Why does everyone hate Oathbringer?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

While I kind of agree on Amaram, I don't on Rayse--but it's useful for me to read this sort of thing.

The goal with Amaram was to finally let him be the monster on the outside he was on the inside--and so the sequence felt thematically right to me in outlining and writing. Since the publication, though, I've walked back this opinion somewhat. While the sequence works as intended, it's not quite right, and if I were doing the book over I'd try something different.

Footnote: The post Brandon is responding to is much longer than the excerpt here.
General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 25, 2021)

The goal was not met. Such a person would have just killed Kaladin. Nor written the letter to Restares.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

The goal was not met. Such a person would have just killed Kaladin. Nor written the letter to Restares.

Sold into slavery to never become a problem again in exchange for saving your life?

Seems like a heartless monster to me.

And he worked for Restares.

[Pathfinder]

13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The goal was not met. Such a person would have just killed Kaladin. Nor written the letter to Restares.

So I prescribe to the theory that Amaram had narcissistic personality disorder. The theory goes into all his various interactions he has had in that light, and makes sense to me. So someone with such a disorder would have gone through those self reflections, and actions to maintain the delusion, and then when the reality disputes the delusion, follow it up with the mental leaps to maintain said delusion. But I don't think the intention was to debate Amaram. If you are curious about the arguments for and against Amaram having narcissistic personality disorder, I can pull up the thread that went into it at length, and link it if you like. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Pathfinder

[agrabes]

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So the answer to that does actually come up in the WoB I was referring to, so I will post them below and offer a little commentary for why I still posted them in line with your question. But TLDR, Amaram was always meant to be that way since Way of Kings. We just didn't get to see it on screen as much, and since the reaction to Oathbringer, he has walked back his responses a bit for Amaram to still be bad inside, with the outside still being a façade, but it to be a slightly more downward progression over time. 

 

So first, WoB on Brandon's original intent for Amaram being a representation of being all show regarding honorable, rather than actually being:

 

Coachdorax

Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say, to the worst of the Alethi, gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society, and I needed somebody to represent this. Part of it is, to represent a contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite to Dalinar. In a way, he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks, he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him in later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go. But yeah, he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being.

YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)

 

This WoB discusses how Brandon felt there was a gradual descent that really started at the moment with Kaladin, but it wasn't shown due to page constraints. That what he did with Kaladin was the worse thing Amaram ever did, so that Amaram was going down the bad road since at least Way of Kings. Just we didn't get to see it

 

Steeldancer

In Oathbringer, my one big issue with Oathbringer was Amaram's turn. I'm curious why you chose to not hint more at his turn. It felt a little bit out of nowhere. What were your thoughts on Amaram?

Brandon Sanderson

Which turn are you talking about?

Steeldancer

When he turns to Odium's side and he's like, "Okay, now I'm going to consume an Unmade."

Brandon Sanderson

I feel like Amaram was a slow and steady descent. But you didn't get to see viewpoints from him as he was doing it. And what he did to Kaladin was worse than anything he did in Oathbringer, in my mind.

Steeldancer

Why did you choose not to give him viewpoints.

Brandon Sanderson

Too many characters. To many people to give viewpoints to. It was kicked around. I kicked it around for a while. There just wasn't enough.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Finally, another WoB that show Amaram was initially supposed to be portrayed even worse, but that since publishing Oathbringer, he has started walking back on that. So initially Amaram was intended to be pure monster inside that can finally show his true colors. Since Oathbringer, Brandon has tweaked that a little bit.

 

Oversleep

Two characters who I believe Brandon absolutely butchered in terms of what their setup was and what happened to them.

[...]

Amaram. Suddenly, completely out of left field, Amaram has been talking to Odium, betrayed all he worked and believed in, sides with Odium... And becomes inhuman monster nobody will lose any sleep over getting rid of. Seriously, what the hell? 

Rayse. Similar complaint of setting someone up for one thing then just conveniently cutting out: Rayse. He's been set up, multiple times, in multiple books, by multiple characters, as the Big Bad (or at least close to it).

[...]

And after all that build up of Rayse and what he turned out to be... How am I supposed to believe Taravangian, the newest of the Vessels, is going to be any threat at all?

Brandon Sanderson

While I kind of agree on Amaram, I don't on Rayse--but it's useful for me to read this sort of thing.

The goal with Amaram was to finally let him be the monster on the outside he was on the inside--and so the sequence felt thematically right to me in outlining and writing. Since the publication, though, I've walked back this opinion somewhat. While the sequence works as intended, it's not quite right, and if I were doing the book over I'd try something different.

Footnote: The post Brandon is responding to is much longer than the excerpt here.
General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 25, 2021)

 

 

Thanks - Excellent post!   I do remember reading that first WoB at some point.  And really, I think as far as that one goes, he actually nailed that feeling.  Amaram (to me) does come across as a politician playing realpolitik in tWoK and WoR - someone who carefully weighs doing things that are morally good for everyone on a scale vs. things that gain personal power or power for his country but might be immoral to the "out" group and will do whichever one he thinks gains more value for his citizens.  That can be extremely upsetting to people like Kaladin who want to see their politicians value moral character above all.  It bothered me less, because I saw it in that context - Amaram had a job to do.  And the unfortunate reality is that in real life especially in war time you have to play realpolitik.  Amaram didn't have to do what he did, he could have chosen better.  And clearly, he knew that he chose the immoral option.  But, he knew it would weaken him forever as a politician and that would have negative impacts on his career and by extension the people he ruled.  Being ruthless and amoral in the context of his job is something that makes him a bad person, but not an evil monster in my book.  Up until OB, we never saw him do anything immoral outside the context of either advancing his career or his religious mission.  

That's just how I saw Amaram though, others definitely saw him differently.  I think it's clear Sanderson had a different vision of Amaram in his head at least during the time he was writing OB.

Anyway, appreciate you taking the time to reference those.

[Elegy he/him]

So ... this is what I think: When it came out, Oathbringer alienated some fans because it moved away from what Stormlight was before it. Way of Kings and Words of Radiance were basically two halves of one huge book, one arc, and after the latter, people saw the tone, style and setting of that arc - the Shattered Plains, the bridges, the War of Reckoning - as Stormlight's identity ... when it really was the identity of that specific arc. Oathbringer opened up the world and story and lead it to new directions - the whole world scale politics, the oathgates, the Desolation. I think a lot of people didn't like it initially. I do feel like most have come around to it.

Nowadays, Rhythm of War seems the most disliked by far - and contrary to Oathbringer, I don't think much will change about it. There's just too many problems that too many people have with it, and too many things that feel like they weren't as thoroughly thought-out as they used to. That's what the consensus feels like to me.

I personally love Oathbringer, although Words of Radiance is my favorite (book ever).

Edited January 13, 2022 by Elegy

[+Oltux72 he/him]

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I prescribe to the theory that Amaram had narcissistic personality disorder.

The theory is good. In fact, too good. If he is good enough at pretending, how do you tell the difference?

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, agrabes said:

Thanks - Excellent post!   I do remember reading that first WoB at some point.  And really, I think as far as that one goes, he actually nailed that feeling.  Amaram (to me) does come across as a politician playing realpolitik in tWoK and WoR - someone who carefully weighs doing things that are morally good for everyone on a scale vs. things that gain personal power or power for his country but might be immoral to the "out" group and will do whichever one he thinks gains more value for his citizens.  That can be extremely upsetting to people like Kaladin who want to see their politicians value moral character above all.  It bothered me less, because I saw it in that context - Amaram had a job to do.  And the unfortunate reality is that in real life especially in war time you have to play realpolitik.  Amaram didn't have to do what he did, he could have chosen better.  And clearly, he knew that he chose the immoral option.  But, he knew it would weaken him forever as a politician and that would have negative impacts on his career and by extension the people he ruled.  Being ruthless and amoral in the context of his job is something that makes him a bad person, but not an evil monster in my book.  Up until OB, we never saw him do anything immoral outside the context of either advancing his career or his religious mission.  

That's just how I saw Amaram though, others definitely saw him differently.  I think it's clear Sanderson had a different vision of Amaram in his head at least during the time he was writing OB.

Anyway, appreciate you taking the time to reference those.

Yeah, it looks like to me that he intended Amaram to be an inner monster for Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer, but when he received some of the fan disconnect, he walked it back to be a bit of a descent. That way it would come off as still a progression, but maintain the purpose of being a false face.

 

edit: Having re-read your post, the part about advancing his career and religious mission, I do personally disagree with you on that, and have a WoB (that I have to find. Arcanum has been difficult finding WoB on of late.) to back that up. But I am not stating that to try and change how you feel about the character. More for completeness in presentation. 

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The theory is good. In fact, too good. If he is good enough at pretending, how do you tell the difference?

By the scenes where his delusion is challenged. 

 

1. Challenged by Kaladin after killing Kaladin's men

2. Challenged by Dalinar to save Adolin in the ring during the 4 shardbearer fight

3. Challenged by Kaladin in the ring after the 4 shardbearer fight

4. Challenged by Dalinar regarding the theft of the shardblade

5. Challenged by meeting the Herald Taln with his madness

6. Challenged by the events unfolding at the end of Words of Radiance

7. Challenged by Dalinar repeatedly when claiming to be trying to reunite Kholin and Sadeas princedoms

8. Challenged by Jasnah in front of the scholars

9. Challenged by Dalinar regarding the positioning of Amaram's forces

10. Challenged by Kaladin during their final fight after consuming Yelig-nar

 

Hmm, came out to ten. Totally did not intend that, but that's cool lol. Basically those are prime examples of moments where his delusion is challenged, he has a crisis moment, and then he acts (by trying to remove the disruption) or rationalizes (by finding an excuse) to reassert the delusion. 

But I acknowledge fans of the character will view those moments in a different light. I was just responding to your query on how I tell the difference. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Pathfinder

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 1/8/2022 at 4:06 PM, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

so everyone has been seeming to hate Oathbringer. In my opinion it was really great, Dalinar's arc was amazing, the battle at the end was awesome. the story did not drag that much . and well it was great, it had great momentum. why doesn't anyone agree? now it aint my favorite book but it is still great.

Actually, Oathbringer is my favorite book in the SA. But yeah, I don't get either why so many others don't find it their favorite (though I suppose there is some pretty stiff competition).

[Rashekin he/him]

I think the book would be just as perfect as the other 3 if only Part Three didn't exist. It's the most boring part of a Brandon book, it made Oathbringer too heavy even though the other parts served their purpose, and the book has an extremely exciting ending.

[CryoZenith he/him]

Oathbringer is my favorite Stormlight book so far, BUT I am aware that my tastes are atypical in some ways, and if I'm trying to be impartial and, as much as possible, judge the books on literary quality alone, I have Oathbringer third rather than first. So despite my personal impressions, I wasn't at all surprised when I discovered that many people didn't like Oathbringer, and I get where they're coming from.