The Bone-devouring Taln [Mistborn Spoilers]

[Moogle]

sadavidas originally proposed it here. The theory is that Taln is a kandra. It's a ridiculously unlikely theory, but I thought it'd be nice to organize all the evidence anyways because I like it.

• Taln is super fast, an attribute that could be explained by a kandra's Blessings.
• Taln's eyes are dark despite holding what should be an Honorblade. Because Szeth's eyes change color whenever he's summoned his Honorblade, this should not have happened.
• Taln says what he does seemingly becaise they were drilled into him. In his interlude he says “I am Talenel’Elin, Herald of War.” Voice. He spoke it. He didn’t think it. The words came, like they always came."
  
  This could be explained by Odium mind control because of the Hemalurgic spikes. Ruin was not the only one who could exploit that, as Allomancy (which is of Preservation) proves.
• We have WoB there's a kandra worldhoppers now.
• In Taln's Interlude, he mentions feeling like he's on fire and burning. Could possibly be a side-effect of Odium taking him over, much like Marsh saw the world as filled with wonderful destruction when Ruin controlled him.

A somewhat plausible way things happened is that a kandra worldhopper to Roshar and Odium noticed. Odium then took the kandra over, had it eat the bones of an Alethi somewhere up in the north, and then 'expanded' on the body to make it more muscular and impressive and look like the real Taln (because Odium knows what it looks like, the kandra can take that form).

 

Odium then controls the kandra into saying everything it does, possibly to make the Herald's jobs harder because they'll be seen as madmen. Taln himself may still be in Damnation being tortured because the 'true' Desolation has not yet come, just the Everstorm.

 

The theory is ridiculously unlikely, to the point of almost being disproven simply due to the fact that we get a point of view from "Taln". That said, I think it's interesting enough to discuss on its own.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Moogle

[Numb]

Moash didn't see destruction in the world when Ruin actively used him, he instead saw beauty in destruction/ruin. I'd imagine the same thing might happen if Odium would take over someone. They would view things/acts of hatred as beauty instead. That's why Moash basically always wanted to be controlled by Ruin so he wouldn't have the pain of his actions.

[Moogle]

Moash didn't see destruction in the world when Ruin actively used him, he instead saw beauty in destruction/ruin. I'd imagine the same thing might happen if Odium would take over someone. They would view things/acts of hatred as beauty instead. That's why Moash basically always wanted to be controlled by Ruin so he wouldn't have the pain of his actions.

 

This is a good point, but I'm not convinced. I think Odium would cause anyone who was controlled by it to feel hatred and loathing for everything they see. This still doesn't fit in with "Taln"'s PoV (it's better explained by "Taln" having actually having spent time in Damnation), but it could be somewhat feasible.

[RShara]

It was pointed out when I suggested that Taln was spiked to think he's Taln--but I don't think Brandon wants the cosmere to be in the forefront so much that an important and eventual PoV character will be from a different planet, so no kandra yet.

[Ren]

It's an interesting theory, but don't we have a WoB that Taln at the end of TWoK is the real Taln? And Taln we see in WoR is not acknowledged to be Taln. So kandra switching has to be done in between both books.

[Moogle]

It's an interesting theory, but don't we have a WoB that Taln at the end of TWoK is the real Taln? And Taln we see in WoR is not acknowledged to be Taln. So kandra switching has to be done in between both books.

 

I don't know of any such WoB. Brandon has consistently referred to Taln as "the one who calls himself Taln" since TWoK, or so I recall. If anyone has one, it would be useful. If it was the real Taln, I'm curious as to why his Honorblade didn't lighten his eyes. It should have, so I assume "Taln" didn't have an Honorblade at the end of TWOK.

[RShara]

The WoB is that the person who arrived at the gates of Kholinar is the same person who was delivered to the warcamps.  No confirmation of anything other than it's the same person, whoever he is

 

The Blades are definitely different though.

[Citizen]

Maybe a Kandra switch was arranged by Wit after Taln arrived at the war camps. Wit has spent a lot of time on Roshar but we don't know much about his scheming other than his pep talks with Kalladin and Shallan. He's got to be up to more. For some reason I've always suspected he was involved in Taln's honor blade switch. I also wonder whether or not Dalinar knew the shard blade he bonded wasn't the original. Maybe a Kandra shard blade swap occurred at the same time.

[Delightful]

Moash didn't see destruction in the world when Ruin actively used him, he instead saw beauty in destruction/ruin. I'd imagine the same thing might happen if Odium would take over someone. They would view things/acts of hatred as beauty instead. That's why Moash basically always wanted to be controlled by Ruin so he wouldn't have the pain of his actions.

I thought kandra are controlled by Harmony? Or is it by the nearest shard?

[Numb]

We don't know if Harmony actively controls them like Ruin did or they merely follow Harmony's orders. I wonder if Harmony could have changed them in some way so active control is no longer possible. Seems to be too big a liability for a worldhopper if any shard could just take control.

[Aether]

That control mechanism was built in by the Lord Ruler in the first place, so I don't see why Harmony couldn't remove it if he was so inclined. And it doesn't really mash with his Intent, nor Sazed personally, to control them directly.

[Numb]

That control mechanism was built in by the Lord Ruler in the first place, so I don't see why Harmony couldn't remove it if he was so inclined. And it doesn't really mash with his Intent, nor Sazed personally, to control them directly.

 

Oh I assumed it was just the nature of spiking that let shards control them. If TLR intentionally put it in then it seems even more likely harmony removed it.

[Aether]

Oh I assumed it was just the nature of spiking that let shards control them. If TLR intentionally put it in then it seems even more likely harmony removed it.

Actually, I was wrong. There is something inherent in Hemalurgy that makes spiked individuals prone to outside manipulation. From the Coppermind:

Ruin constructed Hemalurgy with a flaw: each spike creates holes in the mind, making them easier to manipulate. Through powerful emotional Allomancy, one can Push on a spiked creature's emotions so hard that they literally come under the Allomancer's control. Indeed, the spikes in the koloss were what allowed the Lord Ruler to control them. Kandra also can be controlled in this way, but as Allomancers decreased in power, this knowledge was forgotten.

The information is taken partially from the epigraphs of the Hero of Ages and partially from the Mistborn annotations.

That said, Rashek might have made this flaw even easier to use on his artificial constructs (Kandra, Koloss and Inquisitors), in which case it should be possible to revert it. Sazed might also have found a way to circumvent it. If not, than it would - as you yourself point out - be rather risky to send them Worldhopping to a world with a Hostile Shard.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Aether

[Dravs]

Wasn't there a WoB where it was stated that hemalurgy works on all shard worlds?  Is it possible that the Heralds are hemalurgic constructs and Taln is being controlled in the same way Marsh was?  Or possibly the real Taln was hemalurgy spiked and the person who received it now has the memories (albeit scattered and jumbled) of Taln?

[Numb]

If Ruin built in the flaw it should be possible for Harmony to remove it. Although if it works on all shard worlds does that mean that it actually is of Ruin? Does metal only from Scadrial work? Does one need to be spiked on Scadrial or can you spike anyone anywhere? Hemalogy didn't seem to be known pre-TLR so I don't really see how the heralds would be hemalurgic unless Ati told Honor about the magic before his mind got bent by the shard.

[Delightful]

Seeing as Hemalurgy works cross-Cosmere, I find it doubtful that it's specific to Scadrial and Scadrian metals.

 

If "Taln" is spiked and is being controlled by anyone, it seems he's controlled either by no one, or by Harmony, with the exception that maybe maybe Harmony sends out worldhoppers not realising they have this fatal flaw that leaves them open to other-Shardic influence.

[PorridgeBrick]

If Ruin built in the flaw it should be possible for Harmony to remove it. Although if it works on all shard worlds does that mean that it actually is of Ruin? Does metal only from Scadrial work? Does one need to be spiked on Scadrial or can you spike anyone anywhere? Hemalogy didn't seem to be known pre-TLR so I don't really see how the heralds would be hemalurgic unless Ati told Honor about the magic before his mind got bent by the shard.

Any metal should work, seeing as an Allomancer can burn Soulcast metal. I still doubt the Spiked theory however, on the grounds that he's far too major a character and Sanderson wants SA to stand alone.

[Numb]

Maybe I should ask this in the Mistborn forums instead since I'm struggling to understand how Hemulogy works then. It seems to have no common medium if it works on any metal on any planet. Everything else requires some change to the persons sDNA and a conduit to use the power. If hemulogy works on everyone does that mean that every human on a shardworld has some common sDNA that lets them use Hemulogy? If that's the case then how exactly did Ruin make the magic system on Scadrial. It sounds like the system was around even before Ruin but he merely altered it. 

[Moogle]

Everything else requires some change to the persons sDNA and a conduit to use the power.

 

That's just it, though. Hemalurgy doesn't involve any conduits or anything from the user. Anyone can do it, because their spirit is not involved. There's no power transfer from them. Anyone can facet a gem and imprison a spren, and anyone can stick a spike in someone just right and cut up and steal bits of their soul. The important part is intent, and probably metal (since Ruin's focus is metal). It's also very very possible that gemstone spikes on Roshar would work, and would maybe even be required.

 

Metal seems special in the Cosmere. Sprenblades are metal, Nightblood is metal, old-style fabrials seem to be made of metal. This could all be because of Ruin - I've said before that new-style and old-style fabrials appear to be very much like Hemalurgy. Maybe they are Hemalurgy. A good question for that one thread would be "before Ruin came to Scadrial, did aluminum have the same effects on Investiture?".

Edited April 30, 2014 by Moogle