Transportation in the Cosmere

[Calderis]

39 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

That being said, it leads me to believe that "Elsecallers" have a more Cognitive Realm focus to their transportation surge, due to their affinity with the cognitive realm in the Transformation Surge, while (if our 3-realm theory here is correct) Willshapers might have an easier time with teleportation due to the cohesion surge supporting a 3-realm shift rather than a 2-realm one, because, well... that's just cohesive.

I don't agree. By what we've been told, transition uses a perp... And a perp merges the realms. If someone wanted to go to the Spiritual through a perp they should be able to just as easily as the Cognitive (though I think it would be a very very bad idea).

For either order, Teleportation should just involve opening a second on linked to the first and stepping through.

9 minutes ago, The traveller said:

It is possible that Jasnah is just more proficient at Soulcasting and it is not an order-wide thing.. but it could be too. Elsecallers may be named such because they were the prime liaisons to CR and not because they were more proficient at transportation than willshapers... 

 

44 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Elsecaller would make plenty of sense as a name granted to people who are often traveling/bringing people to a strange realm full of orb-oceans and giant spren as well, so I'm not sure their name changes anything either way. 

While I definitely think that as far as the individuals go, proclivities will vary I think the orders whose names reflect what a surges use is called are going to be associated with that surge...

I think that with most orders, the ones that share a name with what their surge use is commonly called are going to be better at it, where others are more balanced. Most notably Lightweavers, Elsecallers and Dustbringers. But like, Edgedancers preferring abrasion on the whole with their reputation for for skimming around, and Willshapers with Cohesion, and Bondsmiths with (Spiritual) Adhesion. 

Windrunners, Stonewards, Skybreakers and Truthwatchers seem more balanced in their nomenclature.

Whjch leaves Transformation as the one surge that seems somewhat neglected by order association... Which I honestly think is a relic to tWoK prime. Originally, all of the orders were going to have the ability to soulcast but only to their associated essence. It being something associated with all radiants would have left it strongly tied to none of them. 

[Pathfinder]

So have a brief moment to post, and then when I can later today I will reply to everyone. This is the WoB stating that Radiants do tend to learn one surge first, and then a second.

 

Overlord Jebus

So I've noticed a pattern in the way that the Radiants learn their surges. They seem to learn their anti-clockwise surge before their clockwise surge?

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Overlord Jebus

Excellent, everyone thought I was a crazy person!

Brandon Sanderson

They do tend to-- Now, I'm gonna give you some behind the sausage stuff on that. That is partially for writing expediency reasons.

Overlord Jebus

How do you mean?

Brandon Sanderson

I designed that partially because I didn't want to overwhelm people with too many magic systems at once so I came up with a little bit of a pattern so that I could have a little bit of an in-world reason why we were slowing that down. It's not a hard fast rule, it's something that I've kept to in order to not overwhelm readers so it's more of form following function than the other way around.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Now to respond fully

 

17 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

This makes too much sense to be wrong. I think that's exactly what happened and the only if/and or buts are how expensive it is to accomplish, and if Jasnah is even going to be capable of pulling it off at all. It might be that her Transportation surge only allows for CR transfer while a Willshapers might allow for full teleportation.

Personally I still think they both can do teleportation, but interesting thoughts!

 

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

Oh I didn't see it that way! I thought that was a function of the gemstones but what you said makes much more sense with what we've seen. Thanks!

No problem!

 

12 hours ago, The traveller said:

I doubt that. It might be easier for a willshaper to work it out, it being their primary surge.. but i think both orders will be able to work it out.

I agree. 

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If there really are mini-perpendicularity involved, then cost is going to the main inhibition here which will prevent it from being Super OP.

I agree

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@Pathfinder thanks for the ideas on the primary vs secondary surges, I did not take into account how szeth influenced kaladin's view of his surges and nudged him towards and expertise in gravity whereas consciously he had used adhesion first, i like it. 

No problem!

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i dont think any fresh calculations are needed for oathgates to function between the 10 cities, but if a new city with a new oathgate were to be added in the future then we will need to do the calculations and program them accordingly anew. but i do not see that happening anytime in the near future, may be around mistborn era 3 time, Rosharans will have the tech to work it out.

I agree

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I also do not think that any calculations will be needed by the radiants if we are creating mini-perpendicularities to the SR and using Connection to the desired destination.   

Yeah I think the spren help shoulder that load. 

 

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Why do we think it will be their primary surge? Their name is literally "Willshaper" that screams Cohesion like lightweaver does Illumination.

So I covered this in the WoB I posted above. Honestly I do not know, but I also do not think we can go purely by the names to judge. What about truthwatchers as a name speaks of healing or even illumination? Dustbringers do not bring dust, they burn everything, and even then they prefer being called Releasers. How do skybreakers break the sky? Potentially in their use of division? But then why are dustbringers bringers of dust while skybreakers break the sky when they both have division? Shouldn't it be skybreakers and land breakers respectively? 

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I don't think there is a "primary" surge for the orders honestly. I mean... If it were always the counter-clockwise on the wheel, then Dalinar should have used the hell out of Tension and all we've seen from him so far is Adhesion. 

In my prior post I explained how I think that worked out that way. 

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I think every order is going to have people better at different aspects, and times where an order is ridiculously good at one or the other it should be a factor of their resonance, like the Lightweavers mnemonic device facilitating their illusions... 

I agree and disagree. I think some people are just going to lend better to one surge over another, but I think order on whole are going to lean more on a surge than the other, because they learn it first, and theoretically would gave better proficiency with the first one before gaining such proficiency with the second. 

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But if an order is going to be the better of the two at Transportation I'm going to give it to Elsecallers. It's literally the name of their order. 

Again, I do not personally feel we can use the names alone to judge fully what they can and cannot do. 

 

11 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

You're probably right, but I think if this Primary/Secondary thing is true then surges must operate differently for different orders in some capacity. We already know this is true for Bondsmiths as the stormfather outright clarifies it with Dalinar multiple times. I don't think Bondsmiths are a special case. I think it has something to do with the interactions between surges.

I think there are subtle differences in the way surges manifest between orders due to the interactions between the primary and secondary surges that particular order gets. So gravitation between windrunners and skybreakers are the same, but skybreakers tend to learn gravitation first and get a better handle on it with a currently unknown combination with division, while windrunners can alter the air pressure as they fly making their gravitation use seem different. For all we know skybreakers use division like a rocket somehow propelling them in straight lines far faster than windrunners, and the resultant explosive sound from doing so is what earned them the name. So I agree that the interaction between the surges are what is going to make individual orders "manifest" their powers differently. Not necessarily even the resonance, but just using the two powers in concert. 

 

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

And I very much think that Bondsmiths re a special case. The spren they bind, their limited number, their lack of shards. 

But as you have said elsewhere, the magic system should still obey a set of rules that should apply across all manifestations. So it should apply to all orders, not just one. 

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The only people we've seen so far who have any difference between their surge use and their neighboring orders are Dalinar, a Bondsmith, and Renarin... And Renarin has plenty of reasons to be different. 

We have seen Dalinar use adhesion in an additional way we have not see Kaladin use yet. Once Kaladin learned to use gravitation, he has largely ignored adhesion till the Fused claimed city. So I do not think we are at a point where we can conclude there is not further things Kaladin can do with adhesion that Dalinar could not, just like there may be further things Dalinar can do with Tension that a Stoneward could not. 

 

10 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I agree, I don't think "Primary surge" is actually a real thing. Some individuals may have an affinity for one or the other but I don't think it's order specific.

So although it may not be super exclusive, the WoB I just posted shows the primary surge learned first, and then the secondary surge is a very real thing. It is, as Brandon said, not a hard and fast rule, but it definitely is there, and definitely occurs often enough to be a phenomena. 

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I think that the way surges interact with eachother will cause variation. Not limiting one's abilities with a singular surge, but instead providing the surgebinder with methods of using both surges to create various effects that another order would be incapable of. (See: Shallan's "Physical Illusions" in the battle of Theylen Field, Dalinar's ability to fix broken objects, etc.)

I agree.

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That being said, it leads me to believe that "Elsecallers" have a more Cognitive Realm focus to their transportation surge, due to their affinity with the cognitive realm in the Transformation Surge, while (if our 3-realm theory here is correct) Willshapers might have an easier time with teleportation due to the cohesion surge supporting a 3-realm shift rather than a 2-realm one, because, well... that's just cohesive.

That's not to say Elsecallers will be incapable of instant teleportation if it is possible. Just that Willshapers might have an easier time wrapping 3 realms around their surge than an Elsecaller might.

as a side note: Elsecaller would make plenty of sense as a name granted to people who are often traveling/bringing people to a strange realm full of orb-oceans and giant spren as well, so I'm not sure their name changes anything either way. 

Interesting way of putting it. I agree. 

 

10 hours ago, The traveller said:

By primary surge, what i essentially believe is that the system of oaths is set in a way that 1 surge is mastered first and then as you progress beyond 3rd oath, you become more proficient at the second too. Although you had access to both surges from the beginning. As @Pathfinder has already pointed out that there are exceptions like Dalinar because he has seen kaladin do some adhesion or he has been told by kaladin what adhesion is. So, he knows about it and since his perception matters, as wobs suggest, so he is doing adhesion first. he can not do tension because he has not seen it, till that vision. Kaladin was doing adhesion untill he saw Szeth and then devoted most of his energies into learning gravity.

Thank you for putting it perfectly!

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 It is possible that Jasnah is just more proficient at Soulcasting and it is not an order-wide thing.. but it could be too. Elsecallers may be named such because they were the prime liaisons to CR and not because they were more proficient at transportation than willshapers... 

I agree.

 

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't agree. By what we've been told, transition uses a perp... And a perp merges the realms. If someone wanted to go to the Spiritual through a perp they should be able to just as easily as the Cognitive (though I think it would be a very very bad idea).

For either order, Teleportation should just involve opening a second on linked to the first and stepping through.

Both Elsecallers and Lightweavers soulcast the same way. They peer into the cognitive. They take a stone, and they convince it to change. Yet Shallan struggles convincing a stick, while Jasnah commands. When Shallan and Jasnah speak about the process of soulcasting while running through Thaylenah, Jasnah explains all the intricacies she learned from training with soulcasting. I would reference on how Shallan has to explain lightweaving to Renarin, but as we already said he is corrupted, so he doesn't count. However every single truthwatcher we have met knows regrowth first. Ym showed no lightweaving use. Stump showed no lightweaving use. Both were doing regrowth. Lift however did not start using regrowth. She was using abrasion when we met her, and just then she started to learn to use growth and then regrowth. Malata we see use division out of the box as it were, while Szeth is told division is dangerous and he needs more time before he trains with it. Personally I think there is plenty of information and evidence, including the WoB to support there being a primary surge learned first, lending towards greater proficiency, and then the second surge. There are some exceptions, but for the most part it seems to follow that pattern. So although not every elsecaller will be better at soulcasting than a lightweaver, to me it is certainly likely, and would be the way to bet. 

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While I definitely think that as far as the individuals go, proclivities will vary I think the orders whose names reflect what a surges use is called are going to be associated with that surge...

For the reasons I said above, I disagree.

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I think that with most orders, the ones that share a name with what their surge use is commonly called are going to be better at it, where others are more balanced. Most notably Lightweavers, Elsecallers and Dustbringers. But like, Edgedancers preferring abrasion on the whole with their reputation for for skimming around, and Willshapers with Cohesion, and Bondsmiths with (Spiritual) Adhesion. 

For the reasons above, I disagree. 

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Windrunners, Stonewards, Skybreakers and Truthwatchers seem more balanced in their nomenclature.

Whjch leaves Transformation as the one surge that seems somewhat neglected by order association... Which I honestly think is a relic to tWoK prime. Originally, all of the orders were going to have the ability to soulcast but only to their associated essence. It being something associated with all radiants would have left it strongly tied to none of them. 

For the reasons above, I disagree.

 

 

@Calderis    @Honorless    @The traveller     @Lunu’anaki 

Just tagging to show I updated and added a whole lot to my post

Edited November 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Aon Tia]

@Pathfinder well we agree on almost all points so that’s cool. 

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

This is the WoB stating that Radiants do tend to learn one surge first, and then a second.

And as the WoB says, its a rule that exists partially for meta reasons and is not a hard and fast rule. It will vary by order members. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I covered this in the WoB I posted above. Honestly I do not know, but I also do not think we can go purely by the names to judge. What about truthwatchers as a name speaks of healing or even illumination? Dustbringers do not bring dust, they burn everything, and even then they prefer being called Releasers. How do skybreakers break the sky? Potentially in their use of division? But then why are dustbringers bringers of dust while skybreakers break the sky when they both have division? Shouldn't it be skybreakers and land breakers respectively? 

Truthwatchers don't. Which is why I think they're more associated as an order with their activities than their surges.

Dustbringer don't just burn things. Division is the surge of destruction and decay. It breaks molecular bonds. Some things it burns, some things it rots. Some things, say if it were pure elemental iron, should just fall apart. Ash, or bits, or rot, it all ends up as dust.

Skybreakers can fly and destroy. Seems like a clear association with both. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But as you have said elsewhere, the magic system should still obey a set of rules that should apply across all manifestations. So it should apply to all orders, not just one. 

And I don't think them as an exception breaks anything I've said. The peen that they are merging with are of a completely different magnitude than the spren of the other orders. That should produce a qualitative difference to their bond that the other orders do not have. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

We have seen Dalinar use adhesion in an additional way we have not see Kaladin use yet.

And we have seen him use Adhesion in the same way as Kaladin and it was in a much larger scale than Kaladin has ever even attempted. He stuck the entire practice yard to the ground to prevent a brewing riot. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Once Kaladin learned to use gravitation, he has largely ignored adhesion till the Fused claimed city. So I do not think we are at a point where we can conclude there is not further things Kaladin can do with adhesion that Dalinar could not, just like there may be further things Dalinar can do with Tension that a Stoneward could not. 

First off, the very first surge use that Kaladin ever did was Gravitation. And he never stopped. He used a Reverse lashing to survive his very first bridge run. And he did it repeatedly which is why he always survived in the death row.

For the reason I stated above, u don't see any reason why Dalinar should be unable to mimic the things Kaladin could kern to do with Adhesion unless they are also incorporating aspects of Gravitation. I also think that Kaladin could learn to do things similar to Dalinar's uses of Adhesion, I believe his resonance already does this, but the scale of that is going to be smaller by nature. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Both Elsecallers and Lightweavers soulcast the same way. They peer into the cognitive. They take a stone, and they convince it to change. Yet Shallan struggles convincing a stick, while Jasnah commands. When Shallan and Jasnah speak about the process of soulcasting while running through Thaylenah, Jasnah explains all the intricacies she learned from training with soulcasting.

And Jasnah says herself that Soulcasting is a practiced art. One that she has been practicing for literal years. One that shallan has done once on accident. Once intentionally. And failed once, after which she has not even attempted it again. The fact that she succeeded the first attempt is more surprising to me than her failure with the stick. I don't think this indicates any difference in their surge use. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

every single truthwatcher we have met knows regrowth first. Ym showed no lightweaving use. Stump showed no lightweaving use. Both were doing regrowth.

Yes. And when fleeing Nale, Ym's own spren suggests using light to try and help him. Three is not exactly a huge sample size here, assuming Renarin can be counted. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Lift however did not start using regrowth. She was using abrasion when we met her, and just then she started to learn to use growth and then regrowth

While she was still a first oath Radiant. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Malata we see use division out of the box as it were, while Szeth is told division is dangerous and he needs more time before he trains with it.

And Skybreakers seem to be an oddity here in that their division is quite literally gated... Which only truly makes sense if looked at in context of how their order functions and if it is an imposed rule that they follow. 

And again, in all of this, looking at the WoB that bases the idea, it appears to be more a meta thing than it does an actual rule. I'm not saying that it is not an actual tendency, because there is definitely something there but I think it's far more to do with the type of people that the spren seek to bond. With the effect that the attributes that the order as they pertain to how a person is likely to use their abilities. 

 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And as the WoB says, its a rule that exists partially for meta reasons and is not a hard and fast rule. It will vary by order members. 

It is not a hard and fast rule, but it is one that though exists originally for meta reasons, does in fact exist in world. Basically to clarify:

 

1. A trend is noticed in the book. Author comments it was intentional for meta reasons, but the mechanics in the world itself are unaffected. 

2. A trend is noticed in the book. Author comments it was intentional for meta reasons, but the mechanics in the world are affected. 

 

Per the WoB, I believe it is number 2. It started for writing reasons, but it is an actual mechanic in the world. 

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Truthwatchers don't. Which is why I think they're more associated as an order with their activities than their surges.

See this is why I lean towards the WoB than the names. With the primary secondary surge, we can predict what surge the order will most likely use first. Going by names I feel is a roll of the dice. You can attempt to validate your interpretations with the names for the orders we have already seen their surges manifest, but not with the ones that have not yet. The names do not adequately describe the surge users if you have to jump through hoops to get them all to work. 

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Dustbringer don't just burn things. Division is the surge of destruction and decay. It breaks molecular bonds. Some things it burns, some things it rots. Some things, say if it were pure elemental iron, should just fall apart. Ash, or bits, or rot, it all ends up as dust.

Yet dustbringers are widely known for them burning things, being able to even set fire to rock. If the names are meant to speak to the surges used, then I do not believe it reliably fits. 

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Skybreakers can fly and destroy. Seems like a clear association with both. 

So when they use the surge of division, the sky gets broken? I know I am using hyperbole, but in this case I kind of have to to illustrate the point. You are using information you have, to self confirm your viewpoint, and then says it applies across the board, when it does not. 

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And I don't think them as an exception breaks anything I've said. The peen that they are merging with are of a completely different magnitude than the spren of the other orders. That should produce a qualitative difference to their bond that the other orders do not have. 

But if the abilities are sourced from the spren, and the only fundamental difference between bondsmith spren and other order spren (not counting cognitive shadow stormfather) is the "size" or "strength", then the only effect should be how powerful the surges are. Just like a lerasium mistborn is "stronger" than a natural born mistborn, so too with the spren. Yet you are saying because of the magnitude of the spren, it would make sense that the surges would work different only for bondsmiths, and no other radiant. I disagree with that logic. 

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And we have seen him use Adhesion in the same way as Kaladin and it was in a much larger scale than Kaladin has ever even attempted. He stuck the entire practice yard to the ground to prevent a brewing riot. 

But Dalinar has not used adhesion to shape the wind, and Kaladin has not used adhesion to speak other languages. 

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First off, the very first surge use that Kaladin ever did was Gravitation. And he never stopped. He used a Reverse lashing to survive his very first bridge run. And he did it repeatedly which is why he always survived in the death row.

He did stop, because he did not run every single bridge run at the front. When he was training with the log to get bridge 4 out, that was stormlight giving him greater endurance and healing. His first conscious use of the surge was when he stuck the rocks to the walls and climbed up the side of the chasm. It was after that, that he ran into Szeth and decided to emulate him. Dalinar's armor glowed when a chasmfiend in Way of Kings brought its claw down to kill Elhokar. I theorize that was tension keeping the armor from breaking. Dalinar then used adhesion to stick the chair to the wall, while commenting on how he saw Kaladin doing it. Then there was touching for language (adhesion), and restoring the temple (tension). Language was by accident, temple was intentional. I will continue the explanation in response to your other replies

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For the reason I stated above, u don't see any reason why Dalinar should be unable to mimic the things Kaladin could kern to do with Adhesion unless they are also incorporating aspects of Gravitation. I also think that Kaladin could learn to do things similar to Dalinar's uses of Adhesion, I believe his resonance already does this, but the scale of that is going to be smaller by nature. 

I am saying that there are three things

 

1. slight differences in the surge from order to order

2. differences arising from the combination of surges

3. resonances that produce an entirely new third power

 

At the base Kaladin and Dalinar adhesion works the same. They both can stick things to other things. Further proficiency, use, and oath level leads Kaladin to be able to "shape" the wind, while Dalinar understands any language of the person he touches. Kaladin as a windrunner can use adhesion to potentially deal with wind resistance while using gravitation, or even manipulate pressure later on to get better turns and maneuverability from gravitation (this portion is conjecture) when compared to a skybreaker. Kaladin as a windrunner has the resonance of strength of squires which is an entirely unique third power. That is how I see things, and personally I think it fits. 

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And Jasnah says herself that Soulcasting is a practiced art. One that she has been practicing for literal years. One that shallan has done once on accident. Once intentionally. And failed once, after which she has not even attempted it again. The fact that she succeeded the first attempt is more surprising to me than her failure with the stick. I don't think this indicates any difference in their surge use. 

Also based on that WoB, it makes sense because Jasnah would more than likely practice transformation first. Shallan would more than likely practice illumination first. We see a regressed Shallan try transformation first because of the circumstances in her life, but remove all information on the individuals, and we can likely guess Shallan probably used illumination first. In fact is it not mentioned when she has brief moments of remembering her childhood, she recalls light, and making illusions? So to clarify this further

 

1. Orders tend to learn one surge first, and then the second surge second

2. Because they tend to learn one surge first, they gain greater practice and ability with said surge

3. Some radiants, due to outside circumstances, occasionally learn surges out of order

4. Some radiants, learning surges out of order due to outside circumstances does not negate the reality that by order, 9 times out of 10, the radiant is going to learn a certain surge first over the other. 

 

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Yes. And when fleeing Nale, Ym's own spren suggests using light to try and help him. Three is not exactly a huge sample size here, assuming Renarin can be counted. 

Ym still was using regrowth first, and we do not know what level of oath he was, as well as we already acknowledged that use of both surges are possible, just that the preference of learning would lend towards one first over the other. But three is not the sample size. The sample size is:

Dalinar (1 against, though I explained why I think this still applies)

Kaladin (1 against, though I explained why I think this still applies)

Shallan (1 for)

Ym (1 for)

Stump (1 for)

Lift (1 for)

Szeth (1 for)

Malata (1 for)

Lopen (1 for)

Jasnah (1 for)

 

So from a sample size of 10, 2 were against versus the 8 for. That is an 80 percent accuracy rating backed up by a WoB. 

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While she was still a first oath Radiant. 

We already established (in my opinion) that the radiants have access to both surges. Just they tend to learn one over the other first. Lift learned abrasion first, which keeps in line with this entire thing stated in the WoB. Then she learned progression. 

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And Skybreakers seem to be an oddity here in that their division is quite literally gated... Which only truly makes sense if looked at in context of how their order functions and if it is an imposed rule that they follow. 

Division is not literally gated by the skybreakers. Szeth could have used it if he so chose right then and there. All Nale said was it was dangerous, so he would oversee Szeth's training in it personally. This does nothing to dispute what I said

 

oathbringer page 1198

"I will visit you again to oversee your training in your second art, the Surge of Dvision. You may access that now, but take care. It is dangerous. 

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And again, in all of this, looking at the WoB that bases the idea, it appears to be more a meta thing than it does an actual rule. I'm not saying that it is not an actual tendency, because there is definitely something there but I think it's far more to do with the type of people that the spren seek to bond. With the effect that the attributes that the order as they pertain to how a person is likely to use their abilities. 

I disagree. it is a meta thing that is a mechanic in world that is for the most part reliable. There are exceptions, but that does not change the trend. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Aon Tia]

May be we should have started a different thread for primary and secondary surges for different orders.. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

May be we should have started a different thread for primary and secondary surges for different orders.. 

Seems to be the story of my life lol

[Lunu’anaki]

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

May be we should have started a different thread for primary and secondary surges for different orders.. 

Lol. I’m starting to think it’s too late for that 

I still think this argument lends itself to transportation in terms of its use by surgebinders... because it’s relevant concerning the possibility of having differences between the orders who can use it.

 

Are Jasnah, Oathgates and perpendicularities our only solid examples of the use of transportation as a surge? 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Are Jasnah, Oathgates and perpendicularities our only solid examples of the use of transportation as a surge? 

Canonically yes. 

Not yet Canon we also have the migration from Ashyn. 

[Lunu’anaki]

52 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Canonically yes. 

Not yet Canon we also have the migration from Ashyn.  

thanks!
 

I wonder how surges relate to the metallic arts, if at all. If so then maybe ferochemical speed plays into it somehow but that’s the only other thing I can think of... besides Selish teleportation and perhaps Soul/Cognitive transport upon death.

[Aon Tia]

How do you guys reckon Scadrial FTL travel going to work. Any ideas. There is a lot of belief that they are the closest to figuring it out but any ideas? How it is going to work with metallic arts?

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, The traveller said:

How do you guys reckon Scadrial FTL travel going to work. Any ideas. There is a lot of belief that they are the closest to figuring it out but any ideas? How it is going to work with metallic arts?

Relevant WoBs.

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General Twitter 2011 (Nov. 14, 2011)
#5 Nov. 14, 2011 Share Copy

 

 

ericpeters

You mentioned friday night in Seattle Allomacy has “FTL” built into it, any more hints you can share on how that would work

Brandon Sanderson

It involves where the lost energy from thermodynamic issues goes in certain Allomantic interactions

 

#allomantic ftl

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FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)
#21 Share Copy

 

 

Steeldancer (paraphrased)

Have you ever heard of the Alcubierre Drive? 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, I know about the Alcubierre drive. 

Steeldancer (paraphrased)

So, if we took two speed bubbles--mechanized, because Allomancers aren't powerful enough to pull it off--could we create a functioning Alcubierre drive?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You are theorizing in the right direction. 

 

#allomantic ftl #mechanical metallic arts

 

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Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)
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Necarion

One other speed bubble question. Is the speed of light the same inside and outside a speed bubble?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes. The speed of light is the same. Good question, you're trying to figure out the FTL.

Necarion

Also, it would eliminate the redshift if the speed of light…

Brandon Sanderson

If the speed of light were similar. That's one thing we considered, but it felt too unintuitive, plus it's just not how I imagined things working. So, no it is not, but that's a good question. It is something we considered.

 

[Aon Tia]

@Karger Can you elaborate on these a little....

[Calderis]

@Pathfinder I'll agree to disagree here.

It's a negligibke difference in my mind anyway, because as I said, I do think, do to the attributes and the type of people the spren bond that the prevalence towards one surge causing the association is a real thing, it's just not a rule. 

I think either interpretation fits the WoB in question, because they're both in world reasons with merit. 

[Lunu’anaki]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Relevant WoBs.

 

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

@Karger Can you elaborate on these a little....

 

I'm not exactly sure I follow the Alcubierre Drive WoB either... 

I checked out the Wiki article of the Drive found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

But I think there is something I'm missing. How would a speed bubble warp space in the manner suggested by this drive?

[Aon Tia]

4 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I'm not exactly sure I follow the Alcubierre Drive WoB either... 

I checked out the Wiki article of the Drive found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

But I think there is something I'm missing. How would a speed bubble warp space in the manner suggested by this drive?

Lol.. I did the same. checked the same article before asking for elaboration... 

but brandon seems to agree that Speed bubble will have something to do with FTL.. I am most curious..

[Lunu’anaki]

1 minute ago, The traveller said:

Lol.. I did the same. checked the same article before asking for elaboration... 

but brandon seems to agree that Speed bubble will have something to do with FTL.. I am most curious..

I feel like... hmmm

What would happen if you opened a speed bubble inside of another speed bubble?

[Calderis]

By compressing space (or time, because they are effectively the same thing) in front of the vehicle, and expanding it behind, you essentially create a wave in spacetime that the vehicle can ride to move at FTL speeds without actually moving FTL. You need to create this "wave" though, because if you just have a Bendalloy bubble that moves with the ship... It will arrive super fast to everyone outside the bubble... But to those inside, the full trip would have happened. The trick is finding a way to ride the wave and not be subject to the effects of the spacetime manipulation itself. 

Basically, light in a speed bubble moves like normal light... But by necessity, that means it is accelerated or decelerate in the same manner as the time expansion (which is why it's important that bubbles negate red/blue shift, or else they would constantly kill everyone). 

2 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I feel like... hmmm

What would happen if you opened a speed bubble inside of another speed bubble?

They multiply each other. A cadmium and Bendalloy bubble if identical strength will negate each other, and a bubble of the same type amplifies. Which is why stacked cadmium bubbles would be literal time travel unto the future... On a one way trip. 

[Lunu’anaki]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

By compressing space (or time, because they are effectively the same thing) in front of the vehicle, and expanding it behind, you essentially create a wave in spacetime that the vehicle can ride to move at FTL speeds without actually moving FTL. You need to create this "wave" though, because if you just have a Bendalloy bubble that moves with the ship... It will arrive super fast to everyone outside the bubble... But to those inside, the full trip would have happened. The trick is finding a way to ride the wave and not be subject to the effects of the spacetime manipulation itself. 

Basically, light in a speed bubble moves like normal light... But by necessity, that means it is accelerated or decelerate in the same manner as the time expansion (which is why it's important that bubbles negate red/blue shift, or else they would constantly kill everyone). 

 

Beautiful. Thank you. My 2AM brain wasn't clever enough to catch on to the whole Time-is-Space thing without that push. 

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

They multiply each other. A cadmium and Bendalloy bubble if identical strength will negate each other, and a bubble of the same type amplifies. Which is why stacked cadmium bubbles would be literal time travel unto the future... On a one way trip. 

Ahhhhh. Super off topic but I've heard that Hoid experiences large gaps in time where he "doesn't remember anything"... I wonder....

[Karger]

9 hours ago, The traveller said:

Can you elaborate on these a little....

The WoBs indicate that the metallic arts do include a method for FTL travel when used effectively.  The Alcubierre drive is a theoretical FTL engine that works like the following.  Think of space-time like a conveyor belt.  We all normally run up and down on the conveyor belt without noticing it move.  It is forbidden to run faster then the speed of light on the belt itself but no such law forbids the belt from moving. 

[Pathfinder]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder I'll agree to disagree here.

It's a negligibke difference in my mind anyway, because as I said, I do think, do to the attributes and the type of people the spren bond that the prevalence towards one surge causing the association is a real thing, it's just not a rule. 

I think either interpretation fits the WoB in question, because they're both in world reasons with merit. 

Agree to disagree. 

[Isilel]

On 5.11.2019 at 7:32 AM, Lunu’anaki said:

I agree, I don't think "Primary surge" is actually a real thing. Some individuals may have an affinity for one or the other but I don't think it's order specific.

Late to the party, but here are my 2 clearchips : I think that for the people who have have bonded a spren of their own, which surge they learn first and are ultimately  better at (which is not the same thing) is influenced as much or more by their personality and circumstances as by their Order. For instance, Jasnah was concealing her powers* and for a somewhat public person like her a rookie mistake when experimenting with Transportation couldn't have been as easily explained and obfuscated as the one involving Soulcasting, once she had her soulcaster prop. She also hasn't "mastered" Soulcasting despite probably being at her 4th Oath - her soulcasting of food still leaves much to be desired. Lift was a child thief, so of course the Friction surge was more immediately useful to her - OTOH, she hasn't "mastered" it either, far from it, as demonstrated at the Battle of Thaylenah, while she was able to cure a mortal wound/return a person who just died to life pretty much right off the bat. She also used Growth at her 1st Oath and Regrowth at her 2nd, so. Kaladin was using Gravitation even before his 1st Oath - and I think that the fact that he was using it subconsciously only empathises the fact that he was very much Gravitation-attuned from the start. After all, both Ym and Stump also started to use Regrowth subconsciously - and as they were both into charity works, it is easy to see that they needed it more than Illumination. etc. I am also fairly sure that if Ehlokar had lived, _he_ would have been better at Transformation than Lightweaving. He even said to Shallan something along the lines that "a good ? transforms himself" before setting out for the Palace.

However! I think that "the Primary surge" does apply to the Radiant squires, in that all squires  only have access to  one Surge of their Order, with the Windrunner ones being the exception due to the "Strength of the Squires" Resonance. Which would be consistent with both Szeth's experiences in OB and the WoB provided by  @Pathfinder.

*Which is why I also expect that Venli is going to use Cohesion rather than Transportation early on despite being a Willshaper, as she is operating undercover.

As to the Bondsmiths, I agree with @Calderis that they are a special case. In fact, didn't the Stormfather say as much in OB? IMHO, in exchange for their small numbers, lack of shardblades and IMHO, but yet unconfirmed, lack of squires, as well as a somewhat lackluster combination of surges, they get a really souped-up Resonance or possibly even more than one. "Yours is the power of Connection", etc.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Isilel

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Late to the party, but here are my 2 clearchips : I think that for the people who have have bonded a spren of their own, which surge they learn first and are ultimately  better at (which is not the same thing) is influenced as much or more by their personality and circumstances as by their Order. For instance, Jasnah was concealing her powers* and for a somewhat public person like her a rookie mistake when experimenting with Transportation couldn't have been as easily explained and obfuscated as the one involving Soulcasting, once she had her soulcaster prop. She also hasn't "mastered" Soulcasting despite probably being at her 4th Oath - her soulcasting of food still leaves much to be desired. Lift was a child thief, so of course the Friction surge was more immediately useful to her - OTOH, she hasn't "mastered" it either, far from it, as demonstrated at the Battle of Thaylenah, while she was able to cure a mortal wound/return a person who just died to life pretty much right off the bat. She also used Growth at her 1st Oath and Regrowth at her 2nd, so. Kaladin was using Gravitation even before his 1st Oath - and I think that the fact that he was using it subconsciously only empathises the fact that he was very much Gravitation-attuned from the start. After all, both Ym and Stump also started to use Regrowth subconsciously - and as they were both into charity works, it is easy to see that they needed it more than Illumination. etc. I am also fairly sure that if Ehlokar had lived, _he_ would have been better at Transformation than Lightweaving. He even said to Shallan something along the lines that "a good ? transforms himself" before setting out for the Palace.

However! I think that "the Primary surge" does apply to the Radiant squires, in that all squires  only have access to  one Surge of their Order, with the Windrunner ones being the exception due to the "Strength of the Squires" Resonance. Which would be consistent with both Szeth's experiences in OB and the WoB provided by  @Pathfinder.

*Which is why I also expect that Venli is going to use Cohesion rather than Transportation early on despite being a Willshaper, as she is operating undercover.

As to the Bondsmiths, I agree with @Calderis that they are a special case. In fact, didn't the Stormfather say as much in OB? IMHO, in exchange for their small numbers, lack of shardblades and IMHO, but yet unconfirmed, lack of squires, as well as a somewhat lackluster combination of surges, they get a really souped-up Resonance or possibly even more than one. "Yours is the power of Connection", etc.

I guess what it comes down to is waiting and seeing what is the surge the coming radiants will be using first. 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I guess what it comes down to is waiting and seeing what is the surge the coming radiants will be using first. 

And that's where I disagree. Like I said, I do think there's a real in world leaning towards one surge or the other that leads to an association. 

But I don't think it's going to be universal in the order as it's not a "hard and fast" rule. And when you add in the meta reasoning for it I think we're very very likely to see that trend continue. 

But I don't think that means your not going to see radiants who work the opposite. Because it's not a rule. It's a leaning. 

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And that's where I disagree. Like I said, I do think there's a real in world leaning towards one surge or the other that leads to an association. 

But I don't think it's going to be universal in the order as it's not a "hard and fast" rule. And when you add in the meta reasoning for it I think we're very very likely to see that trend continue. 

But I don't think that means your not going to see radiants who work the opposite. Because it's not a rule. It's a leaning. 

I think we are getting bogged down with words and semantics. I never said nor intended to say it will always 100 percent go that way. I explained that factors happening around the radiant may affect it. You (unless I misunderstand in which case I apologize), are stating its entirely individualistic, and since the spren of an order tend to go towards certain people, those people tend to be the types to lend towards one surge over the other. I believe neither of us are stating it is rigid and will occur 100 percent of the time. We just seem to disagree regarding the "source". Hopefully this will clarify things further

 

My take: Line up 20 radiants from a random distribution of orders. Of those 20, based on what order they belong to, I can reasonably guess what was the first surge the focused on and are better at. There is a chance I will be wrong, as some may have emulated another person from a different order first, or through circumstances in their life outside their control, they learned another surge over the other. 

 

Your take: Line up 20 radiants from a random distribution of orders. Of those 20, based on what order they belong to, you think there may be a trend based on their order, because of the type of person that tends to join it. Personal preference accounts for any that contradict that trend. 

 

Did I adequately illustrate the difference?