Gavilar's prologue won't answer many questions

[KaladinWorldsinger]

So everyone is expecting some sort of juicy plot reveal from gavilar's prologue. I mean it has to right? We have been building towards this for 4 books, slowly getting more and more info about this guy and we will finally know what he was thinking from his own point of view.

But that would undermine the structure of a Brandon Sanderson book. His books almost always have big plot twists and mystery, even for how the magic system works. A wave of knowledge hits us at the end, appropriately called 'Sanderlanche'. 

Gavilar is too connected to crucial things. Even a small lore reveal might end up being a lot. For ex, he is connected to thaidakar and ghostblood, he knows about anti light, he probably knows ba ado mishram, he knew the heralds somehow, taravangian met him that day??, Whether or not he actually died, how to go to braize, axindweth and what her deal is. So many things that could be revealed in the prologue of the book. All those things are probably crucial to the ending. So I think Brandon will choose to be vague about most of this stuff.

Also Brandon releases preview chapters before hand, so we really can't give too much away, as the fandom will have months to decode the chapters.

So what will we see then?

I think we will get very interesting revelations that might not effect the plot of the fifth book, instead it will recontextualize the major plot beats from the previous books. These reveals will serve to show more of Gavilar's character

1) Jasnah:  We will see that Gavilar knew very well that Jasnah was trying to kill Aesudan that night. How does he know? Through Liss. We know that Liss has a agreement with Jasnah about if someone else tried to hire Liss against The kholin family. I think Gavilar already had the same agreement with liss and hence Liss tells him. Liss does this because 'a repeat customer' is more valuable to her.(a quote from the book).  Gavilar is the type of guy who would be a repeat customer.

How would he know Liss? Through Nale. We know Nale is abnormally interested in szeth. And szeth was Lisa's servant for some reason. Or it could be that nale found out about szeth through Liss, both ways work.

We will also find out Gavilar was slowly grooming Jasnah to join Sons of Honor. This is why he suddenly he suddenly shows a scholarly side to him to Jasnah the months before his death. This works on Jasnah only because her childhood madness was a clear shame to Gavilar and she probably deep down wants his love more than anyone else. His respect for her mind, something she has built her identity around( being rational at all times) would only reinforce this. He may have also caused her mission to 'protect the family' discreetly. Maybe through the ghostbloods? We know Jasnah and ghostbloods are fighting for some unspecified reason

2) Amaram: He is trying to marry off Jasnah and Amaram to strengthen both of their connections to his organisation. But Amaram is a pawn. I am sure Gavilar knows who Nale is atleast( even if not Resteres/Kalak). Amaram doesn't. Because Gavilar isn't very religious, he doesn't care about the heralds coming back. He only cares about causing the desolation to make himself a god or a legend. So he lies to Amaram

3)Aesudan: She will be revealed to be a envisager( a splinter group of sons of honor) who defected to Gavilar because of ambition. She knew about his unmade.( I also won't be surprised if Gavilar told Liss to go ahead with the assassination anyway, as she was ambitious)

I always found it wierd that Aesudan and Hesina were related (WoB). Aesudan is part darkeye, Hesina is part lighteye. They sing the same song once. Hesina doesn't seem to mind kal being a radiant even though she knows about spren a lot so u would think she is religious. She also suggests kal to become a stormwarden and even kal gets scared, because its very similar to telling the future. Envisage means 'to tell the future'. Teft even theorizes about envisagers in RoW, but it's left unanswered. Maybe these connections are important

4) Axindweth: In Row flashback, Axindweth writes in a letter that Gavilar's own feruchemist spotted her. I don't believe this at all because Axindweth was a part of Gavilar's party to parshendi expeditionto begin with. She is the only character to have explicit rings on her hand, it would be wierd to reveal another feruchemist in that party. Let's remember, Gavilar wants the desolation to happen. He has no real need to stop Axindweth from helping Ulim and Venli. Unless, she is working with Gavilar and stopped at his orders because of Nale. Nale did seem to somehow know that Ulim was in the palace that night. This is why Gav tells her to immediately stop bringing more voispren. He is secretly helping the fused come back.

How does Gavilar know about Axindweth? Through Ghostbloods of course. He probably was a member himself, betrayed them and also stole Axindweth

5) Parshendi: He wants to fight with the Parshendi because of their unique dawnsinging magic that Venli saw.

6) Navani: They might confirm that he has Breaths( as he sensed her). He might also be shown to be intensely jealous of Dalinar for having Navani's affection, since navani does think that he still cares for her.

7) Taravangian: This prediction is interesting to me. Taravangian has found out about the coming desolation from dova in kharbhranth. This is pre-diagram 'the maybe dull' taravangian. He is understandably scared and decides to try to form a coalition with Alethkar, the warlord Gavilar. But something snaps inside Gavilar and he goes full megalomaniac. He laughs at taravangian's face, calling him stupid, and attacking his low self esteem. He dresses down taravangian and would insinuate that Tara's purpose is to be Gav's humble follower because of his lack of capacity. He will talk about the visions( huge news to people who dont read the wobs) and how he was chosen by the almighty. Tara would be humiliated to tears. Later, after Gav's death, Tara will set out for the nightwatcher for capacity and create the diagram. I won't be surprised if we find out that Tara sees gav in Dalinar and doesn't want to lose because of that.

8) A big hint that gav found a way to live

These are the reveals that I actually expect for the prologue. Most of these are charcter moments that just change the view of the other characters. And also we will see the birth of the diagram maybe

So it will be satisfying

[Anomander Rake he/him]

On 12/29/2021 at 0:43 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But that would undermine the structure of a Brandon Sanderson book. His books almost always have big plot twists and mystery, even for how the magic system works. A wave of knowledge hits us at the end, appropriately called 'Sanderlanche'. 

Gavilar is too connected to crucial things. Even a small lore reveal might end up being a lot. For ex, he is connected to thaidakar and ghostblood, he knows about anti light, he probably knows ba ado mishram, he knew the heralds somehow, taravangian met him that day??, Whether or not he actually died, how to go to braize, axindweth and what her deal is. So many things that could be revealed in the prologue of the book. All those things are probably crucial to the ending. So I think Brandon will choose to be vague about most of this stuff.

I like all of your theorizing, particularly about Axindweth with that last post about her and the Set and all, but I kind of disagree with this reasoning here.  I fully expect to be given (at least some!) juicy plot points, because we have certainly had the requisite buildup for this moment and its very own sanderlanche - we've waited since the first chapters of WoK to finally learn what happened on that night, and have for a while now known Gavilar would be the final feast prologue, where we'd finally see firsthand what went down.  For Brandon to purposefully skirt around the reveal of certain things that happen that night would feel like a total rug pull, and not in the plot-twisty authorial way.  Besides, whatever reveals we do get in the prologue, im sure its gonna be a drop in the bucket for what the rest of book 5 has in store.

I also kind of expect certain things to be answered as a way to bring closure to the front 5, though the back 5 being more about the heralds might lead brando to leave us a with a few dangling threads regarding Gavilar and his doings.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Anomander Rake
sanderlanche* not sanderlance lol, tho the latter does sound cool

[AquaRegia he/him]

5 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

I fully expect to be given (at least some!) juicy plot points, because we have certainly had the requisite buildup for this moment

Agree.  I think the Prologue will be an eye-popper, the opening salvo in what promises to be an action-packed series finale.

@KaladinWorldsinger, I found it amusing how your premise "there won't be much revealed in the Prologue" was followed by TEN STORMING PARAGRAPHS of exciting things you think might be in the Prologue.  You make it sound like "character moments" aren't juicy reveals... but for me, it's the characters that enable the story to be interesting, and reveals about character relationships in this case will be SUPER juicy.  I think there is plenty of plot and magic cued up for a Sanderlanche later even after LOTS of dots get connected in the Prologue.  In short, there's more than enough dots to go around!

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I found it amusing how your premise "there won't be much revealed in the Prologue" was followed by TEN STORMING PARAGRAPHS of exciting things you think might be in the Prologue.  You make it sound like "character moments" aren't juicy reveals... but for me, it's the characters that enable the story to be interesting, and reveals about character relationships in this case will be SUPER juicy.  I think there is plenty of plot and magic cued up for a Sanderlanche later even after LOTS of dots get connected in the Prologue.  In short, there's more than enough dots to go around!

Lol, I just kept writing all the minor details that I could think of and slowly it became really huuge. When I was writing the thread, I wasn't thinking about Jasnah or Amaram or liss. This post helped me remember a lot of things about Gav. 

But none of my predictions reveal things that are super relevant to the story now(except Axindweth). Instead it just makes character motivations in the past make more sense. So that's why I say they won't be juicy. But  seeing the start of the diagram will still be hype enough.

11 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

I like all of your theorizing, particularly about Axindweth with that last post about her and the Set and all, but I kind of disagree with this reasoning here.  I fully expect to be given (at least some!) juicy plot points, because we have certainly had the requisite buildup for this moment and its very own sanderlance - we've waited since the first chapter of WoK to finally learn what happened on that night, and have for a while now known Gavilar would be the final feast prologue, where we'd finally see firsthand what went down.  For Brandon to purposefully skirt around the reveal of certain things that happen that night would feel like a total rug pull, and not in the plot-twisty authorial way.  Besides, whatever reveals we do get in the prologue, im sure its gonna be a drop in the bucket for what the rest of book 5 has in store.

I also kind of expect certain things to be answered as a way to bring closure to the front 5, though the back 5 being more about the heralds might lead brando to leave us a with a few dangling threads regarding Gavilar and his doings.

5 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Agree.  I think the Prologue will be an eye-popper, the opening salvo in what promises to be an action-packed series finale.

My main caveat here is the release of preview chapters waay before the actual book. That gives a lot of time for people to dissect each and every word. I don't know if the knowledge gav has is a drop in the bucket, cause he is connected to almost everything ( maybe even ba ado misshram)

[Anomander Rake he/him]

On 12/30/2021 at 1:01 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

My main caveat here is the release of preview chapters waay before the actual book. That gives a lot of time for people to dissect each and every word. I don't know if the knowledge gav has is a drop in the bucket, cause he is connected to almost everything ( maybe even ba ado misshram)

I hear that and I get the thought process, but I don't buy it because to do so would jeopardize the chapter's authenticity.  When Brandon writes the prologue, for him to avoid revealing too many things like you are saying, Gav's thoughts will end up feeling super contrived and fake, because he'll be acting like important thoughts have just been excised from him.  We know important things are on his mind tonight, with the treaty signing and his whole study room tea party, and for them all to be written around like obstacles without leaving the chapter feeling messy would be a herculean feat.  I hope I didn't do a poor job of explaining what im thinking by this haha.

Just as well, it seems almost silly to me that Brandon would alter the book and story he wants to write for the sole purpose of releasing some fraction of it early.  We will learn things when he wants us to learn them, not when it is convenient for marketing.  If anything, I'd expect him to drop some extra pearls in the early chapters for loyal fans. 

when we finally get behind Gavs eyes we're in for a wild ride.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Anomander Rake

[cometaryorbit]

Also, Rhythm of War dug much more into cosmere aware stuff (4 new Shard names!) and magic mechanics (all the Navani and Raboniel science part) than previously. I think the books going forward may be freer with this sort of info, as we're moving into an era of the Cosmere where these things will be more relevant. Stormlight 5 will be the end of the cosmere "first arc", IIRC.

[worldwithinworld]

On 1/4/2022 at 10:39 AM, Anomander Rake said:

Just as well, it seems almost silly to me that Brandon would alter the book and story he wants to write for the sole purpose of releasing some fraction of it early.  We will learn things when he wants us to learn them, not when it is convenient for marketing.

I very much agree with this. If Brandon or his publisher thinks the revelations in the prologue are too big to give away in the preview chapters, the most likely thing is that they simply won't release the prologue early and instead just start with Chapter 1. They already did that kind of thing in the WoR preview chapters by leaving out Jasnah's "death" and replacing that with a note saying that a portion of the chapter was cut from the sample. 

In fact, I'm kind of expecting we'll have to wait for the actual book to get to read the prologue, and I think it will be well worth the wait.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

5 hours ago, worldwithinworld said:

In fact, I'm kind of expecting we'll have to wait for the actual book to get to read the prologue, and I think it will be well worth the wait.

With Stormlight I'm loyal to Michael and Kate, so I might end up waiting regardless.  Though in truth I doubt I'll hold out if the prologue drops early, but if he skips it for Chapter 1 and so on I can for sure.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Anomander Rake

[Kandrafish]

I am going to be a little nit picky.

1- Nale wouldn't associate with Liss. Liss is willing to break the law in order to kill in Kolinar. This is punishable by death. (I do really love the idea that Gavilar is also hiring Liss, though.)

2- I like it. There has to be ulterior motive, though. What does the relationship between Ameram and Gavilar give Gavilar? Could he want to bring Jasnah into the fold, but he needs people to stop seeing her as a problem, heretic and old unmarried woman before he can do so? Maybe, but it is a little boring.

3- I am surprised. I didn't know about this. I love the theorizing, but don't think it will fit into the prologue

4- This is possible, but I think that Axindweth is more likely to be a question left unanswered.

5 and 6- Yeah, I can see that.

7-Maybe... Maybe a little more passive-aggressive. He simply tells Taravangian that he will gladly make him a Highprince of Alethkar, but Taravangian doesn't want to be conquered... Honestly, though... I feel like it will probably be Gavilar seeking Taravangian's scholarly advice. I cannot imagine why he would care about Taravangian when he thinks he is actually going to enter the realm of "gods and legends".

8- If he lives, I think it needs to happen in the prologue. If he dies, it needs to reveal what is wrong with the Rosharan Shadesmar/ Afterlife.

 

Overall, I really like the ideas and theories and I think that a lot of them could be correct (first part of 1 and 2 and definitely 5 and 6).

 

 

I, however, will take the conservative view that Brandon is going to go and make this prologue crazy fast paced and give tons of crazy details that set our heads spinning. Unfortunately, he gave us so many crazy details that when we reach the Sanderlanche ending we realize that we misinterpreted some of what happens and BAM! There were tons of new secrets exposed during the prologue while we got most of the answers we wanted. We missed foreshadowing for ____! And ______!

That is just my opinion. I think he is going to want to make this a crazy ending to the arc and I think there are enough secrets in Roshar that he can expose several in the prologue.

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

11 hours ago, worldwithinworld said:

I very much agree with this. If Brandon or his publisher thinks the revelations in the prologue are too big to give away in the preview chapters, the most likely thing is that they simply won't release the prologue early and instead just start with Chapter 1. They already did that kind of thing in the WoR preview chapters by leaving out Jasnah's "death" and replacing that with a note saying that a portion of the chapter was cut from the sample. 

In fact, I'm kind of expecting we'll have to wait for the actual book to get to read the prologue, and I think it will be well worth the wait.

Ooooh! I had no idea about Jasnah's death being blocked out... That is super interesting. Ya I think you are right, Brandon might just start with chapter one. That will be great.

3 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

Nale wouldn't associate with Liss. Liss is willing to break the law in order to kill in Kolinar. This is punishable by death.

If the king is hiring an assassin, is it legal to kill that assassin? 

3 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

2- I like it. There has to be ulterior motive, though. What does the relationship between Ameram and Gavilar give Gavilar? Could he want to bring Jasnah into the fold, but he needs people to stop seeing her as a problem, heretic and old unmarried woman before he can do so? Maybe, but it is a little boring.

Good point, I wonder why Gavilar even needs Amaram. The only thing I can think of is that Amaram is someone Gavilar can absolutely trust is not a threat, because Amaram is genuinely religious and believes in the cause. Also Amaram is an easily manipulatable idiot. Maybe that's why Gav never suspects whether szeth was sent by Amaram when he starts calling out names.

3 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

3- I am surprised. I didn't know about this. I love the theorizing, but don't think it will fit into the prologue

The thing about aesudan being an envisager is a one para reveal. The thing about hesina prolly won't be touched on at all( but it is very wierd)

3 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

4- This is possible, but I think that Axindweth is more likely to be a question left unanswered

We can blame venli all we want, but Axindweth the offworlder was the most important piece in Kickstarting the most important event on Roshar. That does not sit well with me. Brandon has to explain her i feel.

3 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

I feel like it will probably be Gavilar seeking Taravangian's scholarly advice.

Taravangian has no reputation for being scholarly at all tho...

3 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

however, will take the conservative view that Brandon is going to go and make this prologue crazy fast paced and give tons of crazy details that set our heads spinning. Unfortunately, he gave us so many crazy details that when we reach the Sanderlanche ending we realize that we misinterpreted some of what happens and BAM! There were tons of new secrets exposed during the prologue while we got most of the answers we wanted. We missed foreshadowing for ____! And ______!

No matter how fast paced the actual prologue is, we will have almost a month to disect it thoroughly and figure out most of the story

3 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

That is just my opinion. I think he is going to want to make this a crazy ending to the arc and I think there are enough secrets in Roshar that he can expose several in the prologue.

 

But SA is a ten book series and he has to save a back half worth of secrets for the back half, so how many can he actually reveal in the prologue eh?

[Milk]

Quote

She is the only character to have explicit rings on her hand, it would be wierd to reveal another feruchemist in that party.

Although I have made a mistake regarding Axindweth before, I'm fairly certain that we do know of a feruchemist in the party. The RoW prologue makes note of the palace steward named Gereh, who was a feruchemist according to the Coppermind. (He was killed by Mraize; Lift takes his Aviar) His (lack of) rings are also noted by Wyndle.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 hours ago, Milk said:

Although I have made a mistake regarding Axindweth before, I'm fairly certain that we do know of a feruchemist in the party. The RoW prologue makes note of the palace steward named Gereh, who was a feruchemist according to the Coppermind. (He was killed by Mraize; Lift takes his Aviar) His (lack of) rings are also noted by Wyndle.

.....Crap you are right. Well there goes that cool theory( i would never have caught that)