239 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

 

Sounds like Lightning Redirection from Avatar then. :o

You could maybe even use augmenting Fabrials to generate lightening, if they do more than just augment. Kind of like the offensive Painrial. 

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52 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Yeah, then a repulsion Fabrial to shoot it away. 

Oh I did not even consider that step necessary(or safe really).  Attraction will draw lightning out of the area around it.  Aim correctly and you have a fairly good short range blast as it will move through whoever is right in front of you.  However if you release it the lightning could be drawn to almost anything in the area.

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1 hour ago, Innovation said:

You could maybe even use augmenting Fabrials to generate lightening, if they do more than just augment. Kind of like the offensive Painrial. 

A Lightningspren with a Pewter cage ought to produce lightning if Pewter makes a Flamespren produce heat.

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5 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

A Lightningspren with a Pewter cage ought to produce lightning if Pewter makes a Flamespren produce heat.

Stormlight to electricity conversion anyone? A way for them to kick-start some research into electricity and its applications?

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I don't think an attractor is gonna get you the kind of weapon you want here, unless you happen to already be in middle of a thunderstorm. Like it won't create lightning, just pull in any that happens to be nearby. 

So really what you want is an Augmenter to create lightning and a repulser to shoot it. 

But, I mean, all of this sounds ridiculously unsafe to me. Using an attractor means getting hit by lightning and hoping it all flows into the gem instead of killing you. Using an augmenter means creating a lightning bolt and hoping you can shoot it faster than it would take to kill you. And the repulser would have to be rigged to hit a precise target instead of just diffusing it into the general area, which sounds like a lot of dangerous trial and error.

But @Realmatic Shadow is here bringing up a much more practical idea. Though really I don't know how much they need electricity; stormlight is almost as good or better for most the immediate applications of electricity, and cleverly applied heatrials gets you a lot more. 

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48 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I don't think an attractor is gonna get you the kind of weapon you want here, unless you happen to already be in middle of a thunderstorm. Like it won't create lightning, just pull in any that happens to be nearby. 

Physically lightning is called a discharge.  It happens when too many electrons are concentrated in one place.  An attractor should cause electrons to move to one place creating lightning.

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I really don't think the realmatics are gonna work out that way. Like, spren are defined by perception. Surely a culture that hasn't discovered elections is not going to mentally define lightning as 'a bunch of electrons in a single place', and therefore that's not how a lightningspren-powered attractor would work.

You'd need to skip far enough down the road for there to be an Electricityspren rather than a Lightningspren for stuff like that to be feasible. 

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50 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I really don't think the realmatics are gonna work out that way. Like, spren are defined by perception. Surely a culture that hasn't discovered elections is not going to mentally define lightning as 'a bunch of electrons in a single place', and therefore that's not how a lightningspren-powered attractor would work.

You'd need to skip far enough down the road for there to be an Electricityspren rather than a Lightningspren for stuff like that to be feasible. 

Except in some way physics does play a part with Spren. This can be seen with the observations of the flamespren. So while perception does have importance, natural physics do too. Remember, perception in the Cognitive Realm isn't just how Sapiant beings perceive them but also how objects and people perceive themselves.

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5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Except in some way physics does play a part with Spren. This can be seen with the observations of the flamespren. So while perception does have importance, natural physics do too. Remember, perception in the Cognitive Realm isn't just how Sapiant beings perceive them but also how objects and people perceive themselves.

Well, yes, technically, but the way objects see themselves is defined by the way people think about them over time. Like the temple Dalinar repaired saw itself as a beautiful work of art because of the way people had admired it over the centuries.

And, no, that's the opposite of what the flamespren scene was showing. It was saying that once you obverse how long a flamespren is; once you decide in your head that this particular flamespren is this long, then that flamespren is defined as being that long and can no longer change length. The point of the scene was to show just how defined by perception they are. 

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@Gilphon except Brandon explicitly states that scene was a nod to properties of the natural world.

Quote

Questioner

I'm a physical chemist and I'm reading your book [The Way of Kings] right now and at some point you have someone studying flamespren and what they saw, that's one of the fundamental tenets of quantum mechanics--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

So you got that from quantum mechanics?

Brandon Sanderson

I did get that from quantum mechanics.

Questioner

How did you come across that and decide to incorporate that into your epic fantasy?

Brandon Sanderson

Well The Way of Kings' magic systems are based on the fundamental forces. That was the original idea and the extrapolation from them. I'm fascinated by quantum mechanics and I have worked them into the way that-- Remember in my worlds, my books, the magics are a new branch of physics, in these worlds. And so they interact with our normal physics, it's not like they are ignoring them, so they obey the laws of thermodynamics, even when they appear to be breaking them, and they interact with quantum and all the stuff. It's just very natural that they are going to, to me if that makes sense? It would be weird if they didn't interact with them.

Edit: An example is Pattern, most Rosharans (if any) wouldn't have any understanding or concept of fractals and the complicated mathematical concepts that he represents

Edited by StanLemon
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Wait I'm new to this topic-have people talked about the potential effects of singers undergoing surgery and having metal wiring placed around their gemhearts? How would this alter their forms? 

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4 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Wait I'm new to this topic-have people talked about the potential effects of singers undergoing surgery and having metal wiring placed around their gemhearts? How would this alter their forms? 

Um wow.  You would need to do some pretty severe stuff for that to work but It should work.  I don't know if it would alter their forms although now that you mention it I think it odd that singers drink water that has metals in it without harm.

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9 hours ago, StanLemon said:

An example is Pattern, most Rosharans (if any) wouldn't have any understanding or concept of fractals and the complicated mathematical concepts that he represents

What makes you say that? A fractal isn't exactly a hard concept to arrive at, and Roshar's society isn't particularly primitive. Like, they've developed a theory of particle physics. A fairly rudimentary one by our standards, but one advanced enough that you'd need fairly complicated mathematics to makes senses of it. 

Like, they clearly have a concept of fundamental forces, and have scientists working on figuring out how they interact. Once you start asking questions like 'how does gravity interact with friction', the kind of math that Pattern represents is right around the corner.

As for that WoB- well, first of all, that scene is not how actual quantum physics works. It's a scene designed to invoke the idea of quantum physics in the reader's mind, and get them thinking about this kind of thing in the context real world physics- and, indeed, it is in fact a nod to the fact that quantum physics is a thing that exists in Cosmere- but quantum physics is not why that flamespren lost the ability to change its length. 

To apply all this to the specific example that sparked this- if you used a Lightningspren augmenter to create lightning, said lightning would probably be made of electrons, or something very similar to electrons. But a lightningspren is made of the idea of lightning, not the idea of electrons, and so a lightningspren attractor wouldn't be able to pull in electrons. For the same reasons that a Diamondspren attractor would only be able to pull in diamonds, not graphite or coal or exhaled breath, even though all of those things are made of Carbon. 

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18 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

What makes you say that? A fractal isn't exactly a hard concept to arrive at, and Roshar's society isn't particularly primitive. Like, they've developed a theory of particle physics. A fairly rudimentary one by our standards, but one advanced enough that you'd need fairly complicated mathematics to makes senses of it. 

Like, they clearly have a concept of fundamental forces, and have scientists working on figuring out how they interact. Once you start asking questions like 'how does gravity interact with friction', the kind of math that Pattern represents is right around the corner.

As for that WoB- well, first of all, that scene is not how actual quantum physics works. It's a scene designed to invoke the idea of quantum physics in the reader's mind, and get them thinking about this kind of thing in the context real world physics- and, indeed, it is in fact a nod to the fact that quantum physics is a thing that exists in Cosmere- but quantum physics is not why that flamespren lost the ability to change its length. 

To apply all this to the specific example that sparked this- if you used a Lightningspren augmenter to create lightning, said lightning would probably be made of electrons, or something very similar to electrons. But a lightningspren is made of the idea of lightning, not the idea of electrons, and so a lightningspren attractor wouldn't be able to pull in electrons. For the same reasons that a Diamondspren attractor would only be able to pull in diamonds, not graphite or coal or exhaled breath, even though all of those things are made of Carbon. 

The problem with your argument, and why it being in this thread really doesn't help is that it is clear that there are Realmantic physics involved and that the concept and perception of something isn't the end all be all. The WoB I posted clearly has Brandon saying that Realmatic physics are involved. 

By your logic a Flamespren wouldn't be able to be used in Fabrials to heat a room if they were just the idea of flame. They would need to use a Heatspren to heat a room.  A Flamespren would only create fire. But that isn't the case. There are clearly physical interactions by which the Flamespren converts Stormlight to heat

Edited by StanLemon
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Everybody knows that fire gives off heat, so the ideas of heat and fire are gonna be closely linked. Possibly there isn't even a Heatspren that's different enough from a Flamespren for people to notice a difference. 

And, no, that's not what the WoB says. First he says that he got the idea of the scene from quantum physics, and then he moves on to talking in more general terms about he likes his magic system to interact with real world physics rather than ignore them outright.

And, well Here's a WoB where he talking about that scene being a perception-based 'fantastical quantum physics' rather than real quantum physics:

Quote

manugutito

Just remembered another physics-related question that has been in the back of my mind since forever! (And this one is no RAFO-candidate, in my mind at least)

The scene in question is that interlude on SA where two scholars measure the size of spren, and they find that the size oscillates until measured, and then it remains fixed at the measured value. This is totally equivalent to projective measurements in quantum physics, was that your inspiration on this one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, quantum physics plays a role in the way the cosmere works, and this was partially intended to display that. However, we do take a different route, as thinking about something can directly influence it in the cosmere. So it's more a fantastical version of quantum physics.

 
 

And here's another one where he admits that he's going for with a 'pop culture version' of quantum physics than the real thing. More like the idea of quantum physics than how it actually works in the real world:

Quote

Questioner

So, there's a line in Elantris that has always fascinated me. Raoden is reading really old books, and he says that some of these books mention words such as "frequency" and "pulse length." I'm a physics major, this reminds me a lot of quantum physics.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it does!

Questioner

So, my question is, how much is quantum physics a part of the magic in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing. I don't know quantum physics well enough. That's a rabbit hole; I am an armchair scientist, I do not have a degree in physics. And so, while I really like it, I build it in... When I'm doing this, what I usually do is I build in cosmere versions, so I can't be held accountable to getting some little thing wrong. So, yes, quantum physics is important. But, in some ways, some of the things in the cosmere are more like the pop science version of quantum physics, what everyone thinks quantum physics is but really isn't, are actually some of the things in the cosmere. The fun, awesome version of quantum physics. I try to make some of it as accurate as I can, not having a physics degree. But I have to be aware that... I am not writing science fiction, I'm writing fantasy, so there will be things that you're like, "That's not quite right," but it works in the cosmere.

Questioner

Anywhere I should keep my eye out for more stuff like that.

Brandon Sanderson

In Words of Radiance... when was the interlude, is it in the first book? The spren, they took their measurements. That's part of it. We're gonna have, just, little things like that around that are relevant, but I'm not gonna dig into it deeply until [Mistborn] Era 4, probably.

 

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17 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Everybody knows that fire gives off heat, so the ideas of heat and fire are gonna be closely linked. Possibly there isn't even a Heatspren that's different enough from a Flamespren for people to notice a difference. 

And static electricity exists. It's a know thing that "lightning" isn't limited to storms. That on some level it exists in the environment. 

17 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

And, no, that's not what the WoB says. First he says that he got the idea of the scene from quantum physics, and then he moves on to talking in more general terms about he likes his magic system to interact with real world physics rather than ignore them outright.

And, well Here's a WoB where he talking about that scene being a perception-based 'fantastical quantum physics' rather than real quantum physics:

And here's another one where he admits that he's going for with a 'pop culture version' of quantum physics than the real thing. More like the idea of quantum physics than how it actually works in the real world:

and these help your argument how? They basically are Brandon does care for physics he just doesn't know enough to go deep into it. And fantastical science is a theme in the Cosmere.

The presence of Investiture and the three Realms give fantastical aspects to it but Brandon has repeatedly shown that even his fantastical elements work with physics. If a lightningspren generates lightning for instance, it's still lightning and therefore electricity. I think the attractor idea is impractical but it isn't outside the realm of possibility. Spren while being living concepts still will retain properties the concept is of. Back to Cryptids, they are viewed as liespren but that isn't all they are and are tied to patterns and the underlying aspects of those patterns

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7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

and these help your argument how? They basically are Brandon does care for physics he just doesn't know enough to go deep into it. And fantastical science is a theme in the Cosmere.

So I had thought it would be clear, but apparently it wasn't. Let me clarify, then. This bit, specially: 

Quote

Yes, quantum physics plays a role in the way the cosmere works, and this was partially intended to display that. However, we do take a different route, as thinking about something can directly influence it in the cosmere. So it's more a fantastical version of quantum physics.

Is my entire point. This is perception-based stuff that (not coincidentally, from Brandon's perspective) happens to resemble the pop culture version of quantum physics, but isn't actually quantum physics. One of the reasons that's true is because doing it like that allows Brandon to hand-wave away anything that doesn't match how quantum physics are supposed to work in the real world, so he can write it without a physics degree. 

Therefore, it should not be taken as a sign that particle physics matter more than perception for spren. It is, in fact, doing the opposite; it's showing that Brandon fully intends to use perception to paper over any physics-based plot holes with how the magic works. It's showing that for spren, perception matters more than physics. 

Which means that using a Lightningspren to pull random electrons out of the air in order to create lightning isn't going to work if you don't know that electrons exist. However, using Lightningspren augmenter-generated lightning to power an electronic machine probably would work, assuming you could figure out a way to make that design safe, because what's generated is gonna be close enough to lightning that Rosharan scholars can't tell the difference, and if you enough of concept of electricity advanced enough to think of building a device like that, it's probably close enough to function identically for the machine.

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I have not said that physics are more important, however you do downplay their importance. While Brandon does use the Cognitive to gloss over, he has consistently in his writing and comments that he does care about physics interactions with his magic systems even if it isn’t perfect *cough*Feruchemy*cough. I agree that an augmenter is both more practical and likely to be done, but that doesn't mean that people's perceptions are everything. I have given examples with the Cryptids on how despite them being Cognitive beings they are more tied to the math underlying their patterns than people's perceptions and beliefs would say of them. This likely applies to all or at least most spren that are built on natural forces. The attractor for instance, no one would likely even try that unless they have at least a simple underlying understanding of how electricity works but that doesn't mean it isn't part of the spren's nature. 

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On 2.09.2020 at 6:28 PM, StanLemon said:

Of all the metals, Iron and Steel seem the most likely to me for Conjoiners and Reversers respectively 

Conjoiners and Reversers are wierd fabrials. Maybe because how popular they are, noone looks at the difference between them and "normal" fabrials.

They dont need cages. Navani in new chapter just casualy pick up ruby and place it on reed. Also, this ruby was active alone, without reed (or anything). Earlier, we have mention that gems have to be split from one and two halves move as one (in same direction rubys, in opposite direction amethysts). Only gems. Without metal cages. They always behave the same way, they dont have modificators of mouvment (if one move, other half move with the same speed, with respective direction - same or opposite).

So no metal is needet to make conjoiners and reversers. Its all precisely cuted gem and spren. I think in fact, pair of conjoiners (or reversers) are not two fabrials, but ONE fabrial. They contain only one spren in two gems - and this is why they move as one. Because they ARE one.

And now starts the funny part.

Because spren need to be physicly (or cognitivly) split to be in two pieces, but also need to be one spiritualy. And this will be not nice. Spliting process is probably very painfull for spren, because of perception (is one entity, should be in one place, but now is in two places! Error).

This explains also, why Navani had this wierd message in last chapter. Technology was available earlier, but spanreeds, even now more popular, are still not as popular as they could be. Also, once reed is made, can last very long (we dont know about cracked gems in spanreed), so spren is in wierd state, but not in pain. On the other hand, to move airship, is needet thousands gems. this meen thousands spren splited. Also, we know that gems can crack. When gem crack, crew need to replace it with new pair. This mean, more and more suffering spren. And will be only worse, because we all know that it not ends on one ship.

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Well this was a pleasant surprise. Asked Brandon a couple of questions via Reddit PM and he answered within a couple days. One of those questions is of relevance to this topic, so I'll transcribe it here for y'all and include a screenshot of the original PMs for proof.

Quote

Halyo_Alex


Greetings! I just have one or two little questions I thought of after reading some of the RoW preview chapters and their epigraphs on fabrials.

Firstly, you've said before that Soulcasting can't create Atium or Lerasium ( https://wob.coppermind.net/events/136/#e2661 ) which makes sense since they're made of Investiture from other Shards. But could a Soulcaster, perhaps in the proximity of Dalinar's perpendicularity, provide enough Stormlight to Soulcast something into Honor's Godmetal (Tanavastium)? What about Cultivation's metal, or an alloy of both, like Shardblade metal?

And secondly, on the topic of Shardblade metal, could that be used as the metal cage for a Fabrial with an actual effect like the mundane metals we've seen so far?

Thanks so much for taking the time to read this! :D

Brandon Sanderson

What excellent questions.

So, creating a God Metal is not something that's done easily in the Cosmere. HOWEVER, it is possible. You'd need a ton of Investiture, and being near Dalinar's perpendicularity is unlikely to be enough. I'd say Soulcasting, or something akin to it, has the means to do this if it could obtain the proper power charge.

Shardblade metal could be used in a cage, if you could figure out how to do it, and it would have an effect--though I won't say what.

Thanks for reading! And for your interest.
Brandon

 

Reddit WoB.jpg

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Thanks for the unique WOBs. It is not terribly surprising, but nice to know that god metals are viable metals for fabrial construction. 

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3 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said:

Thanks for the unique WOBs. It is not terribly surprising, but nice to know that god metals are viable metals for fabrial construction. 

Agreed. I am curious about the specifics of it though. Maybe at some point we'll see Navani ask someone from bridge 4 at the third ideal to try it out.

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4 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Conjoiners and Reversers are wierd fabrials. Maybe because how popular they are, noone looks at the difference between them and "normal" fabrials.

They dont need cages. Navani in new chapter just casualy pick up ruby and place it on reed. Also, this ruby was active alone, without reed (or anything). Earlier, we have mention that gems have to be split from one and two halves move as one (in same direction rubys, in opposite direction amethysts). Only gems. Without metal cages. They always behave the same way, they dont have modificators of mouvment (if one move, other half move with the same speed, with respective direction - same or opposite).

So no metal is needet to make conjoiners and reversers. Its all precisely cuted gem and spren. I think in fact, pair of conjoiners (or reversers) are not two fabrials, but ONE fabrial. They contain only one spren in two gems - and this is why they move as one. Because they ARE one.

And now starts the funny part.

Because spren need to be physicly (or cognitivly) split to be in two pieces, but also need to be one spiritualy. And this will be not nice. Spliting process is probably very painfull for spren, because of perception (is one entity, should be in one place, but now is in two places! Error).

This explains also, why Navani had this wierd message in last chapter. Technology was available earlier, but spanreeds, even now more popular, are still not as popular as they could be. Also, once reed is made, can last very long (we dont know about cracked gems in spanreed), so spren is in wierd state, but not in pain. On the other hand, to move airship, is needet thousands gems. this meen thousands spren splited. Also, we know that gems can crack. When gem crack, crew need to replace it with new pair. This mean, more and more suffering spren. And will be only worse, because we all know that it not ends on one ship.

This makes a lot of sense. I was wondering if this was the case after I was reminded that attractors existed. 

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On 9/3/2020 at 10:02 AM, Gilphon said:

To apply all this to the specific example that sparked this- if you used a Lightningspren augmenter to create lightning, said lightning would probably be made of electrons, or something very similar to electrons. But a lightningspren is made of the idea of lightning, not the idea of electrons, and so a lightningspren attractor wouldn't be able to pull in electrons. For the same reasons that a Diamondspren attractor would only be able to pull in diamonds, not graphite or coal or exhaled breath, even though all of those things are made of Carbon. 

But cognitively diamonds and coal have nothing to do with each other.  Otherwise you could soulcast with charcoal. 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:22 PM, Gilphon said:

Which means that using a Lightningspren to pull random electrons out of the air in order to create lightning isn't going to work if you don't know that electrons exist.

In that case what will happen?  Lets say the someone wants to protect their home from lightning so they make a fabrail that will draw it away from their home to a safe area.  If they leave it on what will happen?  You say nothing as there is no lightning in the area.  However heat lightning should be attracted.  So should static electrisity.  No one actually knows where either of those come from.  Also if it is a cloudy day couldn't lightning be pulled from the clouds even if no storm is going on? 

5 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

They dont need cages. Navani in new chapter just casualy pick up ruby and place it on reed

Presumably the reed was made of metal.

2 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Well this was a pleasant surprise. Asked Brandon a couple of questions via Reddit PM and he answered within a couple days. One of those questions is of relevance to this topic, so I'll transcribe it here for y'all and include a screenshot of the original PMs for proof.

Great job.  Make sure those go to the arcanum!

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26 minutes ago, Karger said:

In that case what will happen?  Lets say the someone wants to protect their home from lightning so they make a fabrail that will draw it away from their home to a safe area.  If they leave it on what will happen?  You say nothing as there is no lightning in the area.  However heat lightning should be attracted.  So should static electrisity.  No one actually knows where either of those come from.  Also if it is a cloudy day couldn't lightning be pulled from the clouds even if no storm is going on? 

Honestly, these kinds of questions are the point where my intuition fails me and I have to go 'we'll have to wait until somebody in-universe tries it and tells us what happens'. Like, do Rosharans consider static electricity to be close enough to lightning that a Lightningspren could affect both? Maybe, maybe not! I would consider one to be a scaled-down version of the other, so if it was going off of my cognition, that would work; but I don't know if Rosharan scholars have made that connection, or if that perception has affected that general populace enough to make the two cognitively close.

Although I will say that pulling lightning from a cloud without a storm strikes me as something that would require the Fabrial to have a longer range than your average attractor seems to. 

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