Problems with Jasnah

[Sp00ks]

I know this is probably gonna be controversial, and a lotta people probably are gonna disagree with me, and that's fine. 

Does anyone else kinda not like how Jasnah is handled? I don't really hate her or anything it's just, the way Brandon writes her just feels sorta off and not very compelling. To me anyway.

Specifically, it feels like she's sorta too perfect, especially in a series where being a flawed person striving to do better is such a big thing. Never at any point does Jasnah ever really fail at anything, and the few times she sorta does, nothing really becomes of it.

She, despite being a woman of extreme privilege uproots the ancient Alethi slave tradition, and completely ends Dark Eyes oppression (which none of the characters this ACTUALLY involves even really comment on or are a part of), because she's just so cool and epic and badass because she just is. There's no real backlash to this, she steals this moment away from characters that actually care about this. She's just this perfect queen.

And like, every time someone in world legitimately opposes her, they are made out to be an absolute buffoon. Look at the Alethi lord in RoW. That entire sequence was frankly just rediculous. Navani and Kaladin and Shallan are facing extremely dangerous situations, and making mistakes that have lasting consiquences because they are human beings, while Jasnah is fighting a storming caricature of the patriarchy. Seriously?  A lot of the time she doesn't feel like an actual human being, to the point where the few scenes Brandon tries to make her seem vulnerable just feel fake, at least to me.

Am I missing something? Am I supposed to see her in a different light? All the other characters have their ideals and attitudes radically challenged and are forced to adapt and overcome things. Jasnah, despite having a pretty rediculous and arguably un-radiant moral code just succeeds at everything. I'd love to be convinced otherwise, it's just, it's been really bothering me on my second reread of the series 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Sp00ks
Added tags

[Frustration]

I'd recommend WoK Prime, it does Jasnah a lot better.

Maybe we'll get something good from her in the back five but right now she is rather lackluster.

[NameIess]

I think Jasnah's perfect feel stems from two main sources. First, that we don't get many Jasnah viewpoints, and second, that we see Jasnah (I'm assuming this here) her biggest conflict in life is already past. Almost every time we see Jasnah, we see her from other's viewpoints. And because of her reputation and force of will, everyone sees Jasnah as perfect. And this perfection doesn't feel earned, because we haven't seen Jasnah earn it. If Jasnah had been with Shallan through WoR, we might have seen more of her conflict, as her time with Shallan on the ship to the shattered plains is one of the only times we see Jasnah's mask crack. If Jasnah hadn't been separated from Shallan, we might have seen her struggle, but as it is we skipped over Jasnah's entire shadesmar arc, which I'm sure wasn't any easier than Shallan's trip to the shattered plains. The result of this is a character that seems too perfect. We don't see Jasnah earn her "perfection" like we see Kaladin earn his place as leader of bridge four or Dalinar his position as a trusted bondsmith. What's more, we rarely get to see Jasnah being human. Imagine if we heard about Kaladin Stormblessed, then saw him solely through the eyes of the members of bridge four who aren't close to him. No backstory, just an awesome hero who shows up out of nowhere and saves everyone. I think Jasnah will be a much better character once she gets some focus, but we're probably not going to get that until the back half.

[Honorless he/him]

I mean technically she did have a character arc where she failed: getting proof on the Voidbringers to help combat the coming True Desolation. When she was finally able to come back from Shadesmar, the world had moved past the use of all that she had devoted her research to.

And I rather liked the way her "perfection" is used in RoW, both within the narrative and in a meta sense. Navani, Shallan, Adolin all comment on how Jasnah could've gotten it done. Dalinar and Renarin seem to have a more complete? relationship with her. People build her up both in the story and out of it, and the way she herself deals with her reputation was really quite interesting and iirc I commented on it a bit in the Rhythm of War reaction threads. And self-improvement is also the central theme of the Elsecallers, so I'd say that fits as well.

But yeah, shoving dealing with Darkeyes... slavery / indentured labour / forced labour on her instead of Kaladin was not a great look. Nor was that meme-worthy stick figure of the patriarchy. Instead of actually dealing with those themes, and her character is actually well-set to deal with the latter, so idk why that scene even existed, hilarious sure but pretty meh.

Really, I don't know what to tell you. Right now, Jasnah is representing a lot of things to a lot of people, but she's not a well-developed character as of yet, we haven't really explored her. She is the atheist and the woman in the patriarchal society and the utilitarian, and those are the things that people are enjoying and talking about, the things she represents.

[dannnex male]

8 hours ago, Sp00ks said:

Does anyone else kinda not like how Jasnah is handled? I don't really hate her or anything it's just, the way Brandon writes her just feels sorta off

The way this is phrased makes it sound like Jasnah is an externally-sourced character who Brandon isn't writing correctly, and I think if you analyze any character with that mindset, you're already set up for failure. (unless that character actually is externally-sourced i guess)

Brandon literally can't write Jasnah in a "way that feels off" because there is no way that feels on
this is the source material.

that isn't to say that he can't write Jasnah poorly, he can certainly do that. But as for developing the character as a whole, he can't do it incorrectly, because the way that he does it is just the way that it's done.

as for Jasnah feeling "too perfect", I have 2 points for that.

1. Jasnah isn't supposed to have much character development yet. She is going to be a, if not the, main character in the back five, I'd expect her to be fairly stagnant here. Gotta save stuff for later. 

2. I think that Jasnah's over-perfectness is handled pretty well actually. It's just that it's mainly done externally, as she doesn't have many viewpoints. She isn't like, accidentally perfect. It's not like the other characters don't acknowledge the abnormality that is Jasnah. They do, it is noted. It should be said that merely lampshading a point isn't enough to validate it, but I think it certainly helps in this case. 

 

I think that the real issue with Jasnah is that Brandon is doing things slightly out of order. Once the whole series is out, Jasnah will make much more sense.

Let me explain.

Right now, Jasnah is representative of tons of people. Let me steal some of Honorless's words:

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

She is the atheist and the woman in the patriarchal society and the utilitarian, and those are the things that people are enjoying and talking about, the things she represents.

Let me add a few more, she also represents the perfectionists, the scholars, and more recently, the ace. The problem with Jasnah at the moment is that she represents too many people, while not having enough character of her own at this point in the series. This makes her a bit of an empty shell, and I think people are labelling her and identifying with her too much, just based on the things she's representing. They are filling that shell with what they think she represents and how they think she should represent them. And that results in the feelings I mentioned at the very beginning of this post. 

Once Jasnah has a more developed character of her own, these front five will feel much more fitting to her character.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Dannnex

[cometaryorbit]

I agree and disagree.

I definitely don't see her as "perfect", I think her ethics are at times dangerously off - they lead her to do some great things, but also lead her in pretty dangerous directions. IMO she is too quickly willing to kill and to sacrifice others for a perceived greater good (admittedly she let herself get talked out of "let's go kill all the Heralds" - or at least talked into waiting and gathering more information - but that being her first proposal doesn't say great things about her).

I think why she seems "perfect" is that she is both hyper competent & follows her own ideals much more completely than most people do. But I don't think she is more so than is possible for RL people, though at the extreme end of what is possible.

And we haven't seen much of her POV outside a research situation; what we have seen suggests that she is not as completely put together as she presents herself as (eg her reaction to the Heralds' madness in Oathbringer).

And I think @Namelessis correct that Jasnah is much further along her character arc than other Radiants we've seen.

[Sp00ks]

12 hours ago, Dannnex said:

The way this is phrased makes it sound like Jasnah is an externally-sourced character who Brandon isn't writing correctly, and I think if you analyze any character with that mindset, you're already set up for failure. (unless that character actually is externally-sourced i guess)

Brandon literally can't write Jasnah in a "way that feels off" because there is no way that feels on
this is the source material.

that isn't to say that he can't write Jasnah poorly, he can certainly do that. But as for developing the character as a whole, he can't do it incorrectly, because the way that he does it is just the way that it's done.

Why waste half your post on a semantic argument? By "off", I quite clearly mean "it's quite different from all the other characters we have PoVs for" not "it's different from other people who have written Jasnah". 

[Pathfinder]

On 12/20/2021 at 8:46 PM, Sp00ks said:

Does anyone else kinda not like how Jasnah is handled? 

There are multiple threads, so you are not alone. I disagree with you, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, and maybe seeing the numerous other threads in the same vein will help. Some threads involve other topics, but some individuals state their distaste of her. (threads listed below, spoilered for length and organization)

 

threads that have a problem with Jasnah

Spoiler

 

 

threads that look at her capabilities

Spoiler

 

 

threads that look at her beliefs

Spoiler

 

 

 

Quote

Am I missing something?   All the other characters have their ideals and attitudes radically challenged and are forced to adapt and overcome things. Jasnah, despite having a pretty rediculous and arguably un-radiant moral code just succeeds at everything. I'd love to be convinced otherwise, it's just, it's been really bothering me on my second reread of the series 

I don't think you are missing something, she just doesn't work for you, which is ok. I have noticed an unfortunate trend that since her scenes are so rare, people tend to remember those scenes in an altered and extreme light. Which is why awhile back I wrote a thread to see things from Jasnah's perspective, and included full quotes from the book for reference. If you are so inclined, please check it out, but if not to each their own. As to her having an "un-radiant moral code", we have multiple WoB stating multiple orders would be completely fine with Jasnah, not only elsecallers. Further Jasnah is a confirmed Radiant of the 4th oath, so her code must be analogous with the order she is a part of otherwise she would be unable to progress. 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Pathfinder

[Sp00ks]

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

There are multiple threads, so you are not alone. I disagree with you, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, and maybe seeing the numerous other threads in the same vein will help. Some threads involve other topics, but some individuals state their distaste of her. (threads listed below, spoilered for length and organization)

 

 

Thanks!

[Anomander Rake he/him]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:56 AM, Dannnex said:

as for Jasnah feeling "too perfect", I have 2 points for that.

1. Jasnah isn't supposed to have much character development yet. She is going to be a, if not the, main character in the back five, I'd expect her to be fairly stagnant here. Gotta save stuff for later. 

2. I think that Jasnah's over-perfectness is handled pretty well actually. It's just that it's mainly done externally, as she doesn't have many viewpoints. She isn't like, accidentally perfect. It's not like the other characters don't acknowledge the abnormality that is Jasnah. They do, it is noted. It should be said that merely lampshading a point isn't enough to validate it, but I think it certainly helps in this case.

Exactly this.  Its actually something my eponymous character deals with as well, though for different reasons!  Rake's author chose not to write from his perspective because he couldn't properly capture it (super interesting story, please read about it here!), but because of that we get a super inflated and warped view of the character, who then becomes more of a force in the readers mind kind of like Jasnah.

Spoiler

But now, with his POV dumped, we were going to have to see him from the POV of others, lots of others.  And still more POVs were going to hear about him, or have beliefs about him, fears and other visceral responses, too.  In fact, everything we were going to find out about Anomander was going to come from all those POVs orbiting him.   I’d made the macro decision, right?  Rake’s POV was out.

Jump ahead years, and years.  Gardens of the Moon finds a publisher, the book comes out, fans start discussions online.  And I’m reading comments and I’m frowning.  What’s this?  Everybody going wild about Anomander Rake?  They’re raving about his badassery.  But … but?

Oh.  Well, storm me.  In retrospect it all makes sense.  And it has to do with something that’s integral to all fiction: psychic distance.  You see, something curious happens when you push a character back, when you elevate his badassery through hearsay and fear and terror all coming from other character POVs.  When people feel the effect of his arrival (Baruk).  When relatively under-powered characters get to witness what Rake does (Crokus).  When people run and hide just hearing his name (Quick Ben and Kalam).  Because, via those POVs I selected, the reader rides into the world, and in that world, nobody storms with Anomander Rake.

*edit* Spoiler for the article i linked, but TLDR, this is exactly what happens to Jasnah too!

Most of her in text mentions, to my recollection, are characters thinking about how smart she is or how hard she is working to figure x out, Shallan comparing herself to her, etc, so we tend to put her on this pedestal like the other characters do - we know more of the idea of Jasnah thus far, less of the charcter

 

*double edit* LMAO IT CHANGES THEM TO STORM(S) IM CRYING

Edited December 29, 2021 by Anomander Rake

[AquaRegia he/him]

3 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

... we get a super inflated and warped view of the character, who then becomes more of a force in the readers mind kind of like Jasnah... Most of her in text mentions, to my recollection, are characters thinking about how smart she is or how hard she is working to figure x out, Shallan comparing herself to her, etc, so we tend to put her on this pedestal like the other characters do - we know more of the idea of Jasnah thus far, less of the charcter

I definitely agree.  It's so much easier to identify and empathize with a character when you are seeing from their POV, and we have not had nearly as many Jasnah POVs as others.  For the same reason, we have a pretty extreme view of Gavilar... which I think will be shown to be fully justified soon.  ;-)

I do identify with Jasnah, especially her exasperation at feeling like the only rationalist in a sea of overemotional, superstitious dimwits.  I mean IRL - nobody HERE, of course!

Conversely, I really enjoy how the significant number of Taravangian POVs has resulted a troublesome Shard we can identify and empathize with.  It's going to make conflicts MUCH more intense, personal, and, well, believable going forward.

3 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

*double edit* LMAO IT CHANGES THEM TO STORM(S) IM CRYING

I know, right?  I, for one, LOVE our storming automods!  Welcome to the Shard!