Merlin

Kaladin's Love Life

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Well the Windspren are described as cousins to the Honorspren. Could be seen as leaving your bf with your sister, but being jealous when he hangs out with your friend's sister.

The reason I think we'd see jealousy is a function of abandonment. Syl definitely hasn't forgotten that Kaladin almost abandoned his oaths, so it makes sense for her to fear his leaving her. Having another female persona in the mix would mean his attention is split.

It's really common with children (jealous or even hateful of the new kid.

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I think I would be hard to write a relationship between Tarah and Kaladin because to me it would seem like Tarah is a gold digger (or sphere digger) because she was the one that broke off their relationship and if she did go back to Kal it would feel to me like she would just want to be with him because he's a lighteyes and a KR. I also think she is not right for Kaladin.

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5 hours ago, Config2 said:

@Winds Alight and @The Traveler I actually think that sex is very important part of any relationship

Absolutely not. A relationship can be anything, not just romantic or sexual.

I believe this tweet fits quite well in here:

Go for it, fanfic writers! :PB)(Oh rust I'm a fanfic writer)

Edited by Winds Alight
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On 10/8/2019 at 0:05 AM, The traveller said:

I actually think that adolin and shallan are good, their romance makes sense and it is done well enough. I liked their first meeting and their later ones. At first he felt that she is refreshing and then she ropes him in on her plans and he shares his plans and difficulties regarding furling with her. I see that as a good base for a relationship. She obviously adores him for she defends adolin to kaladin and berates him for making fun of adolin and shows him that adolin is totally likeable and u are the human version of dark clouds

the moment kal and shallan fell into the chasm together, I was like no Sanderson don’t go there! Adolin and shallan have a good thing going and don’t mess it up and I am glad really glad he did not. 

Even worse would have been if it would have messed up kaladin and adolin ‘s budding friendship 

i think it was written well and there was no unnecessary anguish here which is how things play out many times in real life

I just never felt much chemistry between Shallan and Adolin - they always felt like friends more than anything.  The scenes you talk about where she defends Adolin to Kaladin are more like defending herself and her fellow Lighteyes to Kaladin and trying to get Kaladin to realize he's got this huge chip on his shoulder toward the lighteyes that blinds him to people who are actually good.  Shallan thinks Adolin isn't smart enough to keep up with her intellectually - this is shown in multiple scenes and she has this "don't pick on the poor dumb kid" attitude about it where she defends him but also insults/belittles him at the same time.  The point I'm getting at is that I think Sanderson intended to show love growing between Shallan and Adolin, but there are a lot of people who just never felt it.  Their relationship felt very rote and by the book.  The only thing that felt like either of them had strong feelings for each other was Adolin's reaction at the end of OB.  I'm not saying their relationship is unrealistic exactly, actually it's probably the most like your average real life romance, but it's not shown in depth and it doesn't make you feel the emotions of either character for each other.

I don't disagree that I didn't really want a love triangle in SA, but once it happened I wanted it to be done well.  At that point Adolin/Shallan was standard mediocre but passable Sanderson romance, so I was willing to see it shaken up if done well.  Kaladin's arc really made you feel his emotions toward Shallan.  Throughout WoR he starts to notice her, he gets jealous of her and Adolin when he's assigned to be their guard for the day (though he tell himself it's grumpiness and classism), he has the Chasm scene where he realizes she's a real person who's faced just as much hardship as he has, then he realizes at the end of WoR that he is interested in her but has no opportunity to ever have a relationship with her.  Then in OB, Syl convinces him he needs to acknowledge his feelings and take his shot, which fails before he even does it.  It's interesting and done really well with subtle writing.  The unrequited love story is always the one that speaks to me the most personally though.  Then, Sanderson comes in and retcons the whole thing with the "it was just Lightweaver Magic" thing.  That wasn't "no unnecessary anguish" that was "no necessary anguish."  The guy has spent months thinking about this girl and he just walks away, no hard feelings?  If Sanderson wanted to go the "no harm no foul" type route, he should have been walking it back all the way through OB instead of ratcheting up Kaladin's emotions toward Shallan throughout the book, then cutting them all off cold.

On 10/8/2019 at 8:41 PM, ChickenLiberty said:

Yikes. I see a whole lot of discussion about how a plot point was "resolved." Luckily, it wasn't resolved. There was some sort of end-of-book resolution to it because Oathbringer was getting too long, but it's important to remember that we've got 2 more 1000+ page books for Kaladin to deal with how that resolution played out. (Hopefully most of that resolution will be in the first portion of SA4, but who knows.)

It really was resolved.  Here is the quote from OB:  "He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn't be bitter.  He didn't feel resignation either.  Instead he felt ... agreement?"  This is Brandon Sanderson speaking through Kaladin and saying it's done and over.  Kaladin has thought in his own mind that he isn't upset and bitter about Shallan and Adolin getting together, he isn't even resigned to the fact that he was the losing ship, he in his own mind feels that those two should have been together and has no sadness or negative feelings about it.  The next few paragraphs then go into the Lightweaver magic retcon (Kaladin never really had feelings for her, he was just confused by her lightweaver magic).  It's very doubtful that a Kaladin/Shallan romance plot ever returns.  If it does, it would have to be Shallan to Kaladin rather than Kaladin to Shallan, which seems super unlikely since Shallan never expressed any serious interest.  I don't even think I would want it to return, other than Kaladin having a realistic and short "getting over it" phase which I've already mentioned won't happen because he's already over it.

On 10/8/2019 at 8:05 AM, Use the Falchion said:

I'm on the Jasnadin ship, but I'd happy accept Tarah, Rysn, or Syl. Laral would be acceptable, but less so at the moment. 

For Skyward it was more of a crush that might lead into more (Sanderson mentioned that he originally tried to make it a romance and it just didn't work). And I think the slow-burn approach is perfect, especially for young adults and teens. It actually starts with Bim, where Spensa realizes that people can have a romantic interest with her. Then respect for Jerkface, and soon romantic feelings. Also calling Book 1 Starsight really freaked me out for while; I thought y'all had read it early or something!

Interesting, didn't know that.  Exactly my feelings on Skyward.  Yeah, sorry for the mixup on the book title not sure where that came from!  

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20 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

Absolutely not. A relationship can be anything, not just romantic or sexual.

My apologies, I think I am conflating two words.

Relationship to me in this context refers to a romantic or intimate relationship, where you seem to be referring to a connection (any connection) between two people (friendships, familial bonds, work acquaintance all included).

So to edit my quote a little:

I believe physical intimacy is an important part of any romantic relationship (excluding a minority who are asexual).

Sorry for the confusion. What I was trying to get across is that IF there was a romantic relationship between a spren and a human, the fact that you can go to shadesmar and hold their hand is essential (and by that measure, enables the pairing in the first place).

I also don't think that every relationship invariably leads towards sexual relations, but they usually get closer. I.e. if you spend enough time with someone you will eventually have a romantic moment (that moment may or may not lead to persistent romantic feelings). The time frame for this happening could be years or decades, and I don't recommend waiting around for it. IF there is some chemistry between people (or on one side) already, then you have the Dobler/Dahmer effect, where the probability of a romantic moment increases dramatically. 

That last bit is a straying a little from Kaladin, or the ethics of a spren/human relationship. The bigger thing for me is whether you want to sexualize Syl herself; she is analogous to a child half the time, and while she grows in self awareness the longer they are together, she lacks the actual life experiences that would give her perspective to enter into a romantic pairing with an adult Kaladin. I found similar faults in the relationship between Susebron and Siri. He is both about 60 years older than her, the equivalent of a 12-year-old. The only reason I can't find a moral issue with it is that he is essentially a prodigy, and develops the social skills and worldview required for a romantic pairing extremely quickly (as well as Siri herself being just as clueless). I'm not sure I could get past that for Syl; unless she recovers all her previous memories (she sounds like she is at least 20 years old equivalent when she makes her original bond, so if she got that back she'd be more of an equal to Kaladin).

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Is a relationship with a ghost spren, even physically possible?

Edited by Aragorn
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13 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Some are assuming that in CR it can work

Well... A romantic relationship is probably possible, but a sexual one is doubtful. 

The way they look is their body. There's a part that mentions that to change the way they look, to "change clothes," takes Investiture... 

So I doubt they are equipped for a physical relationship.

Edit looking for the particular part but notably already found this. 

Quote

The sailor jogged off, and then returned a short time later with the captain: a tall, imperious-looking honorspren named Notum. He glowed a soft blue-white, and wore an outdated—but sharp—naval uniform, which was part of his substance.

"part of his substance" the clothing is a part of him. 

Edited by Calderis
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@Calderis I totally agree with you. I believe that it will not work in CR either. And this ship exists solely because honor spren almost look like humans in CR. No one would think that a relationship with cryptics or ashspren or cultivation spren is possible.

Besides I feel their relationship via nahel bond is much more intimate as it is, than a romantic or sexual relationship. 

Is it not that their spiritual aspect are bound and they are essentially one?

Edited by The traveller
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12 minutes ago, The traveller said:

@Calderis I totally agree with you. I believe that it will not work in CR either. And this ship exists solely because honor spren almost look like humans in CR. No one would think that a relationship with cryptics or ashspren or cultivation spren is possible.

Besides I feel their relationship via nahel bond is much more intimate as it is, than a romantic or sexual relationship. 

Is it not that their spiritual aspect are bound and they are essentially one?

I have no issue with a platonic relationship between Radiant and their spren, or a romantic relationship between a human and a spren in the Cognitive... 

But I do have a very real issue with the idea of a romantic relationship between a bonded spren and their Radiant because of the inherent power dynamic in which the very life of the spren relies on their bondmate. 

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I always got the impression that Shallan wasn't attracted to Kaladin, Veil was.  Veil isn't a part of Shallan's subconscious, she's a fake person with her own wants, desires, and interests.  It's like playing a part in a play.  Shallan created her so she could do the things Shallan would never feel comfortable doing, but Veil would.  Same with Radiant, who also likes Kaladin.  Shallan wanted to be competent at sword fighting, but absolutely hated her sword, so she created someone to do it for her.  Radiant isn't a part of Shallan's subconscious, either.  She's a fake person with her own wants and desires.  It's the same as when I write a character in a book.  They aren't a part of my subconscious.  They're fake people that I made up.  I give them their own wants and desires and fears, and I let them play.  Shallan does that, too, every time she creates a false persona.  

 

She just did it so well that she got lost in it, and allowed them to have too much control over her.  She began to easily slip in to their personas, and therefore would react the way they react, do the things they would do, rather than herself.  In essence, Veil and Radiant are her playing pretend.  She just forgot which one was pretend, and which one was real.

 

As for Shallan and Adolin, I always felt he was the one Shallan actually wanted.  She can flirt with him.  They can laugh together.  They have fun.  Of course it started out, and continued, as a political marriage.  It WAS a political marriage.  But there's nothing wrong with that.  

 

People today don't understand that Love is not a feeling.  Love is not something you feel.  Feelings are fickle.  Feelings change moment by moment.  Infatuation is a feeling.  Desire is a feeling.  But love is not a feeling.  Ask Doctor Who, when the solder guy becomes a Cyberman.  Love isn't a feeling.  It is a promise.  It is thinking about the other rather than one's self.  What people call love in America today is selfish.  I want that person.  I need that person.  I won't be complete without that person.  It's all about me.  But that isn't love. 90% of all marriages in the world were arranged, many times without the spouses ever having met each other before the wedding day.  And yet they loved each other.  It was a giving, with no thought of taking.  That is love.  And while many people think "You can't help who you fall in love with", I disagree vehemently.  I decided to love my wife.  I was falling for her.  I was feeling the desire and the infatuation.  But I'd felt that before.  I knew what type of person those other girls were, and I knew the type of woman my future wife was.  And I decided to love her.  When I married her, I decided she would be the one, regardless of feeling.  Regardless of how much she may drive me crazy in the future.  Regardless of whether or not she keeps her side of the promise, I will keep mine, because I decided.  And I still feel those feelings, and those desires, and I have even through the hard times.  Because I don't base my thoughts about her based on my feelings of the moment, but on the conscious decision that I made.  I didn't bond myself to her in haste.  I did it deliberately.  

 

While Shallan was attracted to Kaladin, decided she loved Adolin.  There's nothing wrong with that.  And it does not, in any way, lesson the love she and he will have.  As for how the romance was written, I didn't find anything wrong with it.  I was rooting for it, because I knew they would be good together and it helps everyone involved.  I actually hate, with a passion, love triangles.  They're over done.  I don't care about them.  I hate them.  I want them to go away.  I'm glad they ended it in OB.  Perhaps Kaladin was a little abrupt, ending it as he did.  But I was glad.  Because I don't have to deal with that anymore.  He can move on.

 

I still think he'll get with Jasnah.  I think, of all the men we've seen, he's the only one who'll stand up to her face and throw witty barbs right back at her, and won't be intimidated by her sheer force of will.  And he would never hurt her the way she has obviously been hurt in the past.  

 

Just my thoughts.  

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6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I still think he'll get with Jasnah.  I think, of all the men we've seen, he's the only one who'll stand up to her face and throw witty barbs right back at her, and won't be intimidated by her sheer force of will.  And he would never hurt her the way she has obviously been hurt in the past.  

That is true. He will not be intimidated by Jasnah and he will not make a fool of himself either. I don’t mind the two of them together. But I doubt this is where it is going...
Agree also with you about Adolin and shallan. Besides it is not your typical arrange marriage either. They got to know each other, spend time with each other and then they decided they want it. So I think it will work out for them.

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On 10/31/2019 at 4:54 PM, Tglassy said:

I always got the impression that Shallan wasn't attracted to Kaladin, Veil was.  Veil isn't a part of Shallan's subconscious, she's a fake person with her own wants, desires, and interests.  It's like playing a part in a play.  Shallan created her so she could do the things Shallan would never feel comfortable doing, but Veil would.  Same with Radiant, who also likes Kaladin.  Shallan wanted to be competent at sword fighting, but absolutely hated her sword, so she created someone to do it for her.  Radiant isn't a part of Shallan's subconscious, either.  She's a fake person with her own wants and desires.  It's the same as when I write a character in a book.  They aren't a part of my subconscious.  They're fake people that I made up.  I give them their own wants and desires and fears, and I let them play.  Shallan does that, too, every time she creates a false persona.  

 

She just did it so well that she got lost in it, and allowed them to have too much control over her.  She began to easily slip in to their personas, and therefore would react the way they react, do the things they would do, rather than herself.  In essence, Veil and Radiant are her playing pretend.  She just forgot which one was pretend, and which one was real.

 

As for Shallan and Adolin, I always felt he was the one Shallan actually wanted.  She can flirt with him.  They can laugh together.  They have fun.  Of course it started out, and continued, as a political marriage.  It WAS a political marriage.  But there's nothing wrong with that.  

 

People today don't understand that Love is not a feeling.  Love is not something you feel.  Feelings are fickle.  Feelings change moment by moment.  Infatuation is a feeling.  Desire is a feeling.  But love is not a feeling.  Ask Doctor Who, when the solder guy becomes a Cyberman.  Love isn't a feeling.  It is a promise.  It is thinking about the other rather than one's self.  What people call love in America today is selfish.  I want that person.  I need that person.  I won't be complete without that person.  It's all about me.  But that isn't love. 90% of all marriages in the world were arranged, many times without the spouses ever having met each other before the wedding day.  And yet they loved each other.  It was a giving, with no thought of taking.  That is love.  And while many people think "You can't help who you fall in love with", I disagree vehemently.  I decided to love my wife.  I was falling for her.  I was feeling the desire and the infatuation.  But I'd felt that before.  I knew what type of person those other girls were, and I knew the type of woman my future wife was.  And I decided to love her.  When I married her, I decided she would be the one, regardless of feeling.  Regardless of how much she may drive me crazy in the future.  Regardless of whether or not she keeps her side of the promise, I will keep mine, because I decided.  And I still feel those feelings, and those desires, and I have even through the hard times.  Because I don't base my thoughts about her based on my feelings of the moment, but on the conscious decision that I made.  I didn't bond myself to her in haste.  I did it deliberately.  

 

While Shallan was attracted to Kaladin, decided she loved Adolin.  There's nothing wrong with that.  And it does not, in any way, lesson the love she and he will have.  As for how the romance was written, I didn't find anything wrong with it.  I was rooting for it, because I knew they would be good together and it helps everyone involved.  I actually hate, with a passion, love triangles.  They're over done.  I don't care about them.  I hate them.  I want them to go away.  I'm glad they ended it in OB.  Perhaps Kaladin was a little abrupt, ending it as he did.  But I was glad.  Because I don't have to deal with that anymore.  He can move on.

 

I still think he'll get with Jasnah.  I think, of all the men we've seen, he's the only one who'll stand up to her face and throw witty barbs right back at her, and won't be intimidated by her sheer force of will.  And he would never hurt her the way she has obviously been hurt in the past.  

 

Just my thoughts.  

I do agree with your perspective of what love is - not a feeling but a decision, a commitment, and an active effort.  I just don't see that any of that was built up in the Shallan/Adolin plot.  Throughout WoR and most of OB the relationship was sort of coasting along based on expectations of the engagement and not based on deep feelings or emotions for each other.  It also did not seem like either had a strong desire to be married to each other for less romantic reasons like family honor, etc.  They enjoyed each other's company and were physically attracted to each other, but never seemed like a pair that would have gotten together if it weren't for the fact that they were in an arranged engagement for political reasons before they ever met.  Shallan in particular seemed to care very little about her relationship and seemed to place it very low on her priority list.  She was never against it, but she was never trying to actively advance the relationship either.  The sudden choice of getting married which Shallan seemed to justify to herself based on deep feelings that Adolin was the one for her felt out of place.  There weren't any strong feelings shown on screen except in one scene and really only from Adolin's side.  It felt wrong and unearned to me.  Had Shallan's choice been justified based on the fact that she believes marrying Adolin is the right thing to do based on all the logical reasons (politics, already engaged, etc) and that they enjoy each other's company and can make the marriage work, then great.  That would have felt right and in context.  I didn't get that sense.

By contrast, Kaladin's feelings toward Shallan were well developed and built up slowly.  They were not simply placed together before they ever met, Kaladin made the active choice to pursue her at a meaningful cost to himself (at least in terms of romance) and developed feelings toward her completely of his own accord.  Shallan never had romantic feelings for Kaladin and that was also well written.  She actually actively thought about him and figured out how she felt over time on multiple occasions.

But, now that a month has passed on this one, I'll just say to each their own on this.  Different people pick up on different things and it seems like to some people they felt like there were a lot of hints and clues that Adolin and Shallan really wanted to be together.  I never got that sense, but that could just be my own tastes.

As for the Jasnadin ship, I can't say I'm on board.  Jasnah just seems like someone who is uninterested in romance.  I also have never had any sense of any kind of attraction from Kaladin to Jasnah.  You could argue a possible interest from Jasnah's side, though that's still a stretch.  I think they will become friends, but the significant age gap and the fact that their roles in society will probably keep them from spending much time together makes it feel like romance is unlikely.  Who knows though, we may find out that in the year gap from OB to SA4 the two of them have been working together to raise Gavinor and spend tons of time together.  I could see it working under the right circumstances, but think it's pretty unlikely.  I'd rather both of them end up alone than in a situation where they are shoehorned together just because they need to have a romantic partner.

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15 hours ago, agrabes said:

I think they will become friends, but the significant age gap and the fact that their roles in society will probably keep them from spending much time together makes it feel like romance is unlikely.

You mean how one of them is the Captain of the other's guard and is sworn to protect them day and night from any and all threats?  I couldn't possibly imagine how they'd wind up spending much time together.  

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21 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

You mean how one of them is the Captain of the other's guard and is sworn to protect them day and night from any and all threats?  I couldn't possibly imagine how they'd wind up spending much time together.  

Is that right though?  I don't recall Kaladin being made captain of Jasnah's guard, just like he was not captain of Elhokar's guard.  He was captain of Dalinar's guard and sometimes assigned to protect Elhokar.  With the changing roles of the Alethi government vs. the Knights Radiant, I got the strong impression Kaladin was no longer pulling regular guard duty as of early/mid Oathbringer.  I could be totally off on this, but I seriously don't remember any implication that Kaladin would be regularly guarding Jasnah.  Not that it couldn't happen, just that there's no reason we should expect that it does.

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7 hours ago, agrabes said:

Is that right though?  I don't recall Kaladin being made captain of Jasnah's guard, just like he was not captain of Elhokar's guard.  He was captain of Dalinar's guard and sometimes assigned to protect Elhokar.  With the changing roles of the Alethi government vs. the Knights Radiant, I got the strong impression Kaladin was no longer pulling regular guard duty as of early/mid Oathbringer.  I could be totally off on this, but I seriously don't remember any implication that Kaladin would be regularly guarding Jasnah.  Not that it couldn't happen, just that there's no reason we should expect that it does.

Bridge Four got pulled off guard duty, as did the bridge crew that became Teft's squires. Windrunners are scouts/cavalry, not bodyguards.

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4 hours ago, Kon-Tiki said:

Windrunners are scouts/cavalry, not bodyguards.

Agreed. It was so in the beginning of oathbringer itself.. 

windrunners are either scouting the hallways or once Kaladin comes, begin heavy recruitment and then training. 

Edited by The traveller
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22 hours ago, agrabes said:

Is that right though?  I don't recall Kaladin being made captain of Jasnah's guard, just like he was not captain of Elhokar's guard.  He was captain of Dalinar's guard and sometimes assigned to protect Elhokar.  With the changing roles of the Alethi government vs. the Knights Radiant, I got the strong impression Kaladin was no longer pulling regular guard duty as of early/mid Oathbringer.  I could be totally off on this, but I seriously don't remember any implication that Kaladin would be regularly guarding Jasnah.  Not that it couldn't happen, just that there's no reason we should expect that it does.

You are totally right. Kaladin still is Dalinar's bodyguard, and the bridge crews who are not Radiants are still intermixed with the cobalt guard. Besides the scene where bridge 4 is somewhat manipulated into being guards for Navani, they aren't generally guards. At the end of OB even, all of bridge 13 goes up as squires and they stop guarding Dalinar.

That being said, I am pretty certain that Kaladin will take a personal interest in guarding Gavinor, and may spend time with Jasnah for that reason. Not that I am strongly for a ship of Jasnah for anyone.

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3 hours ago, Config2 said:

That being said, I am pretty certain that Kaladin will take a personal interest in guarding Gavinor, and may spend time with Jasnah for that reason. Not that I am strongly for a ship of Jasnah for anyone.

I am curious, why would Kaladin take a personal interest in Gavinor? He has no connection to the child. Oroden I could see, but personally not so much Gavinor. Maybe if Elhokar with his dying breath called to Kaladin to protect his child, but he didn't. Jasnah I could see taking an interest as Gavinor is her brother's son. I could see her training him so he can be a better king than his father was. Gavinor is heir apparent, so it would make sense to me that responsibility would fall to the current ruler. I feel Kaladin has more on his plate commanding the windrunners in the fight against the voidbringers than guarding a child personally. 

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16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am curious, why would Kaladin take a personal interest in Gavinor?

Because then he can keep feeling like an inadequate failure. 

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12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Because then he can keep feeling like an inadequate failure. 

He feels he failed to protect Elhokar true, but the entire time at Kholinar, through Shadesmar, to Thaylenah, he didn't muse to himself even once "I have failed Gavinor. If only I had!". All that time it was failing to stop everyone from killing each other, and pushing himself to save Dalinar. Ultimately it was two bridgemen that saved Gavinor. So that is why I am not sure why Kaladin would take an especial interest in Gavinor when this whole time he did not. 

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51 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am curious, why would Kaladin take a personal interest in Gavinor? He has no connection to the child. Oroden I could see, but personally not so much Gavinor. Maybe if Elhokar with his dying breath called to Kaladin to protect his child, but he didn't. Jasnah I could see taking an interest as Gavinor is her brother's son. I could see her training him so he can be a better king than his father was. Gavinor is heir apparent, so it would make sense to me that responsibility would fall to the current ruler. I feel Kaladin has more on his plate commanding the windrunners in the fight against the voidbringers than guarding a child personally. 

Guilt is very strong driving force for him. We know he feels guilt over the death of Elhokar, and over his inaction immediately following it. Taking care of his son seems like a good way to assuage his conscience. He definitely has a connection to Gavinor, he helped save him, and even though his bridgemen did the heavy lifting in the end, he still helped. Honestly it seems extremely obvious to me that he will care about Gavinor going forward. The question of whether he has too much on his plate is really irrelevant, as it is with all selfless people. He will keep taking on tasks he feels are his to take, regardless of whether he can handle them or not. 

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3 minutes ago, Config2 said:

Guilt is very strong driving force for him. We know he feels guilt over the death of Elhokar, and over his inaction immediately following it. Taking care of his son seems like a good way to assuage his conscience. He definitely has a connection to Gavinor, he helped save him, and even though his bridgemen did the heavy lifting in the end, he still helped. Honestly it seems extremely obvious to me that he will care about Gavinor going forward. The question of whether he has too much on his plate is really irrelevant, as it is with all selfless people. He will keep taking on tasks he feels are his to take, regardless of whether he can handle them or not. 

I respect your opinion, but it still doesn't fit for me. Like I said to Karger, Kaladin didn't agonize over Gavinor the entire time since Elhokar's death, so I don't understand why he would suddenly now. He didn't agonize over the kid when the kid's life was in danger, why would he now that the kid is safe with its family? Elhokar was the one obsessed with saving his wife and child. And he nearly succeeded, till Moash rammed a spear in his head. It was a bridgeman that then grabbed the kid. 

 

Oathbringer page 819

A member of the Queen's Guard scooped up the young prince and carried him away. Azure's men limped back before the growing parshman armies. (Kaladin did not try to grab the child, and makes no thought of him till the later quote below)

Oathbringer page 863

"Little Gav had been taken, and Dalinar was planning to abdicate. (only Adolin seems to think of Gavinor, and that is in relation to him having to become king)

Oathbringer page 893

""But when he instead let himself think, he started rememebering what had happened in Kholinar. Men he loved, killing each other. Awful, terrifying perspective. He could see too many sides. Parshmen angry at being enslaved for years, attempting to overthrow a corrupt government. Alethi protecting their homes from invading monsters. Elhokar trying to save his son. The palace guards trying to keep their oaths" (only mention of the son, is in relation to seeing Elhokr's perspective. not direct connection to Gavinor)

Oathbringer page 925

"He had slept fitfully, slumber interrupted by thoughts of his men dying, of Elhokar and Moash, of worries for Drehy and Skar.." (no mention of Gavinor)

 

So it was the Queen's Guard that thought to grab Gavinor. it was Drehy and Skar that thought to go back for Gavinor and protect him. Gavinor was not on Kaladin's mind except when he mused on seeing through everyone's perspectives as to why they fought each other. But no lamenting on failing the child. No recriminations for not grabbing Gavinor from the Queen's Guard. No personal admonishments for not protecting Gavinor. So personally I do not see why Kaladin would pay special attention and protection to Gavinor now that the child is safe. I could believe Jasnah, I could believe Skar and Drehy, but not Kaladin. 

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52 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

He feels he failed to protect Elhokar true, but the entire time at Kholinar, through Shadesmar, to Thaylenah, he didn't muse to himself even once "I have failed Gavinor. If only I had!". All that time it was failing to stop everyone from killing each other, and pushing himself to save Dalinar. Ultimately it was two bridgemen that saved Gavinor. So that is why I am not sure why Kaladin would take an especial interest in Gavinor when this whole time he did not. 

Congratulations.  You are not Kaladin.  When you look at Gavinor you can think "good on those Windrunners!  They got this one right."  When Kaladin looks on Gavinor.  He thinks "if only I had done better."

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17 minutes ago, Karger said:

Congratulations. 

?

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

You are not Kaladin. 

And neither are you?

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

When you look at Gavinor you can think "good on those Windrunners!  They got this one right."  When Kaladin looks on Gavinor.  He thinks "if only I had done better."

Except we were in Kaladin's head, and Kaladin did not think that. 

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