Who are the Ghostbloods? (spoilers)

[Meandering Monotreme]

I was re-reading WoK and came across Kabsal's notes. It lead me to question who he was. He obviously wasn't just an assassin--he did care about symmetry. That got me wondering about Ghostbloods. So I will say things about the Ghostbloods that we know and things that are just my speculation. (And some things are just comments that are not related to this, but I say because they come up.)

• Kabsal is a Ghostblood. He tries to kill Jasnah. He does this by way of Shallan, who he gets feelings for. While talking to Shallan, he talks about things he cares about, like the symmetry of Roshar. Speaking of symmetry, does anyone else think it strange that the word "Roshar" is not symmetrical?
  
• Thaidakar is implied to be a Ghostblood. When the Shardbearer comes, everyone things Thadikar sent it (was Amaram fighting against Thadikar?) and he apparently wants to kill Gavilar but was beat to the punch by the Parshendi. ("You can tell Thadikar that he is too late...")
  
• Speaking of which, the Shardbearer might be a Ghostblood. I don't remember it being stated, but it was implied.
  
• Shallan's father is a Ghostblood (what is her father's name, anyway?) He also could soulcast the normal way, are these related?
  
• Speculation: Taravangian is a Ghostblood? It would make the choice of targets more understandable: Thadikar wanted to kill Gavilar for the same reason Taravangian wants to kill Dalinar. But this is just speculation.
  

Any thoughts?

Edited September 24, 2011 by Tangletalon

[Ari]

Roshar is "almost symmetrical" in the same way that Shallan's name is- "sh" is one sound, so the only difference is in the vowels. Given that many of the modern names of places in Roshar are derived from palindromes, (Alethkar used to be Alethela, etc...) it's entirely possible that Roshar used to be Roshor or Rashar.

Taragavinian being a Ghostblood is certainly possible, and it would certainly add some bad-guy cred to the organisation. I don't discount the possibility that he's working on his own just yet- Way of Kings left us with far more questions than answers.

[PeterAhlstrom]

Wow, I didn't know Taravangian was that hard to spell. Or are you just using random 4–6-syllable words starting with T and throwing in a g, v, and n or possibly m? It could be a repeating joke, like the pterodactyl in Alcatraz.

Edited September 9, 2011 by PeterAhlstrom

[Aashyma]

<wild guess> What if Thadikar is Shallan's father? </wild guess>

Wow, I didn't know Taravangian was that hard to spell. Or are you just using random 4–6-syllable words starting with T and throwing in a g, v, and n or possibly m? It could be a repeating joke, like the pterodactyl in Alcatraz.

It's not as bad as Rock's real name.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Aashyma

[Xavien]

If Taravangian wanted Jasnah dead, wouldn't he have just used Szeth? He has no problem using Szeth to kill her uncle, and even specified that it would need to be bloody, and Szeth is currently in town. Using an ardent to try to get close to Jasnah (even through Shallan) strikes me as underestimating her and a little naive. Taravangian doesn't strike me as the type to underestimate an opponent or to play the political games the Ghostbloods seem to be playing in Jah Keved/Alethkar. He is bloody and ruthless and believes fully that the ends justify the means. If he wanted Jasnah dead, she would have been hit with something a lot better planned than a (fake?) ardent with poisoned bread. And especially not one with a tattoo of his organization.

In short, I don't think Taravangian is a Ghostblood.

[Cheese Ninja]

I don't think Taravangian is a Ghostblood either. He could be Restares. (One of the other people Gavilar suspects, only mentioned in that one scene.)

If Taravangian had wanted to kill Jasnah, he wouldn't have needed to bother with Kabsal and his poisoned bread. It's his palace and he supplies all of her meals.

Also, "Thaidakar" Peter didn't mention it, but you mispelled that one too.

And I still think the dead Veden Ghostblood Kaladin killed is Shallan's brother Nan Helaran.

[Dros]

I didn't pay enough attention to the Ghostbloods arc, I guess, because I had a vision in my head that they were some sort of mafia or criminal organization.

[CrazyRioter]

I think there more of a secret society, like the Illuminati.

[Dros]

I think there more of a secret society, like the Illuminati.

Maybe it's just Keyser Soze! You know, "a spook story that criminals tell their kids at night."

[Ari]

Wow, I didn't know Taravangian was that hard to spell. Or are you just using random 4–6-syllable words starting with T and throwing in a g, v, and n or possibly m? It could be a repeating joke, like the pterodactyl in Alcatraz.

LOL, I didn't want to look through the book for his name, so I copied someone else on the forum, who turned out to have spelled it wrong too. I was gonna go for Taravingian, which would almost have been right. <.< >.>

I think it's mostly because he has a long name and we don't get to hear it too many times throughout the book, nor does he make any major impression until near the end- at which point we don't return to him anymore.

[Asha'man Logain]

If you say it a certain way, the soft o sound like in 'on' and the british a sound, then Roshar is symetrical. it's just spelled strangely. I think the symetry that is so vaunted is a spoken symetry rather than a written one, which can be hard to get across in a written medium.

EDIT: spelling and grammar.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Asha'man Logain

[happyman]

Wow, I didn't know Taravangian was that hard to spell. Or are you just using random 4–6-syllable words starting with T and throwing in a g, v, and n or possibly m? It could be a repeating joke, like the pterodactyl in Alcatraz.

Heh. My bad. I'll admit to having just guessed on the spelling. I think Ari is right about the reason his name doesn't stick, though.

[Hubay]

I don't have a book near me, so this might be confusing.

I think the man in bridge 4 who knows about the radiants used to be a ghostblood; I think the ghostbloods are the people trying to bring back that order. Think about the name 'ghostblood' itself. It sounds ominous and evil, which is always good, but I don't think brandon would make up name for no reason. They're the last remnant of a dead order, the blood of ghosts, so to speak.

I can see the ghostbloods being halfway between evil secret society and good secret society. They use the idea of bringing the radiants back as a justificAtion for their actions, and probably lot of their members believe strongly in the nobility of their cause. But they also do some pretty terrible things in the name of the cause, and the leaders might only be in it for the power, both in the literal power of the knights radiant and in the symbolic and social power that office contains.

In would also explain why they know so much about using fabrics and soulcasting.

[CabbageHead]

We know the name of the group Teft was a member of, "The Envisagers". I'm not entirely sure what to make of that name, it would loosely mean something along the lines of them imagining or seeing the Radiants before they became reality. Peering into the future towards them, perhaps, which apparently is very much frowned upon by Vorinism. However, I would have a great deal of trouble equating them with the Ghostbloods, both from the difference in their names, and also because Teft believes them to all be gone.

[Meandering Monotreme]

Wow, I didn't know Taravangian was that hard to spell. Or are you just using random 4–6-syllable words starting with T and throwing in a g, v, and n or possibly m? It could be a repeating joke, like the pterodactyl in Alcatraz.

I just was too lazy to actually look, so I made up a spelling. I did what I always do with long names: I notice what the name looks like, and then I know what the book is talking about all the other times. Therefore, I had no idea at all how to spell it. While talking about the book with my siblings, I realized I needed a way to pronounce the name, so I for some reason pronounced it "Tav-mee-grat-an" but don't ask why.

EDIT: My spelling error is now fixed.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Tangletalon

[Meandering Monotreme]

If Taravangian wanted Jasnah dead, wouldn't he have just used Szeth? He has no problem using Szeth to kill her uncle, and even specified that it would need to be bloody, and Szeth is currently in town. Using an ardent to try to get close to Jasnah (even through Shallan) strikes me as underestimating her and a little naive. Taravangian doesn't strike me as the type to underestimate an opponent or to play the political games the Ghostbloods seem to be playing in Jah Keved/Alethkar. He is bloody and ruthless and believes fully that the ends justify the means. If he wanted Jasnah dead, she would have been hit with something a lot better planned than a (fake?) ardent with poisoned bread. And especially not one with a tattoo of his organization.

In short, I don't think Taravangian is a Ghostblood.

I don't think that Jasnah's death was very high on the Ghostbloods list. I think that Kabsal was probably not given many orders--his only order was probably "kill Jasnah" and he underestimated her. Evidence: the whole Shallan thing was obviously not planned, and it was a really bad assasination attempt. Honestly? I think the attempt was originally Kabsal trying to kill Jasnah, but his visits to Shallan were mostly to see Shallan. He put the Jasnah thing on the back burner. Back to the Ghostbloods, he was probably sent as a warning, that she is on the Ghostbloods' death list but not high enough to send real assasins. Kabsal was probably a message.

[lordofsoup]

Wow, I didn't know Taravangian was that hard to spell. Or are you just using random 4–6-syllable words starting with T and throwing in a g, v, and n or possibly m? It could be a repeating joke, like the pterodactyl in Alcatraz.

Thats how I spell things. It is much easier than looking up the correct spelling. You should see my Wheel of Time spellings.

[hoser]

Neat topic. Some overlap with this one. This partially replicates a post I made there. If someone has a better idea about how to handle this situation, please let me know.

In this thread CabbageHead makes an interesting point about motivation to kill Amaram. Basically, it could destabilize Sadeas and the Alethi kingdom.

I agree with Tangletalon that Kabsal may reveal the view point of the Ghostbloods. I am struck by the conversation he has with Shallan in Chapter 45. Talking to Shallan about Jasnah, he says:

"She's trying to prove that the Voidbringers weren't real. ... a fabrication of the Radiants. ... that the devotaries - and Vorinism - are a gigantic fraud. ... Haven't we been scourged enough?" Kabsal said, eyes angry. " ... Yet this is real. It's all real, and they ignore us and -"

He cut off suddenly, glancing at her, lips tight, jaw clenched. She'd never seen such fervor, such fury from the pleasant ardent. She wouldn't have thought him capable of it.

"I'm sorry," he said, ...

For someone trying to be trusted enough to poison Jasnah, this is not a clever thing to say. It could therefore be what he really believes. If he believes this and joined the Ghostbloods, they presumably believe in the Desolations and are trying to do something about them. It also opens up the possibility that the Ghostbloods are involved with Vorinism more deeply. They could also be another group trying to pull a Taravangian.

I agree with Xavien that they are not the same as Taravangian's group because we know what the Taravangians do to those they have a problem with. They just seem to be studying Jasnah, presenting her with not-strong Taravangian and contriving situations to get her to Soulcast even though they have Soulcasters of their own. I don't see evidence that Taravangian's group wanted to kill Jasnah at the point that Kabsal was trying.

The Ghostbloods seem to be concerned with upcoming Desolations, want to destabilize Alethkar (Amaram and Jasnah assassination attempts, suspected in Gavilar's) and want to plant their own highprince in Jah Keved. To answer the original question, they seem to be a competing group trying to destabilize Alethkar, similarly to Taravangian, possibly with some Vorin basis.

[duladen]

We know the name of the group Teft was a member of, "The Envisagers". I'm not entirely sure what to make of that name, it would loosely mean something along the lines of them imagining or seeing the Radiants before they became reality. Peering into the future towards them, perhaps, which apparently is very much frowned upon by Vorinism. However, I would have a great deal of trouble equating them with the Ghostbloods, both from the difference in their names, and also because Teft believes them to all be gone.

I'm pretty sure the taboo of predicting the future was a product of the Hierocracy right? Maybe the Envisagers harken back to before this.

I like the idea that the Ghostbloods are a misdirected remnant if one of the orders, or possibly founded by Shallash. I'm on my phone right now though and too lazy to look up references.

[Natans]

I'm pretty sure the taboo of predicting the future was a product of the Hierocracy right? Maybe the Envisagers harken back to before this.

I like the idea that the Ghostbloods are a misdirected remnant if one of the orders, or possibly founded by Shallash. I'm on my phone right now though and too lazy to look up references.

 First post, first upvote welcome =)

 

Thaikadar appeared in the book, he was the highprince that said no to Dalinar with "polite uncivility" or something I guess. My bet is that this one will be a nail hard to shallow, if he is rude with another Highprince good thing he isn't =)

[hoser]

Welcome also!

I'm pretty sure the taboo of predicting the future was a product of the Hierocracy right? Maybe the Envisagers harken back to before this.

I like the idea that the Ghostbloods are a misdirected remnant if one of the orders, or possibly founded by Shallash. I'm on my phone right now though and too lazy to look up references.

The voice in Dalinar's visions (Tanavast/Honor?) says in the Starfall vision "to speak of what might be is forbidden".  So I think there is a basis for that aspect of Vorinism.  It seems likely that it is perverted somehow, but it is hard to tell how.

 

 First post, first upvote welcome =)

 

Thaikadar appeared in the book, he was the highprince that said no to Dalinar with "polite uncivility" or something I guess. My bet is that this one will be a nail hard to shallow, if he is rude with another Highprince good thing he isn't =)

There are two references to Thaidakar.  Gavilar guesses him to be behind the assassination and Amaram attributes the Shardbearer attack to Thaidakar.  I think the politely uncivil highprince was someone else. 

[duladen]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys!

Welcome also!

The voice in Dalinar's visions (Tanavast/Honor?) says in the Starfall vision "to speak of what might be is forbidden". So I think there is a basis for that aspect of Vorinism. It seems likely that it is perverted somehow, but it is hard to tell how.

Great point. And yes, I rember that these visions are assumed to be something like "recordings" from Tanavast/Honor. The taboo of predicting the future must be much older than the Hierocracy.

[Moogle]

Thaikadar appeared in the book, he was the highprince that said no to Dalinar with "polite uncivility" or something I guess. My bet is that this one will be a nail hard to shallow, if he is rude with another Highprince good thing he isn't =)

 

Quick search through my ebook only finds Thaidakar mentioned in two places: Gavilar's death and Amaram's branding of Kaladin. Do you have a page number I can look at for that?

[Windrunner]

Thaidakar is not a highprince. You're probably thinking of Thanadal, Natans, an easy confustion.

[Natans]

Thaidakar is not a highprince. You're probably thinking of Thanadal, Natans, an easy confustion.

 

Ops indeed, Tks for the heads up Windy. This time I really messed up things in my head =)