack the DNA directly, like arsenic, would be effective against kandra. Probably not, since they must've tried that one already, but I wonder why. Having extra livers doesn't help at all with those after all. Maybe they're just really good at excreting specific substances from their body if they can't process them, I'd guess.

Its implied that kandra can control their DNA, so they'd just undo any damage done to it.

Yes, this bothers me greatly, but it is what it is.

[king of nowhere]

9 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

Hm, this makes me wonder if poisons that rather than disrupting a specific metabolic process, attack the DNA directly, like arsenic, would be effective against kandra. Probably not, since they must've tried that one already, but I wonder why. Having extra livers doesn't help at all with those after all. Maybe they're just really good at excreting specific substances from their body if they can't process them, I'd guess.

I would assume that arsenic would be effective. i don't see many chances of someone trying poisons on kandra.

As for reparing damage to dna, regular humans can do it too, indeed it's estimated that we receive half a million damages per day per every single cell in our body, and it all gets repaired or we'd die soon.

In this case, I'd think kandras would still be resistant to arsenic, because they can do stuff to help excrete or neutralize it. But a bigger dose should work. Actually, if you want to be reasonably sure to kill a human, you need one gram of arsenic. For a kandra I'd venture in the 10 grams or more, which make it an unpractically large dose to poison someone.

Which makes me think, acute radiation poisoning should also work on kandras, at higher doses than would be needed for humans.

[CryoZenith he/him]

27 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Which makes me think, acute radiation poisoning should also work on kandras, at higher doses than would be needed for humans.

Yeah, that one they definitely didn't have the opportunity to test yet.