Weirdness w/ Kaladin [Discuss]

[Wandering Shade]

So, Kaladin is weird.

"Son of Tanavast" rather than "Son of Honor" (possibly a direct descendant of Tanavast?!), the weird spear skills (apparently from Syl but I don't know if I believe that), the weird eyes right after he killed the Pursuer (I think that's from using Adhesion against its natural Intent but why would that mess up his eyes?), and lots of other little things such as his ability to fly nearly on par with Leshwi despite his lack of experience. Hell, he could fly on par with Szeth at the end of WOR which is crazy.

But there's one thing that, upon re-read of TWOK was brought to my attention.

Kaladin used all of his Stormlight when he used a Reverse Lashing of a large enough scale to pull an entire volley of arrows into his shield. After having read Warbreaker, I think Kaladin was left in a state similar to a Drab after he did that. He says that thinking is difficult and the others say his skin has gone ashen.

Did Kal use his Innate Investiture to power a Surge? Is that something normal Radiants can do or is it a Kaladin only thing because of all the other weirdness. Or as suggested by the text, did he just use too much Stormlight all at once?

I'm confused and excited and I want to hear other people's thoughts. What's up with Kal?

[CryoZenith]

6 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

Did Kal use his Innate Investiture to power a Surge? Is that something normal Radiants can do or is it a Kaladin only thing because of all the other weirdness. Or as suggested by the text, did he just use too much Stormlight all at once?

As far as I remember, this has only happened to Kaladin. We've had examples of Knights being exhausted after doing something really big or intensive, like what happened to Shallan, but nobody actually having effects on their body that would imply drain. Normally, Radiants draw in stormlight and surgebind as much as the stormlight they have allows them, they can't supercharge beyond what Investiture they externally gathered.

The idea that Kaladin can pull an Eragon and literally cast from hitpoints is definitely interesting. I wouldn't say overwhelmingly probable, but it has merit.

Edited January 27, 2022 by CryoZenith

[Karger]

Adolin seems to have done something similar during RoW.  Rosharans have a certain amount of extra investiture which is why they are a bit healthier then normal.  Kaladin might just have a particular affinity for this which might explain his seasonal depression to some degree.  Think of it as a high radiant aptitude caused by his physiology and psychology.

[CryoZenith]

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Adolin seems to have done something similar during RoW.  Rosharans have a certain amount of extra investiture which is why they are a bit healthier then normal.  Kaladin might just have a particular affinity for this which might explain his seasonal depression to some degree.  Think of it as a high radiant aptitude caused by his physiology and psychology.

Yeah, Rosharans are naturally more Invested than people from other worlds, which has effects on their health and stuff. That's not unique to Kaladin. What is unique to Kaladin, as OP pointed out, is that he might be able to... burn through that natural Investiture. This is a qualitative difference of powers rather than a quantitative difference of powers, so something like "Kaladin has *more* natural Investiture than most Rosharans." is insufficient to explain it.

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

So, Kaladin is weird.

"Son of Tanavast" rather than "Son of Honor" (possibly a direct descendant of Tanavast?!), the weird spear skills (apparently from Syl but I don't know if I believe that), the weird eyes right after he killed the Pursuer (I think that's from using Adhesion against its natural Intent but why would that mess up his eyes?), and lots of other little things such as his ability to fly nearly on par with Leshwi despite his lack of experience. Hell, he could fly on par with Szeth at the end of WOR which is crazy.

I'm skeptical that "Child of Tanavast" means literal biological descent -- its been so many generations that if there were any biological descendants they'd be a significant fraction of the population, maybe basically everyone.

I think it's likely an Identity or Connection type thing, Kaladin being an incredibly Tanavast-like personality which has some kind of Spiritual Realm effect. (The Stormfather is Tanavast's *Cognitive* Shadow, besides being a spren... but time is not really a thing in the *Spiritual*. Could Kaladin be connecting to some Spiritual aspect of Tanavast-as-he-was?)

I think this might explain Kaladin being super good with limited practice, just as (Mistborn Era 1)

Quote

Vin's use of Allomancy was unusually instinctive - she was in some sense chosen by Preservation or his remnant.

 

[Wandering Shade]

50 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm skeptical that "Child of Tanavast" means literal biological descent -- its been so many generations that if there were any biological descendants they'd be a significant fraction of the population, maybe basically everyone.

I think it's likely an Identity or Connection type thing, Kaladin being an incredibly Tanavast-like personality which has some kind of Spiritual Realm effect. (The Stormfather is Tanavast's *Cognitive* Shadow, besides being a spren... but time is not really a thing in the *Spiritual*. Could Kaladin be connecting to some Spiritual aspect of Tanavast-as-he-was?)

I think this might explain Kaladin being super good with limited practice, just as (Mistborn Era 1)

 

I'm also not super happy with the "literally son of Tanavast" theory for the same reasons you stated. But I hadn't thought that Kal might just have a stronger Connection to Tanavast by having a similar Identity. That is interesting.

And yeah, Kal being really good at flying and using his powers feels really similar to Vin being really good at using her powers. But that might just be authorial bias; ie, Sanderson just likes having protagonists who are really good at using the magic system. But it could also be that Kal is literally in the same boat as Vin, which would be super interesting.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, CryoZenith said:

Yeah, Rosharans are naturally more Invested than people from other worlds, which has effects on their health and stuff. That's not unique to Kaladin. What is unique to Kaladin, as OP pointed out, is that he might be able to... burn through that natural Investiture. This is a qualitative difference of powers rather than a quantitative difference of powers, so something like "Kaladin has *more* natural Investiture than most Rosharans." is insufficient to explain it.

Is it?  Don't Rosharans naturally burn through that extra investiture when under great physical strain?  Kaladin has that + an actual outlet for the power.  Dalinar seems to do something similar with the thrill during his younger PoVs.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

I'm also not super happy with the "literally son of Tanavast" theory for the same reasons you stated. But I hadn't thought that Kal might just have a stronger Connection to Tanavast by having a similar Identity. That is interesting.

I think Syl's special status among the honorspren - as "the Ancient Daughter" - may be a hint at this (ie Kaladin's Tanavast-like qualities attracted her).

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

And yeah, Kal being really good at flying and using his powers feels really similar to Vin being really good at using her powers. But that might just be authorial bias; ie, Sanderson just likes having protagonists who are really good at using the magic system. But it could also be that Kal is literally in the same boat as Vin, which would be super interesting.

Yeah it could just be "same author". But I think there might be a real connection.

It's not just being really good at it the way, say, Adolin is really good at dueling or Vasher is really good at Awakening - its the way they both instinctively do complex stuff with the magic system, including stuff that's otherwise unknown but seems natural to them (Vin's horseshoe flight trick, Kaladin protecting people from the storm).

I don't think any of the other main Stormlight characters, or Raoden in Elantris, or Vivenna in Warbreaker, or Wax and Wayne in Era 2 Mistborn work like this.

Spoiler

Wax is crazy good, but that's lots of practice plus maybe savantism.

 

[DiePie]

I believe the official explanation is that just generally people from Shardworlds (or other places that are highly invested) have that extra investiture, not just Rosharans.

Also the official explanation for Kaladin being so good with the spear is because he was good because he would become good, or something along those lines.

I should also add that that thing he did with the Windspren from the beginning of RoW (where he used them to part the winds) could also be considered abnormal (though there's a good argument to make for him being close enough to his next ideal to weakly manifest plate.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Is it?  Don't Rosharans naturally burn through that extra investiture when under great physical strain?  Kaladin has that + an actual outlet for the power.  Dalinar seems to do something similar with the thrill during his younger PoVs.

I think the idea is that just passively holding that investiture gives them better constitution. Using up that innate investiture under strain would be very inconvenient for Scadrians, most of whom don't have a good way of getting that investiture back.

 

But personally, I think that his "personal quirks" are more so due to something big that will happen in his future. A large influx of investiture could mess with Connection-y stuff and give him a more personal Connection with Tarnavast as side-effects.

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, DiePie said:

I think the idea is that just passively holding that investiture gives them better constitution. Using up that innate investiture under strain would be very inconvenient for Scadrians, most of whom don't have a good way of getting that investiture back.

I'm pretty sure that is what snapping is.

[Wandering Shade]

16 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah it could just be "same author". But I think there might be a real connection.

It's not just being really good at it the way, say, Adolin is really good at dueling or Vasher is really good at Awakening - its the way they both instinctively do complex stuff with the magic system, including stuff that's otherwise unknown but seems natural to them (Vin's horseshoe flight trick, Kaladin protecting people from the storm).

I don't think any of the other main Stormlight characters, or Raoden in Elantris, or Vivenna in Warbreaker, or Wax and Wayne in Era 2 Mistborn work like this.

  Reveal hidden contents

Wax is crazy good, but that's lots of practice plus maybe savantism.

 

According to the Coppermind, other Elantrians do say that the AonDor comes more naturally to Raoden then any of them and its stronger for him too. Coppermind says that's cause he's got a stronger Connection to the Dor or something. Which I guess makes sense for Vin and Kal too. Stronger Connections to Preservation and Honor respectively. Buuuuut that still doesn't explain all of the other weirdness lol.

9 minutes ago, DiePie said:

Also the official explanation for Kaladin being so good with the spear is because he was good because he would become good, or something along those lines.

I know that's the official explanation given by Syl, who also says that its her fault as well. But, and forgive me for saying this, but that's so BS XD. He's only good right now because he would become good in the future? That's definitely not right.

11 minutes ago, DiePie said:

But personally, I think that his "personal quirks" are more so due to something big that will happen in his future. A large influx of investiture could mess with Connection-y stuff and give him a more personal Connection with Tarnavast as side-effects.

But this. I like this.

In book 5, Kaladin might be chosen as the Champion and Dalinar could give him a massive influx of Stormlight which could Connect him to Tanavast somehow, which might ripple backwards in time due to Spiritual Realm shenanigans. Maybe. I dunno, but it sounds pretty cool

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

I know that's the official explanation given by Syl, who also says that its her fault as well. But, and forgive me for saying this, but that's so BS XD. He's only good right now because he would become good in the future? That's definitely not right.

Given by Brandon as well, but it's one of those WoBs I freaking hate so I try not to think about it too much xD

[Wandering Shade]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Given by Brandon as well, but it's one of those WoBs I freaking hate so I try not to think about it too much xD

Huh I had not seen this one. Reading it, BrandoSando does say that Kal is not any more naturally gifted than any sports athlete is at their sport, which I can accept. He does say that its some Connection and Spiritual Realm weirdness, which makes sense to me, especially if like I mentioned in my last post Kal gets super charged near his death (which will definitely be happening in Book 5, I don't see Kaladin not dying in KoW).

Alright, so we seem to have some answers for:
Kaladin's insane spear skills; Minor natural talent combined with Connection nonsense
Kaladin's natural gift at using Surges; Strong Connection to Honor (maybe connected [or even Connected ] with the spear skills)

Which still leaves the Son of Tanavast and using up Innate Investiture nonsense to be explained.
 

[Olmund]

15 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

I know that's the official explanation given by Syl, who also says that its her fault as well. But, and forgive me for saying this, but that's so BS XD. He's only good right now because he would become good in the future? That's definitely not right.

 

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Given by Brandon as well, but it's one of those WoBs I freaking hate so I try not to think about it too much xD

This is not quite as crazy as you think. We know that Cosmere spiritual aspects are "timeless," which does not mean they cannot change, only that things that have happened, could have happened, and can (or will likely) happen all influence how the aspect manifests. This is baked into multiple Cosmere magic systems; allomantic atium/malatium/electrum/gold all borrow from the spiritual realm to show either future possibilities or alternate pasts/presents that could have existed had things gone a little bit differently. Renarin's voidish illumination surge seems to have a similar effect -- and one of the reasons Moash is so tormented when he encounters Renarins projection is because his current path is so incredibly at odds with what could have been if his decisions had gone a little differently; you could say his spiritual aspect is incredibly fractured, which is why he needed Odium to sustain him.

If nearly all of Kaladin's possible futures involved him learning how to use a spear, it's not that strange that there would be a backwash effect especially as he became more connected to his spiritual aspect through Honor (i.e., his honorable actions connected him to the spiritual realm via honor). If enough of Kaladin's possible futures converged on an honorable, radiant path, a highly invested Spren like Syl who has a strong connection to the spiritual realm should sense that well in advance. Shards and their vessels can do this incredibly well due to their strong connections to the spiritual realm -- a big part of Ruin's plans hinged on what Vin would become long before she was born, as just one example (Rayse planned the same for Dalinar, etc.). Even the deadeye spren have enough of a connection to the spiritual realm that they seemed to sense something was going to happen with Mayalaran and Adolin, which is why they converged on Lasting Integrity during Adolin's trial.

The key thing to remember here is that these are all possibilities -- not inevitabilities -- so the most likely outcomes can be confounded by tiny variables (as we see time and again in the Cosmere). In other words, the past and present reality (or the collapse of the wave function, if you prefer) does exist in the Physical/Cognitive realms and has the strongest influence on how a spiritual aspect manifests, but past/present/future possibilities also have influence on the spiritual aspect which (with enough investiture) can influence the physical reality as well.

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, DiePie said:

I should also add that that thing he did with the Windspren from the beginning of RoW (where he used them to part the winds) could also be considered abnormal

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was talking about re: instinctively doing stuff that should be hard/unknown/not possible.

17 hours ago, Karger said:

I'm pretty sure that is what snapping is.

It's described in the annotations as the trauma bringing the innate Preservation out past the resistance of the innate Ruin, like a supersaturated solution crystallizing. I don't think anything is used up - or added, except in the case of (major era 1 Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Mists snapping people - they can add extra Preservation Investiture

I'm unconvinced Kaladin - or anyone except a Nalthian giving away their initial Breath - is actually using up/expending their Innate Investiture.

23 minutes ago, Olmund said:

This is not quite as crazy as you think. We know that Cosmere spiritual aspects are "timeless," which does not mean they cannot change, only that things that have happened, could have happened, and can (or will likely) happen all influence how the aspect manifests.

If nearly all of Kaladin's possible futures involved him learning how to use a spear, it's not that strange that there would be a backwash effect especially as he became more connected to his spiritual aspect through Honor (i.e., his honorable actions connected him to the spiritual realm via honor). If enough of Kaladin's possible futures converged on an honorable, radiant path, a highly invested Spren like Syl who has a strong connection to the spiritual realm should sense that well in advance.

Yeah. Given the Spiritual Realm connection, I think "feedback from his likely future" works well with the "Connection to Tanavast-as-he-was" idea.

Syl says she knew Kaladin before they met, or was 'always going to have known him', or something to that effect. I think this is the same thing happening.

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm unconvinced Kaladin - or anyone except a Nalthian giving away their initial Breath - is actually using up/expending their Innate Investiture.

Feruchemists

[cometaryorbit]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Feruchemists

Ok, I guess nicrosil Feruchemy.

But regular Feruchemy I think converts "attribute X" to Investiture and stores it in a metalmind when you store, then turns it back to "attribute X" when you tap - rather than storing Investiture you already have.

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

But regular Feruchemy I think converts "attribute X" to Investiture and stores it in a metalmind when you store, then turns it back to "attribute X" when you tap - rather than storing Investiture you already have.

I think you need to alter your perspective.  Investiture is what determines if something exists.  If the total sum of my innate investiture is 100 then some portion is devoted to any given attribute.  If 5 unites of investiture are used to give me strength x then as a feruchemist I can instead reroute 2 unites to my metalminds and get by with a strength of 3 for a time.  When using your body you are also making use of your investiture.  Even the univested could use half a unite to lift something heavy.  It then returns like a breath when no longer used.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Karger

[cometaryorbit]

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think you need to alter your perspective.  Investiture is what determines if something exists.  If the total sum of my innate investiture is 100 then some portion is devoted to any given attribute.  If 5 unites of investiture are used to give me strength x then as a feruchemist I can instead reroute 2 unites to my metalminds and get by with a strength of 3 for a time.  When using your body you are also making use of your investiture.  Even the univested could use half a unite to lift something heavy.  It then returns like a breath when no longer used.

I disagree... or at least I'm not sure we are talking about the same things.

Matter, energy, and infrastructure are inter-convertible in the cosmere, like matter and energy in RL physics. So in a certain sense you could say a human body (or a rock) is "made out of Investiture" - but I don't think that ordinary life functions really qualify as "using Investiture". It's all still 'stuck as' matter and energy, nothing Investiture-y (nothing outside real world physics) is happening.

Anyway. I think Innate Investiture is not just "anything can be converted into Investiture" but refers to the 'spark of life' Investiture that people/sapient beings have... and I think messing with that is fairly specific to  Awakening (voluntarily) and Hemalurgy (involuntarily).

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Matter, energy, and infrastructure are inter-convertible in the cosmere, like matter and energy in RL physics. So in a certain sense you could say a human body (or a rock) is "made out of Investiture" - but I don't think that ordinary life functions really qualify as "using Investiture". It's all still 'stuck as' matter and energy, nothing Investiture-y (nothing outside real world physics) is happening.

I refer to innate investiture as potential investiture(even though Brandon uses different and more confusing terminology).  Mass and energy cannot exist without a spiritual counterpart created from investiture.  If something has no investiture it cannot be said to exist.  In our world all their spiritual component does is permit something to exist but on a shardworld they have a little extra so they "exist" a little more.  What Kaladin is doing when he outputs his own investiture is burning through his "existence" more rapidly.  He thus takes more time to recover.

[cometaryorbit]

I agree spiritual aspects of everything are made out of Investiture (plus Connection and probably Identity), but I think Innate Investiture is something more specific. And I don't think Innate Investiture gets altered without a magic system specifically set up to do that. But I don't think I have enough text or WoB evidence, so eh.

[Anomander Rake]

Perhaps, if Kal is marked by honor in the same way Vin was by Preservation, that's why Syl found him out and bonded him - whatever connections exist or existed between Tanavast, the Stormfather, and Syl have now trapped Kal in their web.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

Perhaps, if Kal is marked by honor in the same way Vin was by Preservation, that's why Syl found him out and bonded him - whatever connections exist or existed between Tanavast, the Stormfather, and Syl have now trapped Kal in their web.

I think it's not unlikely that Cultivation led Syl to Kal, actually:

Quote

“Besides, there was … another voice. Pure, with a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding…” She smiled, and zipped away.

Which sounds similar to the voice that Venli heard.