Surgebinders have gemhearts

[Maresia]

 

Quote

Q [33:22]: Do Surgebinders have gemhearts like greatshells do?
A: RAFO.

 

The other night i was thinking about this, about how all the "big" animals (laceryns, chasmfiend, chulls, santhids, the big islands from Rysn interlude, etc) in Roshar have Gemhearts and it is known that some of them are bonded to sprens.So today i found this AMA, and the question got RAFOed .It could be that all big animals have important sprens bonded? and if they are bonded, is this bond the cause of the creation of a Gemheart? and if this is true, then surgebinders have them too. It could be used to store a big amount of stormlight and a heart can easily deliver stormlight through the body. 

 

PD: i hope this is legible enough, cause its 3 am and my english tend to fade away from my brain.

[Levian]

It seems rather strange that a human would somehow get a gem in their body by forming a bond with a Spren, but getting a RAFO rather than a flat out "No" does make you think. I suppose it could be an explanation as to how Surgebinders can hold Stormlight. But it seems strange,  because a gem can hold Stormlight for what... a week or more, depending on the size? We hear of the Stormlight escaping a Surgebinder's body fairly quickly, leaking through their skin and when they breathe.

 

Interesting thought though and probably deserves some more thought but like you said... 3 am hurts the brain

[Argent]

The reason I asked this question was because somebody had pretty much the exact same theory a while back

 

But the Stormlight dissipation rate could be explained in a number of ways. One, it seems like when a Surgebinder draws Stormlight in, it doesn't go to a gemheart or anything, or flows with their breath and blood; at least that's how the descriptions go. Or you could also consider that gemhearts, when they are first pulled out of the greatshell's chrysalis, are pretty raw. Unevenly shaped. And we know that you need a very specific cut for your gem to hold Light - the more imperfect the gem's shape is, the faster it will lose its charge. So that's not really an argument against it. How and why the Voidbringers - the listeners' voidforms? - can hold Stormlight perfectly, that's another good question...

 

This being said, I could never buy into the whole "Surgebinders have gemhearts" theory. It feels too weird to me, I guess. I am more willing to attribute their ability to draw and hold Stormlight to reasons similar to the ones that allowed...

Mistborn: Hero of Ages Spoilers

... Vin to breathe in the mists of Preservation. It seems like the fact that she was an Allomancer, the fact that her spirit web had the correct configuration to let her use that particular aspect of the power of creation, it was this thing that allowed her to directly absorb Preservation's mistified body/power. I'd guess that something similar happens when a Surgebinder draws Stormlight in.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Argent

[1empyrean]

It is an interesting theory, and I wouldn't be disappointed if it did turn out to be true, but I believe that there is a much better explanation for their ability to hold stormlight.  Let me explain.

 

• The nahel bond connects spren to the physical realm, but it probably connects the surgebinder to the cognitive realm as well.
• I believe that this is the cause of increased efficiency with stormlight.  The spren has greater abilities in the physical realm when each oath is spoken, and the surgebinder's abilities also increase.
• Voidbringers (aka parshendi) are more in the cognitive realm, and are said to hold stormlight extremely well.
• Parshendi corpses didn't appear to contain a gemheart.

There is the small issue of why pattern doesn't hold stormlight as well as shallan, but I suspect that there is an explanation, like the one pattern was about to give before shallan stuck an illusion onto him.

[Swimmingly]

Maybe because at that point Pattern is more in the physical than Shallan?

[PorridgeBrick]

I'm rather partial to the theory that surgebinders get gemhearts– that is, Shardplate artificially stores the stormlight externally like gemhearts do naturally in native animals. Basically, a hack to get around the fact that the Surgebinder's biology is not adapted to the planet like native organisms.

Voidbringers are then known for their perfect storage because they do have gemhearts, as the native inhabitants, and don't need artificial plate to hold it for them.

[Rybal]

I'm rather partial to the theory that surgebinders get gemhearts– that is, Shardplate artificially stores the stormlight externally like gemhearts do naturally in native animals. Basically, a hack to get around the fact that the Surgebinder's biology is not adapted to the planet like native organisms.

 

Wait - are you suggesting that Plate is a result of an overload of investiture/Stormlight? That would be pretty cool and would explain its existence, since Stormlight kind of flows out of everything.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Rybal

[PorridgeBrick]

Not a result, no. I think you have to specifically do something, likely swearing an Ideal, in order to get it. It doesn't just naturally form on it's own. It's a construct meant to limit that stormlight flow, to keep it in for the Surgebinder.

[Thought]

A human getting a gemheart would be a fairly drastic physiological transformation: the nearest equivalent I can think of in the Cosmer would be Steel Inquisitors (can a gem carved into a spike be used for Hemalurgy?). That said, I wouldn't be surprised if we come across a surgebinder who pulls a Miles Hundredlives on us (might be useful having a few gems implanted in you, no?)

[Argent]

can a gem carved into a spike be used for Hemalurgy?

RAFO.

[Bramble Thorn]

A human getting a gemheart would be a fairly drastic physiological transformation

Not really. The body can (and has IRL) form and contain quite large masses and polyps. I see a gemheart as similar.

 

WoB is that gem size/mass determines how much stormlight it holds, and cut helps determine the rate of leakage. In this case "holding stormlight perfectly" might be a misnomer. There could very well (and most likely) be leakage, but the rate of leakage is much lower, on the order of days/weeks to empty instead of minutes like flesh has.

 

If a human did get a gemheart, the slow seepage would be at a rate low enough it would duplicate Kaladin's practice of keeping a level of stormlight all the time. It would "hold stormlight perfectly" in that nothing the gemheart naturally radiates ever escapes the skin into the atmosphere; it gets used before then. And if the gemheart. is large enough to last between highstorms...

 

All this is predicated on being able to fill a gem that is inside your body.  Also not really answering the OP. I do not know if a Surgebinger can grow a gemheart. All I know, is if I were Kaladin, who had preliminary surgeon training, is that I would be wanting to have one installed anyway.

[Patrick Star]

I can see this happening.  It could easily be a side effect of stormlight investiture.

 

Also, I'm willing to bet that the gemheart grows and/or improves its purity with each ideal/truth spoken by a radiant.  That's why each ideal improves the surgebinder's ability to store stormlight and the efficiency of using it.

 

Forget having a heart of gold, I'm going to have a heart of emerald!

[Thought]

Not really. The body can (and has IRL) form and contain quite large masses and polyps. I see a gemheart as similar.

 

While the body does indeed form various and sundry masses, those always do one of two things: 1) nothing or 2) something bad. It is the useful development that would be so abnormal. Though I would agree, as noted, that there's a good chance that it would be useful to artificially implant a gem.

[Magnanimous Taz]

We did see those soulcasting ardents with the crystalline eyes. Using stormlight definitely appears to have a physical effect on the user in the long term.

[IronCaf]

We did see those soulcasting ardents with the crystalline eyes. Using stormlight definitely appears to have a physical effect on the user in the long term.

I think using Stormlight probably has similar effects on the soul as using Allomancy, but we haven't seen anything like savants because nobody on Roshar knew how to use very much Stormlight until very recently.  The physical manifestations of using that much investiture, and indeed becoming physically reliant on it, have yet to be seen.  I could see crystalline eyes being part of it, at least.

 

As for Surgebinders having gemhearts, it seems more likely to me to be like what 1empyrean said above: a deepening connection between the Surgebinder and the cognitive realm via the nahel bond with the spren.  That feels more realmatically pleasing to me, but maybe the real problem is a lack of understanding of how gemhearts actually work!

[Cheeky-eyes]

We did see those soulcasting ardents with the crystalline eyes. Using stormlight definitely appears to have a physical effect on the user in the long term.

 

If it is true I think it would be a side effect like that of the Ardents mentioned above. If Surgebinders do have gemhearts I think it would be something that develops over time as they use and hold more and more stormlight than anything they are born with. I can't imagine the side effects of using stormlight being as sever with the Surgebinders as it is with those who aren't bonded to a spren, that is the Nahel bond might diminish the side effects and maybe channels them into a more useful form. 

 

We have seen the side effects of using too much of a Shard's power, (Hero of Ages spoiler)

look at what happened to Spook when he relied on burning insanely high amounts of tin. And these effects seem to be permanent barring the interference of a Shard holder.  

Detrimental side effects can happen but I imagine the sprens interference might offset them somewhat. In one way or another. Growing a gemheart might be that offset. 

[Magnanimous Taz]

@Cheeky-eyes I agree that there are stormlight savants. I don't necessarily think that the effects are as traumatic as those seen in mistborn, because stormlight and the surges function in a different manner than allomancy. I also think that surgebinders growing a gemheart would be a little out there. Do the greatshell gemhearts still function as part of their circulatory system? I mean, they still have blood. How could a crystalline structure operate? Perhaps brandon was hinting at some kind of internal stormlight retention mechanism. Even tho we have yet to see a fully bound radiant, it still seems that they use up stormlight pretty quickly in combat. Maybe they develop some kind of gemheart equivalent to store greater quantities in. *shrugs*

[weebojello]

@Cheeky-eyes I agree that there are stormlight savants. I don't necessarily think that the effects are as traumatic as those seen in mistborn, because stormlight and the surges function in a different manner than allomancy. I also think that surgebinders growing a gemheart would be a little out there. Do the greatshell gemhearts still function as part of their circulatory system? I mean, they still have blood. How could a crystalline structure operate? Perhaps brandon was hinting at some kind of internal stormlight retention mechanism. Even tho we have yet to see a fully bound radiant, it still seems that they use up stormlight pretty quickly in combat. Maybe they develop some kind of gemheart equivalent to store greater quantities in. *shrugs*

My thought has long been that there's a retention system of some sort for maxed out Radiants.

 

The reasoning is this: Heralds go through a lot of stormlight. The purported herald Taln (whomever it really is), appears to me to have a different physiology. This is similar, in my mind, to other entities in the Cosmere that have a "perfected" physiology: The Returned (Warbreaker, Lightbringer, etc) on Nalthis, Elantrians (Raoden, etc) on Sel.

 

Consider then the description of Kaladin with Stormlight. It perfects.

 

So, knowing that we have entities that have a "perfected" physiology on at least two planets, I've thought the Heralds were perfect containers for Stormlight. Given especially that it's not unreasonable to suggest that the first desolations were pretty much just the Heralds going against Odiums forces by themselves / with little or any help. And therefore they'd need vast sums of stored stormlight to take on other entities that have perfect storage.

 

We see this in the prologue in Way of Kings. Kelek meets Jezrien. In the description of them meeting, no where is there stated a "backpack full of spheres" anywhere. Given the amount of stormlight clearly needed for an extended apocalyptic battle, the lack of spheres for the primary powerhouses (Heralds) gives another indication that they themselves housed the stormlight.

 

Now, the spren in copying what Honor did to the Heralds, most likely also have come up with a solution to this problem as well. What that is, I don't know.

 

I had originally thought the spren / human merged in a total symbiosis. However, knowing now that a knight dying while upholding the oaths is not in and of itself a catastrophic event to the spren gives me pause. But I second guess that. The Nahel bond appears to be a connection that is at the outset cognitive initially, merging spiritual with the oaths, allowing for some physical upgrades each time.

 

And so I ponder. And ponder.