A way to calculate lifespan of Knight Radiants

[kirron]

In TWOK when Dalinar fought with the knight radiant, the lady knight said Harkaylain was not often wrong in anticipating desolations.  Which means Harkaylain must have fought several desolations.  I'm thinking the time between desolations couldn't be just for a couple of years or even decades or else humanity would have been wiped out if they came so frequently even with the radiants.  Leading to the conclusion that surgebinding must affect how radiants age if Harkaylain has a track record on knowing when desolations come.    

 

Of course this hinges on the Heralds not breaking so easily and that the desolations are so destructive that there must be time for humanity to recover.  Also Dalinar did not really describe Harkaylain in a way to determine his age so its just speculation.  

 

Anyway I was thinking about this because Jasnah will be in her late 40s, early 50s in the second half of the series.  Brandon would be doing something different if Jasnah is actually that age but I'll go with surgebinding slowing the ageing process.  

 

 

[Bramble Thorn]

You are making the assumption that Harkaylain is a squishy human and not an embodied piece of nature, AKA a spren,

 

Personally, I do think KR should be long lived due to stormlight resetting their age to whatever age they think they should be. But that quote you gave is not necessarily evidence towards that end.

[Swimmingly]

I think the OP is right; especially given that one of the consequences of Breath-holding is immortality, and Breath as a system is pretty close in terms of fundamentals to Stormlight. I get the impression that only a minimum of jury-rigging is required to make the two systems function together. Of course, powering surges with Breath is probably really wasteful, unless you can reclaim them, so there's that.

[Crysanja]

i guess KR are immortal - aging is a process, of accumulating damage. damage by reproducing cells.

this should be covered with stormlight

 

so if they dont break their oath, the Spren stay with them, and they dont get insane they should live forever.

[Numb]

I agree they shouldn't age. The mortality rate of desolations is so high that I doubt anyone ever lived long enough to go insane or have issues. This could also be part of why they gave up their oaths, to my knowledge this latest period was the first time ever a large gap has occurred between desolations. Previously they were constantly rebuilding/fighting but a huge period of idle time for individuals that don't age sounds like a bad idea.

[Tempus]

I second the point about Breath. The fifth heightening and above makes people functionally unaging. The Returned (who have a single breath that grants the fifth heightening) seem to be able to change their physical form at will based on their self-perception. Stormlight healing heals and maintains a person based on their self-perception as well. The returned breath can also be granted to allow instaneous healing akin to Stormlight healing. It aligns quite nicely.

[dyring]

It might be simple enough that they dont age while they hold enough stormlight. Like you dont age if you hold enough breath.

 

But as said, ithe harkaiyiyiyi fellow might not have been human. Its also possible that regrowth or some other surge lessens aging, that its not the stormlight itself.

 

Its also possible that sometimes, the desolations came closer to eachother. Perhaps then they were less bad? So its long peace followed by bad desolation, or short peace with lesser desolations?

[Kurkistan]

Have we all forgotten that Feruchemical gold doesn't stop aging? All this discussion of self-image and the like has been part of our understanding of cosmere-healing for quite some time, and Brandon uses nearly the exact same language now to discuss how Stormlight heals.

 

Source:

Q [1:01:52]: Why can Stormlight heal Lopen's arm, but can't heal Kaladin's scars?

A: Because a lot of the healing in the cosmere works on principles of expectation and how you envision yourself.

Q: So Kaladin has accepted the scars.

A: And Lopen never accepted the one arm. It's one of these ties when I built the magic systems that I wanted certain threads to run through them, so when I eventually have them being used in the same books, there will be consistency among them, so they won't feel like everything's just thrown together. So, the intention and expectation, for instance, in Warbreaker. What you want to have happen, the expectation, the way you are thinking about things, all that influences what actually happens. Very important for most of the cosmere magics.

 

So it seems that Stormlight acts nearly (if not completely) identically to Feruchemical gold and normal AonDor and the like in its healing. The same things that stop Miles from being immortal should work for surgebinders too, I think.

 

EDIT: Also, the Heightenings for BioChroma are a function of growing "closer" to Endowment, not simply of holding Investiture. Similarly with the healing done by Divine Breath: It functions on entirely different principles from other, "perception-based", healing in the cosmere.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Terra of Roshar]

The question, though, is whether Feruchemical gold, Stormlight, and the Dor don't heal aging because people don't think they should, the same way Kaladin's brands don't heal because he's accepted them as permanent. At least, that's my question. Maybe someone with more cosmere knowledge can explain why I'm wrong.

[Kurkistan]

An excellent question, I think. So far as I can tell, it comes down to either "everyone just sees themselves/each other as naturally getting older" or you need to go a bit... outside to get the job done.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Kurkistan

[dyring]

The main cause ppl see holdings stormlight more like holding breaths then feruchamical gold is, well, just that. You hold stormlight. Its something thats constant, in a way if you keep it in you.

 

Feruchemical gold is something you use. Feruchemical gold would haveto heal ageing. Stormlight would just stop cellular decay, same as breaths wich dont make you younger if you get them at extreme age(right?). Two different things, and where stormlight acts more like breaths.

[Kurkistan]

I don't really accept this parallel.

 

For one, the Stormlight is actively expended whenever it heals something. Breath's ability to ward off age or disease is constant and does not expend any Breath. The better health that Breath yields is more as a consequence of your state of being than of some direct application of Investiture, then.

 

That brings us to the main point: The "healing" that Breaths do is not in any way something that we would call healing. It is, as I linked to, a function of growing closer to the "idea" of Endowment.

 

Source:

Kurkistan: So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

-[Editor's note: Talking of Susebron here]

Brandon: You are... <LONG pause> You are, um, on the right track.

Kurkistan: Okay

Brandon: Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of diety, right?

Kurkistan: Yeah.

Brandon: And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the diety Endowment, correct?

Kurkistan: Yes.

Brandon: And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

Kurkistan: But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

Brandon: Yes, yes yes exactly.

 

 

I will also emphasize that what Divine Breath does when it heals is a quite different matter from what normal, held-Breath does in BioChroma. And even that is not linked to how Stormlight seems to work.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

So it seems that Stormlight acts nearly (if not completely) identically to Feruchemical gold and normal AonDor and the like in its healing. The same things that stop Miles from being immortal should work for surgebinders too, I think.

 

EDIT: Also, the Heightenings for BioChroma are a function of growing "closer" to Endowment, not simply of holding Investiture. Similarly with the healing done by Divine Breath: It functions on entirely different principles from other, "perception-based", healing in the cosmere.

 

So what makes you think that Stormlight heals like Feruchemical gold as opposed to Divine Breath? I find the similarities between Stormlight and DB to be very compelling. The whole 'perfection' thing of Stormlight strikes me as similar to how DB improves more than just one's physical injuries.

 

As to the Heightenings being a function of growing closer to Endowment, could you not make a similar argument that Stormlight has this the idea of being bestowed by Honor incorporated into it, and thus it brings you closer to being Honor (or Cultivation, whatever Shard is responsible for Stormlight)?

[Kurkistan]

Because Brandon has talked about Stormlight being limited by perception, just like permanent Resealing and Feruchemical gold are. I feel fairly confident in saying that Feruchemical gold is never going to give a tongue and the ability to speak with it to a man who has never in his living memory had a tongue. DB-healing will, though, and specifically because of this entirely different mechanism that Brandon was kind enough to lay out for us. A mechanism that makes no mention of perception.

 

The two kinds of healing simply work on different core principles, and Stormlight quite clearly falls onto the "Feruchemical gold" side of that divide.

 

Perhaps you could try and make some argument about Stormlight "bringing you close to X" or something, but my point is that you oughtn't to use Stormlight's healing abilities to justify it.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Tempus]

Another possibility is savant. We haven't yet seen a Stormlight savant, but Brandon has mentioned that not only is it possible, but that we will see scenarios involving it or approaching it. Perhaps constantly holding Stormlight, until the point you reach Savancy slows aging drastically.

 

Another another possibility is that Stormlight and Feruchemical gold healing are simply retarding the aging process due to the fact you are constantly healed. There are a number of factors that could limit human lifespan, but the usual quoted average optimal lifespan is suggested to be approximately 125 years. We don't know how frequently the Desolations occurred, but someone who would live to 125 years would not be functionally immortal, but would still have been likely to see two or more Desolations, it seems.

 

Another another another possibility is that there is some method of time travel forward, like in Mistborn. We know at least Hoid had a method prior to gaining Allomancy, so there is certainly more than one method.

 

Another another another another possibility is that Harkaylain is a scholar who predicted Desolations like modern Rosharians predict Highstorms - with math. He lived, wrote a book of his predictions, and died. They continue to reference his predictions because of their unprecedented accuracy, making his name a byword.

 

Lastly, Heralds are clearly immortal, which says something interesting about them in light of Kurkistan's assertions.

[Rybal]

Lastly, Heralds are clearly immortal, which says something interesting about them in light of Kurkistan's assertions.

 

Well, we DO know that they aren't "normal". They have some sort of power, even without their blades. We just haven't seen it yet.

[Swimmingly]

Have we all forgotten that Feruchemical gold doesn't stop aging? All this discussion of self-image and the like has been part of our understanding of cosmere-healing for quite some time, and Brandon uses nearly the exact same language now to discuss how Stormlight heals.

Source:

So it seems that Stormlight acts nearly (if not completely) identically to Feruchemical gold and normal AonDor and the like in its healing. The same things that stop Miles from being immortal should work for surgebinders too, I think.

EDIT: Also, the Heightenings for BioChroma are a function of growing "closer" to Endowment, not simply of holding Investiture. Similarly with the healing done by Divine Breath: It functions on entirely different principles from other, "perception-based", healing in the cosmere.

Perhaps the spren bond, then - effectively turning the KR into holders of Splinters of Honor, though individidually sentient ones - is what grants the immortality. That little piece of Honor clearly alters your body in some ways, why not this?

[Kurkistan]

These are some interesting thoughts on other ways that Radiants could (potentially) have increased lifespans. I am glad we're moving away from "because healing means they don't age".

[dyring]

I like Tempus thing, that Harkyiyiy(damnation name;)) might have written a book of predictions or something.

 

Besides, there was 101 desolation right? Might remember wrong, but it was alot of them.

 

Now, how long ago was the shattering of adonalsium I wonder?

 

for there to be 100 years between each, it would be 10000 years (+ the years after the final desolations)

 

I doubt it could have been that long. Some of the desolations must have been closer eachother then others.

 

And healing would make them longer lived anyway. In the tech level of Roshar at that point, what would be the average age? 50-ish if you survived childhood?

 

With perfect health from stormlight, 100+ should be fairly common.

Edited March 26, 2014 by dyring

[Patrick Star]

I like the biologically immortal Radiants theory going on here.

 

What better way for humanity to stay prepared for a desolation than having a large amount of superpowered surgebinders who fought in previous ones?

 

On a slightly unrelated note, could this mean that some members of the Skybreakers (order, not Nalan's vigilantes) still be alive?

 

Anyways, the average KR lifespan (in years)?

 

[Armless writer]

Radiants could maybe get immortality or no more aging from there spren because they are part of honor and cultivation essences in combination with holding investure.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Armless writer

[Moogle]

We also had a neat discussion on this topic here, though glancing through it, it seems painfully outdated by new information from WoR.

 

In any case, I think it is very likely that Surgebinders live longer on average (when you remove any non-aging deaths) but are not immortal. I could see it going either way. I don't think there would be a concern about lost knowledge from Desolations if Surgebinders could live forever. The solution to save knowledge was to form the Knights Radiant, or so WoR lead me to understand. The Radiants remaining post-Desolation could help get the lost knowledge back out to the people.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Moogle

[Tempus]

I second the point about Desolations being fairly close together, incidentally. There were 99 desolations (101 was dalmations - almost the same thing). Roshar after the Desolations lasted 4500 hundred years. Since human history is about 6k years long, and they were about Bronze age prior to the Knights Radiant, and are currently about early Renaissance or so... The Desolations should be about 300-6000 years max, probably about 1000 or so, or one desolation every decade.

 

 

Interestingly, this puts Roshar as one of the earliest human colonized planets.

[Baine]

Remember, most Desolations wiped out nine-tenths of the population out. There needs to be at least ~300 years between each to recover. They could've been on Roshar for dozens of millenia (as a lower estimate) and we would have no way of knowing, since they keep getting almost completely annihilated.

 

My best guess for the range is about 300-1000 years between Desolations.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Baine

[Tempus]

I dunno, I just don't buy it. We know Sanderson is a logical guy, so I can't really justify even 300 years as plausible. Why not?

 

Humanity existed on Yolen, with approximately Medieval technology. Written human history goes back about 6000 years now, to the beginning of the Bronze Age. We know that the Desolation occasionally brought the local civilization out of the Iron Age, and into the Bronze Age. We know that it was infrequent, but not uncommon, by the way 'Taln' talks. We know that it took Rosharans after the Recreance about 4500 years to get to the early Renaissance-ish tech. And a Rosharan year is slightly shorter, so the current tech advancement rate is about the same as humanity.

 

So, given your conservative estimate of 300 years per Desolation, over 100 desolations, you're talking 30 000 years of human history on Roshar.

 

We know that once Adonalsium shattered, the shards left the planet. We know that's about when humans migrated to Roshar.

 

So, given that human history to the 'modern era' takes about 6000 years, give or take a thousand, why exactly are all the other planets on par with Roshar? Development on Scadrial was retarded 1000 years by the Lord Ruler, but we know Way of Kings and Alloy of Law are historically similar in time period. Sel has an even more advanced tech, especially Elantrians (who were already studying waveforms), and Elantris is many, many years earlier.

 

Frankly, a 30 000 year gap where Roshar didn't advance in technology because it was getting Desolated doesn't make a lick of sense when we know there are at least seven other inhabited planets, none of which have any sort of modern technology, all within the same 1000 years of so of human historical development.

 

It's just too much of a stretch. Even assuming Roshar was first, I can't really support more than an 1000 year delay to global tech.

 

A more likely scenario might be - the Vorin church lied. 99 is a very coincidental number for the 'last Desolation' to stop at. 9/10 of the population dead per Desolation wouldn't recover even in 300 years - in post-agriculture, pre-industrial societies, historic earth compound birth rate for 300 years maxed out at 400% or so, and was more often stable due to inability to support populations past a certain range. 400% is a far cry from the 900% needed to repopulate, and at a 50% loss of population per Desolation, the population would be negligible (<1%) by about the 7th Desolation.

 

So, overall, some severe doubts about the time span and ferocity of the Desolations as described.