theory Yelig-nar the Shin warrior

[Aspiring Writer]

So Yelig-nar has always intrigued me as an unmade, as he allows whoever bonds to him access to all the ten surges, which can create a very powerful warrior out of a man, but when Amaram bonded to him, he used very few of the surges he had access to and used them clumsily, clearly inexperienced. So while I still thought Yelig-nar was a powerful unmade, it would be very difficult to find a host that could actually use him to his full potential, so i thought who would be a worthy host of Yelig-nar, and I remembered that Szeth trained in all ten surges because of the honorblades. Now I don't think Szeth is going to become Yelig-nar, but Szeth cannot be the only one who trained with all the honorblades, so there must be another Shin who has trained in all ten surges, making them the perfect host to bond with Yelig-nar. What do you think of this theory?

[Eternal Khol]

52 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

So Yelig-nar has always intrigued me as an unmade, as he allows whoever bonds to him access to all the ten surges, which can create a very powerful warrior out of a man, but when Amaram bonded to him, he used very few of the surges he had access to and used them clumsily, clearly inexperienced. So while I still thought Yelig-nar was a powerful unmade, it would be very difficult to find a host that could actually use him to his full potential, so i thought who would be a worthy host of Yelig-nar, and I remembered that Szeth trained in all ten surges because of the honorblades. Now I don't think Szeth is going to become Yelig-nar, but Szeth cannot be the only one who trained with all the honorblades, so there must be another Shin who has trained in all ten surges, making them the perfect host to bond with Yelig-nar. What do you think of this theory?

The Shin didn’t train with all of the Honorblades, so they didn’t have all of the surges. They were missing one(now two). But i see your point, and i could definitely see the next host for Yelig-nar being A Shin who has trained with the Honorblades.

thought the Shin seem to be the ones who remember the most truth about the desolations and Honor and Odium and all that(they probably remember the most, as a people. Even if its not much), and dont know if you’d actually be able to find one who both trained with the Honorblades and will side with the singers(really odium)

 

edit: I totally forgot, you only need 5 Honorblades to have access to all ten surges(which the Shin do have)

Edited November 4, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Aspiring Writer]

6 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

The Shin didn’t train with all of the Honorblades. They were missing one(now two). But i see your point, and i could definitely see the next host for Yelig-nar being A Shin who has trained with the Honorblades.

thought the Shin seem to be the ones who remember the most truth about the desolations and Honor and Odium and all that(they probably remember the most, as a people. Even if its not much), and dont know if you’d actually be able to find one who both trained with the Honorblades and will side with the singers(really odium)

 

edit: I totally forgot, you only need 5 Honorblades to have access to all ten surges(which the Shin do have)

Yeah, I misspoke there, I meant they trained in all ten surges with their eight honor blades, as Szeth admitted to being familiar with all ten surges, though he is probably best with using lashings. Another thing I will point out just because it's an interesting tidbit, but the Shin no longer have access to all the surges, as the two blades with access to the surge of gravitation are now with the herald and Moash, which I find interesting and wonder if that will ever be important. However, the theory still holds as while they no longer have that blade to train people with lashings, they probably have those who trained with them before Szeth took the blade.

[Use the Falchion]

I think the idea is cool, but it may feel too much like Kaladin vs Amaram. Or maybe it's just how I'm picturing it. In my mind's eye, I see Szeth having a rival or mentor as a young, promising Stone Shaman acolyte (not confirmed but I'm willing to wager some absolutely nothing that Szeth was an acolyte). Over the course of the flashbacks, we see that person become Szeth's ally and friend, but ultimately betray Szeth's confidence and have our favorite Shin assassin deemed Truthless. Now, with the return of the Desolation, this person was also deemed Truthless - after all, Mr. T had notes on how to make one if he truly needed to IIRC. So it should be possible to make another. Szeth comes to cleanse Shinovar, but now must fight the person he once held in such high esteem. The Truthless that comes to cleanse them in blood vs the soul sentenced to death that will chariot them into glorious captivity. ...or some such nonsense. The important question is: are you really redeemed if you're killed for your mistakes in a justified cleanse? Or is life always worth it, even if its now life as a slave?

Again, cool idea and concept, but the Amaram vs Kaladin fight already had that undertone of "you looked up to me and betrayed you," IMO. 

Do you see this differently than I do? If so, please share!

[+Harrycrapper]

Something I always thought was odd; at the end of OB, Nale says he'll find Szeth again and teach him the Surge of Division. Shouldn't Szeth already know how to use it? Even if he never trained on Nale's blade, he could have used the Dustbringer one. 

[KandraAllomancer]

17 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Something I always thought was odd; at the end of OB, Nale says he'll find Szeth again and teach him the Surge of Division. Shouldn't Szeth already know how to use it? Even if he never trained on Nale's blade, he could have used the Dustbringer one. 

We know that Dustbringers gain their access to Division in a very slow way, closely related to their Oaths:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Dustbringer

I will seek self-mastery

Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility.

Dustbringers—though they sometimes objected to the common name for their order, preferring instead to be called Releasers—are living contradictions among the Knights Radiant. They believe great power requires a strong will to control it. They often attract tinkerers who like to dig down into the shape and soul of a thing, break it, and see what makes it work. However, their oaths are themed toward control—that they need to be able to control, contain, and channel the terrible power inside them. They tend to object to those who focus only on their destructive sides, as they argue that in order to create, one must understand the pieces of the thing they are trying to make. They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. If you want a large swath of land destroyed or burned, you call in the Dustbringers. However, they were also often used as sappers, engineers, and strategists.

They attract anyone who likes to take things apart, who likes to know how things work. They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

I would imagine it might also be the case for Skybeakers: it's not as much how to use Division, but how to get Division in the first place

[Aspiring Writer]

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I think the idea is cool, but it may feel too much like Kaladin vs Amaram. Or maybe it's just how I'm picturing it. In my mind's eye, I see Szeth having a rival or mentor as a young, promising Stone Shaman acolyte (not confirmed but I'm willing to wager some absolutely nothing that Szeth was an acolyte). Over the course of the flashbacks, we see that person become Szeth's ally and friend, but ultimately betray Szeth's confidence and have our favorite Shin assassin deemed Truthless. Now, with the return of the Desolation, this person was also deemed Truthless - after all, Mr. T had notes on how to make one if he truly needed to IIRC. So it should be possible to make another. Szeth comes to cleanse Shinovar, but now must fight the person he once held in such high esteem. The Truthless that comes to cleanse them in blood vs the soul sentenced to death that will chariot them into glorious captivity. ...or some such nonsense. The important question is: are you really redeemed if you're killed for your mistakes in a justified cleanse? Or is life always worth it, even if its now life as a slave?

Again, cool idea and concept, but the Amaram vs Kaladin fight already had that undertone of "you looked up to me and betrayed you," IMO. 

Do you see this differently than I do? If so, please share!

I just see a Shin getting Yeli-nar, I never thought of the personal conflict, though that would probably be the case if it's true. I'm not sure, but it certainly gives Szeth his match. Perhaps Szeth will wield more honorblades and gain all ten surges to fight this shin. that would be epic. Whether it would be a repeat... I think there can be a unique spin on it if it wasn't a mentor, having Szeth hate this person and having to decide his faith on what he feels is just.

 

2 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

Something I always thought was odd; at the end of OB, Nale says he'll find Szeth again and teach him the Surge of Division. Shouldn't Szeth already know how to use it? Even if he never trained on Nale's blade, he could have used the Dustbringer one. 

That is a good point, but I will also point out that Szeth while adept at all ten may not have mastered all ten. He clearly is a master for the surge of gravitation, and he may just be aware of the technical aspects of the surges fro haveing useing them, but mastering them might be something he would need from a herald with thousands of years of experince with the surge of division. 

[kaellok]

4 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Now I don't think Szeth is going to become Yelig-nar, but Szeth cannot be the only one who trained with all the honorblades, so there must be another Shin who has trained in all ten surges, making them the perfect host to bond with Yelig-nar. What do you think of this theory?

I was reading through your post, with you the entire way, and then this threw me completely hahah.  First off, I do think that a Shin who has trained with all 10 Surges through use of the Honorblades will be much more devastating when Bonded with Yelig-Nar than Amaram was.  Despite the tricks and tactics employed by Amaram, Kaladin would clearly have won handily if not for the Fused and the need to protect Dalinar.  Obviously the significant reason for this was that Amaram focused on using what he was familiar with: Plate and Blade.

Szeth-gar would likely trounce Kaladin in a 1v1 fight at this point.  Maybe not an easy kill if Kaladin levels up to Windrunner 4, tho.

But where I thought you were going with this was that Szeth is the perfect person to trap Yelig-nar in a perfect gem.  It takes true understanding of the full nature of the Unmade to call them, to trap them.  Dalinar and the Thrill, Shallan and Re-Shephir, Szeth and Yelig-nar.  In many ways, those three Unmade are the worst version of those three Radiants, meaning that they are uniquely vulnerable to them, but also most likely to be able to trap them.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, kaellok said:

I was reading through your post, with you the entire way, and then this threw me completely hahah.  First off, I do think that a Shin who has trained with all 10 Surges through use of the Honorblades will be much more devastating when Bonded with Yelig-Nar than Amaram was.  Despite the tricks and tactics employed by Amaram, Kaladin would clearly have won handily if not for the Fused and the need to protect Dalinar.  Obviously the significant reason for this was that Amaram focused on using what he was familiar with: Plate and Blade.

Szeth-gar would likely trounce Kaladin in a 1v1 fight at this point.  Maybe not an easy kill if Kaladin levels up to Windrunner 4, tho.

But where I thought you were going with this was that Szeth is the perfect person to trap Yelig-nar in a perfect gem.  It takes true understanding of the full nature of the Unmade to call them, to trap them.  Dalinar and the Thrill, Shallan and Re-Shephir, Szeth and Yelig-nar.  In many ways, those three Unmade are the worst version of those three Radiants, meaning that they are uniquely vulnerable to them, but also most likely to be able to trap them.

That may still happen, as a post above did mention that if a Shin gets his hand on it, Szeth will have to take care of it. And I do think someone of or close to Szeth's skill having trained with Honorblades is possible. So Szeth may also have to trap them, though I will mention that may not even be needed, as Nightblood might actually be able to consume the unmade, so trapping it might not be needed.

[Realmatic Shadow]

4 hours ago, kaellok said:

But where I thought you were going with this was that Szeth is the perfect person to trap Yelig-nar in a perfect gem.  It takes true understanding of the full nature of the Unmade to call them, to trap them.  Dalinar and the Thrill, Shallan and Re-Shephir, Szeth and Yelig-nar.  In many ways, those three Unmade are the worst version of those three Radiants, meaning that they are uniquely vulnerable to them, but also most likely to be able to trap them

Maybe there is one Unmade each for most of our main character Radiants (and maybe a shared one between the two viewpoint Heralds, that relates to their insanities) that they are uniquely close to, and can thus trap in a perfect gem. Would be an interesting trend to set, though I do think it would get repetitive quite quickly.

4 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

So Szeth may also have to trap them, though I will mention that may not even be needed, as Nightblood might actually be able to consume the unmade, so trapping it might not be needed.

This could be a good way for the Coalition to discover the true destructive power of Nighthblood, and just how much of a threat that he can pose. I would be curious of any precautions that Odium may have taken since seeing Nighblood used in combat (as they can kill Rayse easily, regardless of the Shard he holds), and what the Stormfather thinks of the sword.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

Maybe there is one Unmade each for most of our main character Radiants (and maybe a shared one between the two viewpoint Heralds, that relates to their insanities) that they are uniquely close to, and can thus trap in a perfect gem. Would be an interesting trend to set, though I do think it would get repetitive quite quickly.

This could be a good way for the Coalition to discover the true destructive power of Nighthblood, and just how much of a threat that he can pose. I would be curious of any precautions that Odium may have taken since seeing Nighblood used in combat (as they can kill Rayse easily, regardless of the Shard he holds), and what the Stormfather thinks of the sword.

I can safely say Szeth is the character I most want to see right now in RoW. And while the Unmade will have some personal conflict, I do believe they will still vary enough to be unique, and Sja-anet may not need to be trapped if she really is defecting (Please let it be true!) 

And yes, this would probably freak everyone out when they see what Nightblood is capable of. WE still don't know what he's capable of. And Odium would certainly be afriad of Szeth once finding out how terrible that weapon is against his forces. (Though on an unrelated note, I like how both Szeth and Nale have two shard blades that are superior to regular shard blades and clearly use the superior one as the main one, though with Szeth, that may chaneg quickly as it's less dangerous to use a normal shardblade) However, I don't think Nightblood is a threat to Odium right now, as Odium is on Braize and not Roshar, and when he appears on Roshar, he is bending light and stuff to make a form for him, so Nightblood wouldn't kill him. He'd still probably want to avoid him, though, and maybe get it for himself. As for the STormfather... let's just say I like every line he has.

[kaellok]

19 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

However, I don't think Nightblood is a threat to Odium right now, as Odium is on Braize and not Roshar, and when he appears on Roshar, he is bending light and stuff to make a form for him, so Nightblood wouldn't kill him. He'd still probably want to avoid him, though, and maybe get it for himself

There's a few WoB about this, actually!  The short of it is that Nightblood is a rather larger threat to the Vessel, than to the Shard.  And we saw Odium take some proactive defensive measures in the Thaylen City battle that hint that he's strongly aware of Nightblood's capability.

[Aspiring Writer]

20 minutes ago, kaellok said:

There's a few WoB about this, actually!  The short of it is that Nightblood is a rather larger threat to the Vessel, than to the Shard.  And we saw Odium take some proactive defensive measures in the Thaylen City battle that hint that he's strongly aware of Nightblood's capability.

Please give me those WoBs of you find them, and that still makes me question if odium is enough on Roshar in that battle that Nightblood would be a threat to the vessel.

[kaellok]

Spoilers for the WoB

Spoiler

Quote

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)
#23 Share Copy

Play/PauseQuestioner

So at the end of [Oathbringer], how aware is Odium of what Nightblood is and can do?

Brandon Sanderson

Modestly. 

Questioner

Taking the sheath, that kind of thing?

Brandon Sanderson

He knows. I would say more than modestly, he is well aware

 

and I might have been reading a little too much into this one below

Spoiler

Quote

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)
#43 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

Mason Wheeler

You said that every rational being in the Cosmere who knows about Nightblood is terrified of him. Does that include Vessels?

Brandon Sanderson

There are Vessels who are scared, yes. That does include Vessels. Terrified might be a strong term, but yes.

 

and another that doesn't quite say what I remembered

Spoiler

Quote

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)
#38 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

Questioner

If it's possible for Nightblood to actually interact with a Shard, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shard would try to stay very far away from Nightblood. Nightblood could not plausibly destroy an entire Shard but the Vessel could be in danger.

 

 

[Chanarach]

13 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

So Yelig-nar has always intrigued me as an unmade, as he allows whoever bonds to him access to all the ten surges, which can create a very powerful warrior out of a man, but when Amaram bonded to him, he used very few of the surges he had access to and used them clumsily, clearly inexperienced. So while I still thought Yelig-nar was a powerful unmade, it would be very difficult to find a host that could actually use him to his full potential, so i thought who would be a worthy host of Yelig-nar, and I remembered that Szeth trained in all ten surges because of the honorblades. Now I don't think Szeth is going to become Yelig-nar, but Szeth cannot be the only one who trained with all the honorblades, so there must be another Shin who has trained in all ten surges, making them the perfect host to bond with Yelig-nar. What do you think of this theory?

I like it and can definitely see it happening. It's not the worst thing that could happen.  Would terrifies me is Yelig merging with Nale.  The Heralds did the same thing, swapped each others blades to practice with them, so he knows all surges, and he's got to be better with them than Joe six pack stone shaman. 

One thing I'll say about training in all 10 surges is remember they are different depending on order (  ex. Bondsmith adhesion vs windrunner).