Kaladin and others, broke and scarred.

[Wicklander]

Hello everybody! I'm new. I just want to put down some observations about kaladin,

Because he seems to be getting some flack in wor about his attitude. He is hatful, distrustful, angry, withdrawn, hard, and many other negative things. As a soldier that served in the us army for about 11 years and saw action many times in Afghanistan I can surely relate to how his mental state is. It's PTSD folks. Post traumatic stress disorder. A human being, regardless of the circumstances, cannot go through what Kaladin did and not walk away from it mentally scarred, often times for life. In the real world the military treats this disorder seriously and a soldier can get help and support like I did. Kaladin went from soldier to slave to guard, fighting for his life the whole time. He is heading for a complete mental breakdown (or another one at least). Just look at zheth, he is completely broke and scarred. And I suspect Aidolin is walking down the same path. He already got a good start at the end the the book when he "just snapped". I mean, just think about how many people Adolin has killed on the field of battle with that shard blade of his, even if he was justified? Hundreds? Uncountable? War and battle will do this to you. So give kaladin and others a break. I'm surprised they can even get out of bed in the morning!

P.s. I'm not even going to touch how messed up Shallan must be.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Wicklander

[Pathfinder]

Not saying all you stated did not contribute, I am in agreement with you, but just to add additional information, Brandon has stated that Kaladin suffers from seasonal depression. It is why Tien helps him out of it, and it becomes so consuming after Tien dies. 

[Observer]

Depression is a pretty terrible mental disorder. Throw in PTSD and just the simply memories and opinions his experiences have left him with, and you have an instant KR. Somebody who really, really should have broken and totally given up by now, and has already tried once or twice, but is still somehow on their feet. Thanks for helping me collect my thoughts on why I defend Kaladin, I haven't really been sure why up until now.

[Meg]

Aside from the real life aspect that seems obvious for me I dare through in the 'cosmere aspect'.

I'd say that Kaladin or Shallan (I think Lift as well) are "broken" (kind of) is why the spren found their way to them. The spren bond seems to "enable" the abilities those three get. They did "snap" in their own way. Renarin must have been broken too. I am curious if his "blood weakness" (means him being slightly autistic) had been the trigger or the result.

Kchan

How does Snapping work after Sazed changed it? If you don't want to reveal it all right now, are there any hints you can give us?

Brandon Sanderson

He couldn't get rid of this entirely. I don't want to spoil things, but Snapping was built into Allomancy primarily because of larger-scale magical issues. This is getting deep into the issue, but it has to do with a person's spiritual makeup and a 'wounded' spirit being easier to fill with something else, kind of like a cut would let something into the bloodstream. Sazed made this threshold on Scadrial much easier to obtain.

(emphasizes mine)

So that 'brokenness' (for the lack of a better word) makes it easier to get Invested or get access to Investiture, what I mean is, the sDNA is likely easier to be altered. (Ooops, I'm tired, does that make any sense?)

PS: I don't know why the tags don't work.

Edited May 2, 2014 by little wilson
tags require a forward slash (/), not a backslash(\)

[Gabriele]

PS: I don't know why the tags don't work.

 

Because it's [/ b] (without the empty space, of course).

 

The parallels to Allomancy are interesting; I hadn't connected the snapping and broken-ness of both worlds with the Cosmere. Is there anything like that in Warbreaker, too ? (I admit, I put that one down after a few chapters since I couldn't relate to either of the girls, but I may have to pick it up again).

[Observer]

Because it's [/ b] (without the empty space, of course).

 

The parallels to Allomancy are interesting; I hadn't connected the snapping and broken-ness of both worlds with the Cosmere. Is there anything like that in Warbreaker, too ? (I admit, I put that one down after a few chapters since I couldn't relate to either of the girls, but I may have to pick it up again).

 

Warbreaker seems to just have inherent Investure from being born there, though WoB is that the people aren't totally correct about how Returning mechanics work, so if I had to guess I would say that a cracked soul would allow Endowment to work with you.

 

(Also, though this is not the place and I suck at making books sound good, I really recommend giving Warbreaker another shot. Even people who can't relate to the girls tend to at least begin appreciating it around a quarter/half way through. That, and it'll be a good setup for whenever SA 3 comes out.)

 

[Stormfather-in-Law]

I can't wait to find out what broke Jasnah. Must be pretty good, considering what a strong character she is.

[Pathfinder]

I am currently rereading WoK, and although this is purely conjecture, there is a scene where jasnah gives shallan the book with all the blank pages. She states fondly how someone of that devotary very nearly convinced her of the Almighty's existence and she held the book like it meant a lot to her. I posit she lost that person somehow and that might have caused the snapping. It would also possibly explain why she never got into a relationship with anyone

[kaellok]

I've mentioned all of my complaints regarding Kaladin in fairly great detail before, so I'll keep this as brief as I can.  Note that I agree that the portrayal of Kaladin in WoR may be realistic, but it doesn't make him more sympathetic or enjoyable to read.

 

There is an immediate backslide of Kaladin at the end of WoK to Kaladin at the beginning of WoR in terms of his attitude.  His character arc in WoR is damnation close to identical to his character arc in WoK (the scenery on the path is different, and maybe he takes a couple different branches along the way, but reading from WoK to WoR straight through it was very super obvious noticeable and more importantly annoying).  He killed Syl because of his desire to hold onto his hate.  He is a hypocrite, in that he judges people based on eye color to at least the same amount as anyone else in the room with him.

 

In WoK, Kaladin's viewpoint writing was the right balance to keep me interested in him, rooting for him, empathizing with him because of similar struggles we have gone through; he was my second favorite character in the book (Syl, of course, being most favorite), the same with most people.  WoR didn't have the same type of balance.  On at least four occasions, rather than stay up reading later into the night, I saw it was a Kaladin chapter and closed the book to sleep.  I think that Sanderson could (should) have written his character arc differently than Spider Man 3. 

 

Did I mention that Kaladin killed Syl because he loved hate too much!?  Just because he later had an incredibly well-written redeeming scene where he saves Elhokar and brings Syl back doesn't change that bit--not even a little.

[Kogiopsis]

I've mentioned all of my complaints regarding Kaladin in fairly great detail before, so I'll keep this as brief as I can.  Note that I agree that the portrayal of Kaladin in WoR may be realistic, but it doesn't make him more sympathetic or enjoyable to read.

 

There is an immediate backslide of Kaladin at the end of WoK to Kaladin at the beginning of WoR in terms of his attitude.  His character arc in WoR is damnation close to identical to his character arc in WoK (the scenery on the path is different, and maybe he takes a couple different branches along the way, but reading from WoK to WoR straight through it was very super obvious noticeable and more importantly annoying).  He killed Syl because of his desire to hold onto his hate.  He is a hypocrite, in that he judges people based on eye color to at least the same amount as anyone else in the room with him.

 

In WoK, Kaladin's viewpoint writing was the right balance to keep me interested in him, rooting for him, empathizing with him because of similar struggles we have gone through; he was my second favorite character in the book (Syl, of course, being most favorite), the same with most people.  WoR didn't have the same type of balance.  On at least four occasions, rather than stay up reading later into the night, I saw it was a Kaladin chapter and closed the book to sleep.  I think that Sanderson could (should) have written his character arc differently than Spider Man 3. 

 

Did I mention that Kaladin killed Syl because he loved hate too much!?  Just because he later had an incredibly well-written redeeming scene where he saves Elhokar and brings Syl back doesn't change that bit--not even a little.

 

This comment is just fascinating to me, because all of the reasons you listed as making Kaladin less sympathetic are things I find make him more so.  I guess part of that is that I actually deal with depression myself, so seeing a fictional character struggle and backslide and eventually succeed through supreme effort really resonates with me.  I'd honestly feel kind of betrayed had Kaladin not still had all of those flaws in WoR - we've got too many fictional stories about how one success magically does away with depression and fixes everything.  (And as one of my friends said about his WoK arc, it's boring and grinding and repetitive because that's what life is like when you're depressed - the same applies to Kaladin going through a similar process in WoR.  Dealing with depression is kind of just... a thing you keep doing in perpetuity.)

 

As far as his prejudice re: lighteyes, I can't help but see a lot of parallels to racism in the modern world in that?  It's perfectly reasonable for someone who's been on the bad end of societal inequality for years not to trust those who've gained from the system, especially when (like Kaladin) they have numerous traumatic experiences as a result of that societal imbalance being used against them.  Kaladin's categorical hatred of lighteyes is misplaced in some cases (see: his dismissal of Dalinar after the duel) but we only know that because we, as readers, have perspective that he doesn't - and even the lighteyes whose POVs we've seen still mess up as a direct result of the societal privilege with which they were raised.  (See: Dalinar mistrusting Kaladin about Amaram; Adolin casually insisting that stratification is natural and not exploitative.)  Honestly, if I were in Kaladin's place and had been hurt by lighteyes over and over, I would be suspicious of them all too.

 

Note that I'm not saying that Kaladin doesn't have flaws - I think a lot of his arc in WoR was about exposing his flaws and exploring their consequences.  But I think that flaws, especially those with dramatic consequences, make a character more relatable.  I'm certainly not perfect, and I'd be bored to tears reading about protagonists who are!

 

(I also respectfully disagree that his redemption scene changes nothing; that's a scene highlighting character growth and pushing him forward into a new arc, and while it doesn't negate his previous mistakes, that growth should be taken into account when discussing him as a character.  It's reductive to pretend that either state - Kaladin at his most flawed or Kaladin at his best - is absolute; what makes him compelling is the way, like a real person, he moves between the two.)

[kaellok]

 

(I also respectfully disagree that his redemption scene changes nothing; that's a scene highlighting character growth and pushing him forward into a new arc, and while it doesn't negate his previous mistakes, that growth should be taken into account when discussing him as a character.  It's reductive to pretend that either state - Kaladin at his most flawed or Kaladin at his best - is absolute; what makes him compelling is the way, like a real person, he moves between the two.)

 

Snip!

 

Only responding to this, as I think you misunderstood what I meant: Kal killed Syl.  It doesn't matter how much growth he shows after.  It doesn't matter that she comes back because of that growth.  He could say the Fourth Ideal and suddenly start farting Shardplate, and it wouldn't matter.  He loved hate so much that he killed the person who saved his life.  While I can still enjoy him as a character, and I can enjoy his arc more now than I did initially, there is literally nothing that he can do to change that fact.  He could single-handedly defeat Odium, and reforge the 16 Shards into Adonalsium, and it wouldn't still not change that fact.  

 

I'm definitely substantially more like Shallan than Kaladin (surprisingly similar, really, and for many reasons think Sanderson's done an amazing job portraying her well, because of those similarities).  I'm sorry you deal with depression; you aren't alone.  I deal with it by presenting a different, happier self to the world because that's the person I'd like to be.  I get when that doesn't work, too, and so you just stay at home closeted in a pile of blankets all day instead and read a good book.  As much as I love Sanderson as an author (and he's my favorite living author), he could have written Kal's arc in a way that didn't feel like an exact, step-for-step retread of what had gone before by exploring different concepts that relate to what he was going through.  The Parshendi would have been perfect for this; there was a lead-in to that very facet at the end of WoK, he turned out to have one in Bridge Four, and the issue was very tangentially approached, but no time was spent exploring that dynamic at all.

 

The lost opportunities to explore his story arc in a way that was relatable and realistic but also entertaining to read is my problem with his story arc.  Oh, and he killed Syl.  He can never be my favorite character again, because of that.

[Aleksiel]

I wouldn't say Kaladin 'loved to hate'. He doesn't hate Elhokar. He was in unstable state of mind and got influenced by his best friend and Dalinar and Elhokar's treatments.

 

Note that Kal doesn't go ahead to try and murder Amaram, he tries to get justice the only way he could think of. Then Elhokar over-reacted, Dalinar dismissed him (for all he knew). After all this, in his darkest deepest depression, Kal convinced himself everything will be better without Elhokar. I don't see a 'love to hate' motif here.

[hoser]

Call me confused.

I've ...

Did I mention that Kaladin killed Syl because he loved hate too much!?  ...

 

Snip!...

  Oh, and he killed Syl.  He can never be my favorite character again, because of that.

Yes, the overly responsible Kaladin blames himself for having killed Syl.

Yes, the insane Stormfather blames him for killing Syl.

Yes, unaware of the consequences to Syl, Kaladin promised to help assassinate Elhokar.

 

In the book I read:

Syl becomes temporarily incapacitated by forcing stormlight through a weakened bond.  If we want to describe her as dead, it is not like the death people experience.  If dead, it is a self-sacrifice, done willingly and without resentment. 

Kaladin's conflicting promises weakened the bond, but even the case for killing Elhokar is somewhat defensible, making the description of Kaladin's motivation as "loved to hate", an exaggeration or oversimplification. 

 

I get not liking Kaladin because of what happened to Syl.  I don't get "Kaladin killed Syl because he loved hate too much!?"

[Pathfinder]

Also I would say in defense of Kal, at one point he asks the Stormfather why is there so much war, and it replies "Odium reigns", so it could also be that shards influence in that world that seems to amplify his hatred. Just my thought on the matter, not sure that is canon or anything.  

[kari-no-sugata]

Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be a theme with Surgebinders having trouble keeping certain feelings/emotions in check - the same feelings and emotions that allowed them to attract their spren in the first place. This seems to be a reasonable problem for the characters to have - after all, the various KR spren aren't going to be attracted to weak and fleeting emotions.

 

Let's start with the non-obvious choice of Dalinar. His oath is to unite people and bring them together. Sounds fine but take it too far and he becomes dominating and dictatorial. Putting it another way, Dalinar has problems with "control". He helped his brother unite Alethkar but they did it by the sword - what Dalinar needs to do now is far harder and in more difficult circumstances. I suspect we might see a lot of philosophical discussion about Vorium culture and the like in the next book - the whole nahn/dahn system divides/stratifies society.

 

Jasnah's theme might be around rationality/logic. Being rational, careful and avoiding fooling yourself is hard. But, take it too far and you can become detached and cold.

 

Renarin is harder to guess at than Jasnah but I think his theme might be being observant vs being overly sensitive to your surroundings.

 

Shallan is creative, has a positive outlook and is able to accept things and move on quickly. But being able to get over things by ignoring them or blanking them out is dangerous and can also stop you from learning/growing. Being too optimistic can lead you to take too many risks. If you start fooling yourself with your own creations or start inventing things that simply aren't there then you can become detached from reality.

 

Kaladin has a strong desire to protect and for most of WoR he is being a "bodyguard". It is rare for people to be passionate about protecting others, to be willing to lay down your own life for others. But Kaladin also has to watch out for threats that could come at any time from (nearly) anyone - take things too far and you can become paranoid and distrustful, even to your friends. It can also lead to strong divisions of "them" (the enemy) and "us" which can lead to unnecessary aggression.

 

Please note that I'm not saying that I think the characters are all going mad or have already gone mad. These are the challenges they're facing. I think this theme also fits well with the cover flap blurb - Stormlight can help heal the cracks but can also widen them.

 

PS I do think Kaladin has "anger" problems. He is "a man of passions" and sometimes he uses anger to motivate himself but sometimes he takes it as the "easy" way out. I see his anger problems as being more a symptom of his other problems.